Maccagnan passed on Mahomes for Darnold, not Adams

[munchmemory]

Tolstoy had shorter posts.

[Sperm Edwards]

5 hours ago, jgb said:

Admitting the problem is first step toward solving the problem.

Too long to quote but what a great, and painful, chronology of the Suck of Macc.

Perhaps the most brilliant (and succinct!) post you've ever written. This is exactly what would be happening if we had Rosen. Anyone who said "Gee, Rosen doesn't look too good," would be called SOJF losers who secretly hope the team fails. Remember, this fanbase defended Geno Smith, one of the five dumbest starting QBs in NFL history.

It's worse than that. The big defense over Smith (if you want to call it a defense) was that it's better to go with the unlikely plus upside than go with the unlikely plus no upside. I don't recall anyone saying Smith was so great, or that he likely would be if wepponz. A better analogy is Hackenberg, who couldn't pass Bryce Petty - or Geno Smith lol - on the depth chart. One is want to believe in optimism; the other is - as you say, worse SOJF syndrome that "haters" have - the built in excuse that we've never lost an opportunity because any great player would have sucked for us. 

But about the safest bet there is = that if Gettleman took Darnold, and the Jets ended up with Rosen, the blame for that QB's failures would have fully passed onto the Jets' coaches, rather than the guy who drafted him after quasi-tanking the prior season. Safer bet than the bet that we'd end up with Darnold a year in advance (or safer even that we might end up with Darnold sitting at #3). 

[DRJETS]

4 hours ago, Samtorobby47 said:

God he's so awful. I can't believe I once tried defending him. I'm too nice of a person. Just awful all across the board.

Listen, don’t beat yourself up over this.  Right now there many posters here defending the FRAUD.  They will come around before the ship is about to sink.  Some people just see the lights better than others.?

[Charlie Brown]

5 hours ago, Biggs said:

Nobody saw it says something about the draft experts.  AZ would have taken him which is why KC traded ahead of them.  Maybe Andy Reid and Bruce Arians aren't nobody.

Thank you I and others DEFINITELY said draft Mahomes and for folks to now say "no one" saw it is a lie!

Why do folks think that so many are down on Adams out here?  Not because Adams stinks but because Mahomes was a bigger need at a more important position!

Also guess which professional team also saw it? 

The SB winning Chiefs that is who!

That is why they moved up from I think 27 to 10 to get him and this while they had a top 15 to 10 QB already on the team!

No one saw it..

Good Grief!!

[DRJETS]

4 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

Yeah, this is true and looking back it was extremely  risky but Mahomes was not thought to be this QB he became or Alex Smith doesn't  start ahead of him his rookie season.

Clearly a real offensive genius recognized his talent and was in shocked when nobody grabbed him earlier in the first round and traded to get him and the rest is history.  And to think many here were bashing old Andy Reid in the same form as MM, after he was let go by the Eagles.

[More Cowbell]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No. Kansas City was a playoff team and superbowl contender (as are all playoff teams). Almost no HC is going to unnecessarily bench his veteran probowl QB, still playing at the level you want, for a 22 year-old rookie. Not unless that veteran QB is having repeated meltdowns. Every team would love the luxury of bringing a young QB along more slowly, while still winning double-digit games along the way. Few want to play rookie QBs; it just ends up that way because of pressure (not many have Reid's clout) and circumstance (not many 1st round QBs go to teams who already have a probowl QB). 

As it was they won 10 games and I hardly thing one could peg the Oakland or Jets losses on Alex Smith. Once that rookie season was over, losing in the playoffs by a point, and Reid had a better handle on what he had in both players (and what he didn't), and then he traded Smith, deciding that the x-factor was worth the risk of being an also-ran for even longer. 

With this argument you'd think KC was a 5-11 Jets team with Smith in at QB. It's a poor situational comparison. A better comparison is Aaron Rodgers getting drafted in round 1 by Green Bay while the Packers still had Favre. 

FFS Maccagnan couldn't even know for sure if Darnold would be in the 2018 draft. What if Darnold got injured, or just simply had a playing setback junior year because of key teammate injuries, and decided to return for his senior season? Then on top of that makes subsequent moves to reduce the chances of getting this player, while ignoring the building blocks that would be necessary if he somehow got exactly what he wanted. Only a fool makes a low percentage gamble this - like gambling blackjack, I don't know, like splitting 10s into a deck weak in 10s against an A -- you could still win, and clean up double at that, but don't kid yourself: a lucky fool is still a fool.

I would say the splitting 10 analogy is a bit of an exaggeration because what Mac did wasn't totally insane and stupid but point taken. It worked out anyway you look at it and between the two prospects coming out of college, Darnold was the higher prospect so Mac thought he was worth waiting for. Can we fault him for this, apparently by the number of trade Adams and Darnold threads we see here and now that Mahomes is a SB champ. 

[More Cowbell]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

Everyone knew?  Everyone?  Then why were we wasting roster spots carrying 4 QBs?  I am sure it included the players.  I am far from sure that it included Maccagnan, and it further highlights how stupid he was to pass on both Mahomes and Watson.  

Adams is a good player.  Maybe a great one.  They were planning to waste 1/4 of his low priced controlled years on a season where they were begging to lose?  How ******* stupid.  QBs are a commodity.  If they show anything they have value.  If they'd drafted one of the others and he showed even modest ability they could have traded him for value.  Rosen blows donkeys and he got back a 2nd and 5th.  sh*t, even Hackenberg got a conditional pick.

Yes, it was painfully obvious that both Petty and Hack should have been cut. Why we carried them, I have no idea but I fully agree that by that time the experiment should have been over. 

Trying to defend Mac for passing on Mahomes or Watson is indefensible so I am not trying. The numbers prove he miscalculated on them.  All I am doing is discussing the logic behind it and if you asked me before the draft if we should take Mahomes or Watson, or Adams, I would have picked Adams because I was also all in on a shot at Darnold, Mayfield, or Rosen, I just didn't want  Allen or Jackson. 

It worked out is all I can say.  

[JustInFudge]

I wish I could find the thread where I was continually bashed by basically the entire board (funny how hindsight is 20/20) for saying that the 17 class was better than the 18 class.  Those were the days! 

 

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, JiF said:

I wish I could find the thread where I was continually bashed by basically the entire board (funny how hindsight is 20/20) for saying that the 17 class was better than the 18 class.  Those were the days! 

 

There are so many!

[CTM]

1 minute ago, JiF said:

I wish I could find the thread where I was continually bashed by basically the entire board (funny how hindsight is 20/20) for saying that the 17 class was better than the 18 class.  Those were the days! 

 

Why do you hate Sam Dahnald?

[JustInFudge]

3 minutes ago, CTM said:

Why do you hate Sam Dahnald?

I love him now but I was making the Sanchez/Hackenberg Orange Bowl comparisons back then...when I was told Watson and Mahomes were 3rd RD (at best) prospects. 

[CTM]

15 minutes ago, JiF said:

I love him now but I was making the Sanchez/Hackenberg Orange Bowl comparisons back then...when I was told Watson and Mahomes were 3rd RD (at best) prospects. 

Didnt need a serious answer there lol

[DRJETS]

39 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Yes, it was painfully obvious that both Petty and Hack should have been cut. Why we carried them, I have no idea but I fully agree that by that time the experiment should have been over. 

Trying to defend Mac for passing on Mahomes or Watson is indefensible so I am not trying. The numbers prove he miscalculated on them.  All I am doing is discussing the logic behind it and if you asked me before the draft if we should take Mahomes or Watson, or Adams, I would have picked Adams because I was also all in on a shot at Darnold, Mayfield, or Rosen, I just didn't want  Allen or Jackson. 

It worked out is all I can say.  

It worked for who? The Chiefs or the Jets?  Im confused.  I’m one of the biggest Sam believers here but for the love of God, the other dude was just named the mvp of the SB and had been breaking QB record at unprecedented level.  

[JustInFudge]

21 minutes ago, CTM said:

Didnt need a serious answer there lol

This is serious business.  

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It's worse than that. The big defense over Smith (if you want to call it a defense) was that it's better to go with the unlikely plus upside than go with the unlikely plus no upside. I don't recall anyone saying Smith was so great, or that he likely would be if wepponz. A better analogy is Hackenberg, who couldn't pass Bryce Petty - or Geno Smith lol - on the depth chart. One is want to believe in optimism; the other is - as you say, worse SOJF syndrome that "haters" have - the built in excuse that we've never lost an opportunity because any great player would have sucked for us. 

But it's about the safest bet there is that if Gettleman took Darnold, and the Jets ended up with Rosen, the blame for that QB's failures would have fully passed onto the Jets' coaches, rather than the guy who drafted him after quasi-tanking the prior season. Safer bet that we'd end up with Darnold a year in advance (or safer even that we might end up with Darnold sitting at #3). 

I do remember the "weaponz" argument spilling over to Geno from Sanchez. However, it seems a lot of old posts aren't available or searchable. But nevertheless, point well taken.

[Sperm Edwards]

49 minutes ago, jgb said:

I do remember the "weaponz" argument spilling over to Geno from Sanchez. However, it seems a lot of old posts aren't available or searchable. But nevertheless, point well taken.

That is strange (search tool) but going off memory I recall it more as meh let's just see what happens with wepponz since we're not a SB team with Fitz anyway rather than he will be a good/great QB if only wepponz. Not a subtle difference to me, but this was years ago.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

That is strange (search tool) but going off memory I recall it more as meh let's just see what happens with wepponz since we're not a SB team with Fitz anyway rather than he will be a good/great QB if only wepponz. Not a subtle difference to me, but this was years ago.

I almost got banned arguing against the Genoids. Don't take the drama from that epic battle lol.

Honestly relieved we didn't draft Rosen. I'd definitely get banned if we did.

[More Cowbell]

1 hour ago, DRJETS said:

It worked for who? The Chiefs or the Jets?  Im confused.  I’m one of the biggest Sam believers here but for the love of God, the other dude was just named the mvp of the SB and had been breaking QB record at unprecedented level.  

What I meant is with ass backwards way we went about getting a FQB, it worked out. 

[Zerovoltz]

On 2/2/2020 at 10:54 PM, DJF71 said:

And he wouldn't have won a SB for the Jets.  Mahomes went to the perfect situation with a loaded team.  The Jet will never be a perfect situation and are far from loaded.

 

On 2/3/2020 at 6:50 AM, rangerous said:

the article is dated 2018.  it's really old news.  maybe mac was waiting on darnold's class maybe not.  in the end he had to rely on bonehead drafting by the browns and giants to draft darnold.  and even that was at the cost of 2 second rounders.  not exactly a great plan.  as for mahomes, imo it's doubtful he would've had the same success with the jets.  mac was still drafting dline and reaching on players in the 4th+ rounds.  but he's a heck of a qb and fun to watch.  good for the chief.  it's also nice a former afl team won (besides the patsies).

This narrative is wrong and lazy.

If the argument is "would Mahomes have been able to land in NY and pass for 5000 and 50 TD....then sure...but assume Mahomes isn't an absolute stud/unicorn of a QB is completely wrong.  Mahomes would have come in and lifted up whatever talent was around...even bad talent like the Jets have.  You'd be instant contenders and would be a dangerous playoff team because he's that guy that makes it happen when it has to happen.  It would be evident you had a special talent at QB on your team right away....it wouldn't even be debatalbe....you'd see it.

Fruthermore.....Andy Ried IS a very good coach...he is a creative play caller and designer.  He is a big plus for Mahomes.  However, if all there was too this QB buisness was having good weapons and good schemes...Alex Smith and Andy Ried should have been 5 time SB champs.  KC moved on from a Pro Bowl, division winning QB who was a good QB, and all around great guy, who they spent big draft capital on to move up for....they knew what he was when they went to go get him.....and that was a QB who could.......carry a team and lift the talent...make a bad O line look good, and on and on.  He landed in a spot where his talent got him a 5000/50 season....wich is great.....but there is no reason at all to think he wouldn't have gone 28 TD 13 INTS and 4200 on a bad Jets squad and had you guys competing for a playoff spot.  He would have.

On that note.....it's also kind of silly to say that drafting a Darnold or anyone else doens't matter because ....."we are the Jets".  I get it....your franchise has been disfunctional for a while...but you get out of that by aquiring great players....and assuming they will all be cursed because they on your squad is defeatist.  KC had NEVER won a home playoff game at Arrowhead until Mahomes did it...that place opened in 1972.  Mahomes is 3-1 in playoff games at arrowhead and he is 3-0 in games that weren't tied at the end of regulation.  Hell....Mahomes is 2-0 in playoff games where the opposing team blocked a punt and returned it for a TD...great players overcome bad rosters, bad history, etc.  Mahomes is that kind of guy.  he'd be a GREAT player on any team including yours.

 

 

[Matt39]

Nothing you can do, but it just illustrates everything was broken with the Jets scouting and talent eval process. 

[THE BARON]

At the time he was drafted, Mahomes was a guy with "upside" that few GM's out there were considering to be a first round pick, much less a top ten overall pick.  

I don't find any cause with any of the GM's that passed on Mahomes.  

Mahomes is a guy that worked out.  Just that simple.

With regard to Darnold, I thought he would be the best QB prospect in the 2018 draft from the start of the 2017 college season all the way up to the time he was drafted.  Like everyone else, I saw lots of uncanny ability to complete very difficult passes while under pressure.  Also saw maturity and a guy that maintains an even strain regardless of the situation. 

I also saw a QB that makes some head-scratching blunders even when forcing the ball is absolutely not needed or called for.  Obvious mental lapses.   IMHO, that is not going to go away.  He's going to be that same QB, but with more polish and skill as he gets experience....

The BIG question is...

When the big game is on the line, will he be the Darnold that makes the head-scratching blunder, or will he be the Darnold that pulls a rabbit out of a hat.

The answer to this question will define his career.

[rangerous]

22 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

This narrative is wrong and lazy.

If the argument is "would Mahomes have been able to land in NY and pass for 5000 and 50 TD....then sure...but assume Mahomes isn't an absolute stud/unicorn of a QB is completely wrong.  Mahomes would have come in and lifted up whatever talent was around...even bad talent like the Jets have.  You'd be instant contenders and would be a dangerous playoff team because he's that guy that makes it happen when it has to happen.  It would be evident you had a special talent at QB on your team right away....it wouldn't even be debatalbe....you'd see it.

Fruthermore.....Andy Ried IS a very good coach...he is a creative play caller and designer.  He is a big plus for Mahomes.  However, if all there was too this QB buisness was having good weapons and good schemes...Alex Smith and Andy Ried should have been 5 time SB champs.  KC moved on from a Pro Bowl, division winning QB who was a good QB, and all around great guy, who they spent big draft capital on to move up for....they knew what he was when they went to go get him.....and that was a QB who could.......carry a team and lift the talent...make a bad O line look good, and on and on.  He landed in a spot where his talent got him a 5000/50 season....wich is great.....but there is no reason at all to think he wouldn't have gone 28 TD 13 INTS and 4200 on a bad Jets squad and had you guys competing for a playoff spot.  He would have.

On that note.....it's also kind of silly to say that drafting a Darnold or anyone else doens't matter because ....."we are the Jets".  I get it....your franchise has been disfunctional for a while...but you get out of that by aquiring great players....and assuming they will all be cursed because they on your squad is defeatist.  KC had NEVER won a home playoff game at Arrowhead until Mahomes did it...that place opened in 1972.  Mahomes is 3-1 in playoff games at arrowhead and he is 3-0 in games that weren't tied at the end of regulation.  Hell....Mahomes is 2-0 in playoff games where the opposing team blocked a punt and returned it for a TD...great players overcome bad rosters, bad history, etc.  Mahomes is that kind of guy.  he'd be a GREAT player on any team including yours.

 

 

any comment about probably not having the same with the jets had he been drafted by them has nothing to do with mahomes.  it has everything to do with the jets organization at the time.  

[LAD_Brooklyn]

On 2/3/2020 at 4:47 AM, jgb said:

If Jets stayed put we'd be in the middle of a huge board civil war right now between the "Rosenites" and the "Rosen haters."

Would make the old Geno debate appear peaceable.

We would of drafted Allen or are you saying Macc would have preferred Rosen?

[jgb]

Just now, LAD_Brooklyn said:

We would of drafted Allen or are you saying Macc would have preferred Rosen?

Rosen 100%.