Joe Douglas effect

[Chrebetfan80]

1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

Coaches should have minimal input other than to tell the gm i need these positions filled with these type of players imo.

Coaches do not scout all year and I hate the old thing where a coach watched 1/2 hour of film or goes to the combine and falls in love with a player (see rex ryan) and then the gm lets him have input.

The problem here was mac would talk to coaches about what kind of players they wanted for their systems (skill set, build, style of play)  and then Mac would go into the draft and almost completely disregard any of that information and just take guys he thought were right on his board.

Like you said, I'm not sure coaches should have major impact on decsisions unless they've done extensive work up in the offseason scouting, which many dont, but i do think their input on what kind of players they want is important.  Best example of this is Pete Carrol and John Schnieder. They work perfectly together and it always seems like they grab a guy or two in the later rounds that just FITS what they do there perfectly. 

[Gibby]

Build the core baby!!! Be great up front on both sides- build around the young quarterback!!! Skill players are to a degree- a dime a dozen. Yes- there are a few every decade that are great HOF talent, however if the core and quarterback are both top 5-10- you’ll always have a shot every year!! Build it up create a window and give it hell!!! Let’s do it right for once!! 

[32EBoozer]

36 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

Immediate impact players with picks 1-2. 

No excuses. 

 

Apart from proving himself on draft day, I'd like to see him pull off some trades (draft day and prior to camp) and find ingenious ways of managing the CAP as well as dumping bad contracts for some type of draft capital (see Trumaine Johnson). It's easy to cut a player for Cap reasons but a good GM tries to get back something before cutting them.

[joewilly12]

3 minutes ago, 32EBoozer said:

Apart from proving himself on draft day, I'd like to see him pull off some trades (draft day and prior to camp) and find ingenious ways of managing the CAP as well as dumping bad contracts for some type of draft capital (see Trumaine Johnson). It's easy to cut a player for Cap reasons but a good GM tries to get back something before cutting them.

Trumaine Johnson is going to be very hard to trade/move. 

[UnitedWhofans]

7 minutes ago, 32EBoozer said:

Apart from proving himself on draft day, I'd like to see him pull off some trades (draft day and prior to camp) and find ingenious ways of managing the CAP as well as dumping bad contracts for some type of draft capital (see Trumaine Johnson). It's easy to cut a player for Cap reasons but a good GM tries to get back something before cutting them.

Well I mean robbing Dave Gettleman blind is a nice start

[Sarge4Tide]

Wait, the GM is allowed to meet with the regional scouts and discuss prospects?

[Sarge4Tide]

15 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

Trumaine Johnson is going to be very hard to trade/move. 

[Paradis]

38 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

The moment he doesnt hit on 90-100% of his draft picks or makes one mediocre FA signing he'll be ripped to shreds by the ignorant part of the fan base.  It's really sad honestly.  This is a 2-3 year project and should be viewed as so. 

You can already tell from reading the board peoples expectations about this offseason and how blown out of proportion they are.  People have mock off seasons and drafts out with us filling literally almost every hole on the team somehow lol It's not happening, hell, the offensive line probably wont be completely fixed this offseason LET ALONE THE 100 OTHER HOLES.  

People need to temper their expectations of this team an JD this offseason and next year and really realize how big of a hole this team is in and how long it will take to produce a consistent winner out of it.  2-3 years. 

I agree, some are already raking him over the coals for meaningless Band-Aid moves in July. The man hasn’t even had an off-season yet to put his name on the team, yet the mob be like:

 

[#27TheDominator]

11 minutes ago, Paradis said:

I agree, some are already raking him over the coals for meaningless Band-Aid moves in July. The man hasn’t even had an off-season yet to put his name on the team, yet the mob be like:

Why shouldn't we?  People want to kill Maccagnan for paying Winters $7M per for making 38 starts over three years.  It is considered a mistake that most see Douglas as escaping by cutting him this spring.  If that is the environment we are living in, why shouldn't we bust on Douglas for throwing an $8M retirement party for Ryan Kalil? 

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

Why shouldn't we?  People want to kill Maccagnan for paying Winters $7M per for making 38 starts over three years.  It is considered a mistake that most see Douglas as escaping by cutting him this spring.  If that is the environment we are living in, why shouldn't we bust on Douglas for throwing an $8M retirement party for Ryan Kalil? 

As long as you disagreed with the move at the time, great. 

[Paradis]

15 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Why shouldn't we?  People want to kill Maccagnan for paying Winters $7M per for making 38 starts over three years.  It is considered a mistake that most see Douglas as escaping by cutting him this spring.  If that is the environment we are living in, why shouldn't we bust on Douglas for throwing an $8M retirement party for Ryan Kalil? 

No one is ever going to blame a general manager two months into the job who is expected to address the centre position in the middle of July for signing a previous pro bowler to a contract that has zero long-term impact. The optics of that decision not only reflect well, but everybody should be at peace with it. He tried. The other options were what? I’ll hold my breath  

Winters never earned the extension, Period. ....only reason he got one cause so the regime could point to at least one draft pick who made it through the rookie contract

 

[Embrace the Suck]

Yeah, we'll see. The word of NFL insiders isn't worth much. They remind me of public school employees in the sense that most are useless back patters covering each other's rear.

[Jet Nut]

28 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Why shouldn't we?  People want to kill Maccagnan for paying Winters $7M per for making 38 starts over three years.  It is considered a mistake that most see Douglas as escaping by cutting him this spring.  If that is the environment we are living in, why shouldn't we bust on Douglas for throwing an $8M retirement party for Ryan Kalil? 

Because on no level is Kalil as a one year band aid, out of desperation has nothing to do with overpaying a player like Winters for 3 years?  Because he was trying to fix the mess at C that Macc created?  Because everyone thought it was a sound move at the time and has no negative consequences moving forward? 

[#27TheDominator]

34 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

As long as you disagreed with the move at the time, great. 

Bullsh*t. 

We can complain about things that we supported at one time.  I am not saying the move was senseless, but it turned out to be a bad move.  Keep making them and you are screwed.  Personally, I supported the move and don't fault the man for making it, but that doesn't put Ws on the board.

20 minutes ago, Paradis said:

No one is ever going to blame a general manager two months into the job who is expected to address the centre position in the middle of July for signing a previous pro bowler to a contract that has zero long-term impact. The optics of that decision not only reflect well, but everybody should be at peace with it. He tried. The other options were what? I’ll hold my breath  

Winters never earned the extension, Period. ....only reason he got one cause so the regime could point to at least one draft pick who made it through the rookie contract

 

Bullsh*t.

Centre?  Are you European?

Spending Kalil's $8M has the same impact on 2020 as all the other wasted money.  We can't cry that we don't have enough to sign FA offensive linemen and not consider that we lit $8.4M on fire to fund Ryan Kalil's retirement.

Winters was an Idzik pick.  He didn't add any luster to the regime that extended him.  Neither did Enunwa.  

7 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Because on no level is Kalil as a one year band aid, out of desperation has nothing to do with overpaying a player like Winters for 3 years?  Because he was trying to fix the mess at C that Macc created?  Because everyone thought it was a sound move at the time and has no negative consequences moving forward? 

Bullsh*t.

In retrospect, the Kalil deal was way worse than overpaying Winters.  It just seemed more sensible at the time it was done.  One guy was the best G on the team for the bulk of his contract.  Jonotthan Harrison was a significant upgrade over Kalil.  Winters at $5M per would have been a nice bargain, and the difference is still less than we burned on Kalil. 

[Jet Nut]

4 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Bullsh*t.

In retrospect, the Kalil deal was way worse than overpaying Winters.  It just seemed more sensible at the time it was done. 

Total Bullshlt.

Start with the bullshlt needed to try and convince people the situations were the same and have that shlt drip into trying to also convince then that a 3 year commitment is worse than a 1 and done deal that monetarily had no negative consequences to the team.

Sorry, no ones is buying that bullshlt.  ?

[#27TheDominator]

I don't know how I got here. 

Now I am the guy bashing Joe Douglas?  Not particularly, but if he makes a bad move I do not give him an automatic pass because it was July.  He could have stood pat and it would have been significantly better.  Both on the field and with the 2020 cap.  

I also do not defend Maccagnan.  Or Idzik for that matter.  I understand why they made some of the decisions that they made, but that does not make them the right moves.  

Sometimes what looks like the right move - bringing in a former pro bowl C that played 16 games the year before, or trading a 5th for a former all pro G is a waste of time, money and draft capital.  A GM can't be afraid to make moves because the fans will get angry if you reach or draft the wrong position.  **** the fans.  Make the move you think is best.  Be true to yourself. 

[#27TheDominator]

6 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Total Bullshlt.

Start with the bullshlt needed to try and convince people the situations were the same and have that shlt drip into trying to also convince then that a 3 year commitment is worse than a 1 and done deal that monetarily had no negative consequences to the team.

Sorry, no ones is buying that bullshlt.  ?

$21 M for 38 starts vs. $8.4M for 7.  Both subpar.  I guess they were actually pretty similar. 

[Paradis]

18 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Centre?  Are you European?

Spending Kalil's $8M has the same impact on 2020 as all the other wasted money.  We can't cry that we don't have enough to sign FA offensive linemen and not consider that we lit $8.4M on fire to fund Ryan Kalil's retirement.

Winters was an Idzik pick.  He didn't add any luster to the regime that extended him.  Neither did Enunwa.  

. 

Worse. Canadian. 

three reasons why you’re being ridiculous.

First you’re getting far too myopic on this. Who cares there’s more important issues than that one. we get it, it didn’t work out.

Secondly this is his first stint as the GM. Did you walk onto your job the first day an all star in your profession? Maybe he learns a lesson from that and you should take your foot off the gas.

Thirdly, there was staff holdover between those two resumes if I’m not mistaken, but regardless The broad stroke brush didn’t have firm lines, and it was important to extend some homegrown talent on a PR level IMO. That was the optics of both of those extensions. Both were stupid.

[#27TheDominator]

18 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Total Bullshlt.

Start with the bullshlt needed to try and convince people the situations were the same

When did I try to say that the situations were the same?  

Quote

trying to also convince then that a 3 year commitment is worse than a 1 and done deal

You are the one saying that.  I am the one saying that playing a mid-tier player slightly more money than he was probably worth for 3 years is better than throwing money at someone unfit for the league for 1.

Quote

a 1 and done deal that monetarily had no negative consequences to the team.

Isn't taking $8.4M from the 2020 cap a negative consequence?  I get that there is no dead money, but does that really matter?  They still have less for 2020.  Isn't the guy playing worse than his backup a negative consequence?   

Sorry to go on and on.  I am on a very dull conference call and can't access the documents I need to do real work until it is over.

[Jet Nut]

10 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

$21 M for 38 starts vs. $8.4M for 7.  Both subpar.  I guess they were actually pretty similar. 

Winters pay in 2020 $7M, total investment $29M

Kalils pay in 2020 $0.00, total investment $8M

Similar signings

[#27TheDominator]

6 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Worse. Canadian. 

three reasons why you’re being ridiculous.

First you’re getting far too myopic on this. Who cares there’s more important issues than that one. we get it, it didn’t work out.

Secondly this is his first stint as the GM. Did you walk onto your job the first day an all star in your profession? Maybe he learns a lesson from that and you should take your foot off the gas.

Thirdly, there was staff holdover between those two resumes if I’m not mistaken, but regardless The broad stroke brush didn’t have firm lines, and it was important to extend some homegrown talent on a PR level IMO. That was the optics of both of those extensions. Both were stupid.

Totally agree.  The Kalil move seemed sensible and I guess it was worth a shot.  I am not jumping up and down saying that Douglas is horrible and here is exhibit A.  I just don't think 80 should be allowed to act like it was a win. 

[Lith]

7 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

$21 M for 38 starts vs. $8.4M for 7.  Both subpar.  I guess they were actually pretty similar. 

Was not $8.4M.  Was $6.7M.  3 mil signing bonus.  $2.4mil base salary, plus $187,500 for each game he was active.  7 games = $1.3mil plus the $5.4 bonus and base.  He would have had to play all 16 games to earn the $8.4M.  Still in hindsight, it was a mistake.

I look at this differently than some of Macc's moves, largely becasue I want Douglas to succeed.  As with most Jet hires, they get the benefit of the doubt at first because I so desperately want them to work out.  Macc did too; go back to his first year, we loved him.  No GM is going hit on all of his moves.  But as the check marks accumulated on  the wrong side of Macc's ledger, most of us lost faith in him at some point after 2015 but before 2019.

Kalil is a check mark on the wrong side of Douglas' ledger.  No excuses.  I liked the move at the time, it didn't work out.  But I am still willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.  Too many checkmarks on the wrong side of the ledger and at some point, the honeymoon period will end.  But for now, I just hope he nails the upcoming draft and FA.

[#27TheDominator]

4 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Winters pay in 2020 $7M, total investment $29M

Kalils pay in 2020 $0.00, total investment $8M

Similar signings

One guy started 38 games on that contract with a full non-guaranteed year left.  The other started 7.

Similar return.

[Jet Nut]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Quote

When did I try to say that the situations were the same?  

You didnt, you said Kalil was worse.

Quote

You are the one saying that.  I am the one saying that playing a mid-tier player slightly more money than he was probably worth for 3 years is better than throwing money at someone unfit for the league for 1.

And I don't agree.  Macc had plenty of time with Winters and signed him.  Not the same as taking a shot on an ex pro bowl player and totally crossing your fingers in taking a chance that he can be what he was the year before. 

Quote

sn't taking $8.4M from the 2020 cap a negative consequence?  I get that there is no dead money, but does that really matter?  They still have less for 2020.  Isn't the guy playing worse than his backup a negative consequence?   

How are we taking money away from this years cap on Kalil?  He isn't on the payroll

Quote

Sorry to go on and on.  I am on a very dull conference call and can't access the documents I need to do real work until it is over.

That sucks buddy, I remember those well and feel for you.

 

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, Lith said:

Was not $8.4M.  Was $6.7M.  3 mil signing bonus.  $2.4mil base salary, plus $187,500 for each game he was active.  7 games = $1.3mil plus the $5.4 bonus and base.  He would have had to play all 16 games to earn the $8.4M.  Still in hindsight, it was a mistake.

I look at this differently than some of Macc's moves, largely becasue I want Douglas to succeed.  As with most Jet hires, they get the benefit of the doubt at first because I so desperately want them to work out.  Macc did too; go back to his first year, we loved him.  No GM is going hit on all of his moves.  But as the check marks accumulated on  the wrong side of Macc's ledger, most of us lost faith in him at some point after 2015 but before 2019.

Kalil is a check mark on the wrong side of Douglas' ledger.  No excuses.  I liked the move at the time, it didn't work out.  But I am still willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.  Too many checkmarks on the wrong side of the ledger and at some point, the honeymoon period will end.  But for now, I just hope he nails the upcoming draft and FA.

Absolutely.  100%.  This is nothing to indicate that Joe Douglas will be bad at his job.  Simply something that did not work out.  It takes quite a few of those with nothing on the other side to get where we are now.

[Lith]

10 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

How are we taking money away from this years cap on Kalil?  He isn't on the payroll

Cap space carries over from year to year.  Had we not signed Kalil, we would have been able to roll that unused cap space forward to 2020 and had the extra $6.7 mil to spend this year.

[Apache 51]

2 hours ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

The moment he doesnt hit on 90-100% of his draft picks or makes one mediocre FA signing he'll be ripped to shreds by the ignorant part of the fan base.  It's really sad honestly.  This is a 2-3 year project and should be viewed as so. 

You can already tell from reading the board peoples expectations about this offseason and how blown out of proportion they are.  People have mock off seasons and drafts out with us filling literally almost every hole on the team somehow lol It's not happening, hell, the offensive line probably wont be completely fixed this offseason LET ALONE THE 100 OTHER HOLES.  

People need to temper their expectations of this team an JD this offseason and next year and really realize how big of a hole this team is in and how long it will take to produce a consistent winner out of it.  2-3 years. 

Please, common sense and football sense are not allowed here. 

[Beerfish]

Jets fans are sounding much like Edmonton oiler fans in about year 7 if their 15 year disaster (I know I am an oiler fan).

Each guy gets a clean slate, each guy is the greatest thing since sliced bread, after the fact every one knew the guy sucked.

We will know after one fa period and one draft if douglas is the man or not.  One, not two, not three, not 5, one.

Does this mean the team has to be good/great right away?  No.  does the team have to hit on all picks and all fa moves?  No.

But Douglas has to show he knows the steps to building a team and has to actually hit some some fas if we are going to pay  them big dollars.

One off season and we will know.

[Jets723]

1 minute ago, Beerfish said:

Jets fans are sounding much like Edmonton oiler fans in about year 7 if their 15 year disaster (I know I am an oiler fan).

Each guy gets a clean slate, each guy is the greatest thing since sliced bread, after the fact every one knew the guy sucked.

We will know after one fa period and one draft if douglas is the man or not.  One, not two, not three, not 5, one.

Does this mean the team has to be good/great right away?  No.  does the team have to hit on all picks and all fa moves?  No.

But Douglas has to show he knows the steps to building a team and has to actually hit some some fas if we are going to pay  them big dollars.

One off season and we will know.

Great Post Beerfish!!! Like you said Clean Slate.  Douglas never got a chance to have a draft or FA period, he cane in board when it was over.  

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

12 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Jets fans are sounding much like Edmonton oiler fans in about year 7 if their 15 year disaster (I know I am an oiler fan).

Each guy gets a clean slate, each guy is the greatest thing since sliced bread, after the fact every one knew the guy sucked.

We will know after one fa period and one draft if douglas is the man or not.  One, not two, not three, not 5, one.

Does this mean the team has to be good/great right away?  No.  does the team have to hit on all picks and all fa moves?  No.

But Douglas has to show he knows the steps to building a team and has to actually hit some some fas if we are going to pay  them big dollars.

One off season and we will know.

How will we know after one off season if he’s the guy if the team isn’t good right away and doesn’t hit on all the picks? What are you looking for?

[jeremy2020]

The Jets have really hit paydirt with Joe Douglas

[NYJ1]

6 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I have high hopes for Douglas, it won;t take long to figure out if this guy is good or not. 

Like one draft fast. IMO, this team has a LONG way to go before they would be considered SB contenders, BUT one good draft and good luck in regards to injuries and this team could make the playoffs in 2020? I believe that.

[CSNY]

11 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

The Jets have really hit paydirt with Joe Douglas

So far Everything looks and sounds great but. The only way we will know if we hit paydirt with JD is in the next two to three years. If he can draft like Ron Wolf and Walt Michaels who got us Klecko Gastineau Lyons Walker Dierking Kevin Long Buttle Shuler Lyons et al then we will know for sure the Jets are on the way to sustainable success. Boy I sure hope he works out. Incompetence has reigned for far too long in that front office 

[NYJ1]

6 hours ago, Warfish said:

Great, then we should be able to expect a quality draft full of players who are around more than a year or two, and who contribute.

That would be a nice change for us.

That should be the expectation in my opinion. It's been said many times before but decent drafting NFL teams EXPECT and rely on their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round draft choices to be players by the end of their first season. The Jets instead have hit very sparingly on their 1st round picks, even less on their 2nd round draft choices, and who even knows on their 3rd's? The first and 2nd has already been exceedingly BAD. That constitutes truly poor drafting. They squander everything they touch. So I've said this before and I will again Coaching changes do NOT matter until we get a GM that has a clue about drafting.

[NYJ1]

24 minutes ago, Samtorobby47 said:

How will we know after one off season if he’s the guy if the team isn’t good right away and doesn’t hit on all the picks? What are you looking for?

Faster contributions from players first and foremost. Example, Mac didn't have a clue about getting players that contribute immediately. He drafted Darron Lee. Then, ?only contributed to Mac's stupidity by starting him. He was TERRIBLE and had zero earthly business being in the field as a starting player.

IN contrast, Tanny drafted Darelle Revis and David Harris. BOTH of those players Immediately started helping the Jets win games.