Idzik v. Macc: The Final Word

[Anthony Jet]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

His "gut" should have noted that he couldn't complete 60 % of his throws against Indiana in 4 tries.  

Agreed. And that shows how bad he was as a scout, a scout what he supposedly made his bones as, he was absolutely terrible as it turns out he was in all things football 

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, Anthony Jet said:

People just see the names and don’t realize how terrible Mac was at asset management and team building 

Yep.  And it's not even a matter of me thinking Idzik was any good.  He sucked horribly.  I started threads here making fun of the "Idzik 12" years after that draft happened.

It's just that Macc was THAT bad.  Arguably worse that Matt Millen, which would make him the worst GM of all-time.  And that's not at all an exaggeration.  

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, Anthony Jet said:

Agreed. And that shows how bad he was as a scout, a scout what he supposedly made his bones as, he was absolutely terrible as it turns out he was in all things football 

Its no wonder he was close to getting fired by the Texans prior to the Jets handing him a lifeline for no good reason.

[GREENBEAN]

11 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Eh, I think I remember a quote by Macc where he said Petty could be a good backup, or something like that. 

Which is fair.  If you use a 4th rounder on a QB and he ends up a solid backup, its a win.  You save money on the backup QB position (which can cost up to $8M per for a high-end backup) for 4 years and if he shows ANYTHING in those 4 years, sometimes you can trade him away or get a compensatory pick out of the deal.  Like Matt Flynn, for instance.  It's why you pretty much want to draft a QB in every draft, within reason.

I don't think Petty was every considered the future here, and that's OK.  Using a 4th on a QB and getting the next Kirk Cousins is very rare.  So I won't kill Macc for that particular pick.  It's how he handled the QB position with every other pick/QB signing (aside from Bridgewater, which was a smart move) that was the problem.  

I remember us trading up a bit to ensure we grabbed Petty. Macchiato's liked him enough to use 2 picks to get him. At least that's how I remember it. That's not saying much though. lol 

 

[ZachEY]

Only one of these guys had Christian Hackenberg, Bryce Petty, and Josh McCown as their QBs and took a strong safety over a future early-career league and super bowl MVP.  Then, traded 4 high picks blind to ultimately luck into a guy who isn’t half as talented, when it could have gone much worse, and all the while the guy we got has no chance to succeed because only one of these guys apparently didn’t know offensive lines were a thing.

[Sperm Edwards]

On 2/4/2020 at 6:24 AM, jgb said:

Geno was one of the easiest bust calls in recent memory. Hackenberg and Rosen round out the top 3. If it wasn’t for Gettlemen, the Jets would’ve drafted all three of these bums.

This thought hadn’t occurred to me in this way (as the last step in a string).

2013...meh, there weren’t any actual starting QBs in that draft, except the ones who (like Geno) started en route to being exposed. The best QB of that draft was Glennon, followed by Geno. The GM wanted to move on from Sanchez, so there’d be a QB in place when Mr. Buttfumble became cuttable. Hey, at least we didn’t use a 1st rounder on him where he was projected . It’s not like 2016 where we took a bust and there were 3 other probowlers we had the chance to take instead.

From 2012-2017 the Jets passed up opportunities to draft 10 probowl QBs: Wilson ‘12, Bridgewater ‘14, Carr ‘14, Garoppolo ‘14, Cousins ‘15, Wentz ‘16, Goff ‘16, Dak ‘16, Watson ‘17, and Mahomes ‘17. 

Instead the Jets chose: extending Sanchez for 2 more guaranteed seasons, trading for Tim Tebow, drafting Geno Smith, trading for Fitzpatrick, drafting Bryce Petty, re-signing Fitzpatrick + extending Mo, and signing McCown. 

And yes, if not for Gettleman overthinking draft grades and giving undue loyalty to and belief in 37 year-old Eli Manning - who’d just been benched (for Geno Smith), mind you - yes, you could add Josh Rosen to that list and the Jets’ QB Failure list would extend well past 2017. 

[Jetsfan80]

48 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Only one of these guys had Christian Hackenberg, Bryce Petty, and Josh McCown as their QBs and took a strong safety over a future early-career league and super bowl MVP.  Then, traded 4 high picks blind to ultimately luck into a guy who isn’t half as talented, when it could have gone much worse, and all the while the guy we got has no chance to succeed because only one of these guys apparently didn’t know offensive lines were a thing.

+ offered Kirk Cousins more money than 31 other GMs.  It was only because the Jets' roster sucked so much that Cousins turned us down and saved us from that "no-mans land" fate that only @Warfish still wants.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

This thought hadn’t occurred to me in this way (as the last step in a string).

2013...meh, there weren’t any actual starting QBs in that draft, except the ones who (like Geno) started en route to being exposed. The best QB of that draft was Glennon, followed by Geno. The GM wanted to move on from Sanchez, so there’d be a QB in place when Mr. Buttfumble became cuttable. Hey, at least we didn’t use a 1st rounder on him where he was projected . It’s not like 2016 where we took a bust and there were 3 other probowlers we had the chance to take instead.

From 2012-2017 the Jets passed up opportunities to draft 10 probowl QBs: Wilson ‘12, Bridgewater ‘14, Carr ‘14, Garoppolo ‘14, Cousins ‘15, Wentz ‘16, Goff ‘16, Dak ‘16, Watson ‘17, and Mahomes ‘17. 

Instead the Jets chose: extending Sanchez for 2 more guaranteed seasons, trading for Tim Tebow, drafting Geno Smith, trading for Fitzpatrick, drafting Bryce Petty, re-signing Fitzpatrick + extending Mo, and signing McCown. 

And yes, if not for Gettleman overthinking draft grades and giving undue loyalty to and belief in 37 year-old Eli Manning - who’d just been benched (for Geno Smith), mind you - yes, you could add Josh Rosen to that list and the Jets’ QB Failure list would extend well past 2017. 

 

I'm amazed there are still people who defend any Jets GM's of this century.  

[JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Its no wonder he was close to getting fired by the Texans prior to the Jets handing him a lifeline for no good reason.

Yeah but how do you get UPPED to GM when you’re just about to get FIRED as a Scout????

How the f**k does that happen???

I guess only if you have an idiot black sheep Johnson as the owner of the team who is going to make you GM, and he’s too busy hobnobbing at political events than to do even the simplest of due diligence?

Even the Miser Mets would never make a mistake this bad, in hiring that Stumblebum.

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

Yeah but how do you get UPPED to GM when you’re just about to get FIRED as a Scout????

How the f**k does that happen???

I guess only if you have an idiot black sheep Johnson as the owner of the team who is going to make you GM, and he’s too busy hobnobbing at political events than to do even the simplest of due diligence?

Even the Miser Mets would never make a mistake this bad, in hiring that Stumblebum.

 

The Johnson's were asked by Tagliabue to hire an under-qualified Herm Edwards, so they did.

Korn Ferry told the Johnson's to hire John Idzik, so they did.  

Casserly told the Johnson's to hire Macc, so they did.

Gase told the Johnson's to hire Joe Douglas, so they did.  

 

For an ownership group that constantly likes to meddle in individual player decisions to the detriment of the team (like with Tebow and probably with Jamal Adams), they simultaneously don't have a mind of their own.  

[jgb]

13 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

This thought hadn’t occurred to me in this way (as the last step in a string).

2013...meh, there weren’t any actual starting QBs in that draft, except the ones who (like Geno) started en route to being exposed. The best QB of that draft was Glennon, followed by Geno. The GM wanted to move on from Sanchez, so there’d be a QB in place when Mr. Buttfumble became cuttable. Hey, at least we didn’t use a 1st rounder on him where he was projected . It’s not like 2016 where we took a bust and there were 3 other probowlers we had the chance to take instead.

From 2012-2017 the Jets passed up opportunities to draft 10 probowl QBs: Wilson ‘12, Bridgewater ‘14, Carr ‘14, Garoppolo ‘14, Cousins ‘15, Wentz ‘16, Goff ‘16, Dak ‘16, Watson ‘17, and Mahomes ‘17. 

Instead the Jets chose: extending Sanchez for 2 more guaranteed seasons, trading for Tim Tebow, drafting Geno Smith, trading for Fitzpatrick, drafting Bryce Petty, re-signing Fitzpatrick + extending Mo, and signing McCown. 

And yes, if not for Gettleman overthinking draft grades and giving undue loyalty to and belief in 37 year-old Eli Manning - who’d just been benched (for Geno Smith), mind you - yes, you could add Josh Rosen to that list and the Jets’ QB Failure list would extend well past 2017. 

I actually don't kill Idzik over Geno. As you say, Geno was seen as a first rounder at the beginning of his Sr. season (perhaps even the #1). Given the status of the Jets QB room at the time, it was a reasonable risk to take him despite the character red flags in the 2nd round.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

I actually don't kill Idzik over draft Geno. As you say, Geno was seen as a first rounder at the beginning of his Sr. season (perhaps ever the #1). Given the status of the Jets QB room at the time, it was a reasonable risk to take him despite the character red flags in the 2nd round.

Yep.  Just like I don't kill Tannenbaum for trading up for Sanchez.  Especially since we paid about 25 cents on the dollar in that trade-up compared to what some teams have to give away to move up for a QB.  

Where he went wrong was handing Sanchez a massive extension so his feelings wouldn't be hurt for Tanny going after Peyton Manning.  At least we didn't make that mistake with Geno.

Sanchez's net worth is listed at $40M.  40 million dollars.  For Mr. Buttfumble.  What in the actual f**k.  

[Warfish]

10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

+ offered Kirk Cousins more money than 31 other GMs.  It was only because the Jets' roster sucked so much that Cousins turned us down and saved us from that "no-mans land" fate that only @Warfish still wants.

I want a top 10 NFL QB who can make the playoffs, whomever that guy is. 

I hope it's Sam, so far it's not been.

And lets be honest, no one outside Jets Fandom thinks Sam > Kirk today, this is only a meme here.  Fans outside the bubble would take Kirk over Sam today, of that I have no doubt whatsoever.

[JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

The Johnson's were asked by Tagliabue to hire an under-qualified Herm Edwards, so they did.

Korn Ferry told the Johnson's to hire John Idzik, so they did.  

Casserly told the Johnson's to hire Macc, so they did.

Gase told the Johnson's to hire Joe Douglas, so they did.  

 

For an ownership group that constantly likes to meddle in individual player decisions to the detriment of the team (like with Tebow and probably with Jamal Adams), they simultaneously don't have a mind of their own.  

They’re both idiots, black sheep of their family.

Wish they’d just sell the team instead of holding it hostage, like every other pro NY franchise outside of the Yankees and maybe the Giants.

I mean how much money does one really need. It’s like the Mets.  The Wilpons were in on the initial 20M purchase of the entire team in 1980 and yet just quashed a deal for close to $3Billion.  They know the fans hate them.  Similar to Jet ownership.  Just take your money and go.

[#27TheDominator]

2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

And lets be honest, no one outside Jets Fandom thinks Sam > Kirk today, this is only a meme here.  Fans outside the bubble would take Kirk over Sam today, of that I have no doubt whatsoever.

I do not know that is true.  QB for QB for a game?  Sure.  That is not the case though.  The case is Kirk Cousins 2018-2020 @$84M fully guaranteed vs. Sam Darnold @ $30M for 2018-2021 with a team option for 2022.  I think plenty of people prefer Darnold in that scenario. 

[RichardTodd27]

No doubt in my mind we'd be better off with Idzik (the lesser of 2 evils).

Mainly because he seemed to pay attention to the O-line. Drafted Winters, Aboushi, Dozier, etc... All serviceable.

 

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I do not know that is true.  QB for QB for a game?  Sure.  That is not the case though.  The case is Kirk Cousins 2018-2020 @$84M fully guaranteed vs. Sam Darnold @ $30M for 2018-2021 with a team option for 2022.  I think plenty of people prefer Darnold in that scenario. 

 

Yep.  Can't operate in a vacuum where we're just choosing Cousins over Darnold.

Cousins is absolutely a better QB than Darnold, especially at this point in Sam's career.  Sam may one day be better than Cousins but not yet.  

The problem is that as bad as our roster is, it'd be far worse when spending all that money on Cousins.  We'd perpetually be stuck with a 7-9 record year in and year out.  

Meanwhile, Cousins is 31, and you'd have to be worrying about giving him yet another contract/franchising him after the 2020 season had he signed here.  The alternative being letting him hit free agency and trying to acquire a rookie QB with a middling 1st round pick OR reentering the free agent QB market.  

Sam at least gives us the opportunity to have a homegrown franchise QB for the next decade.  Or, at the very least, we have him through 2022 on a team-controlled, cheap contract.

[Warfish]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

I do not know that is true.  QB for QB for a game?  Sure.  That is not the case though.  The case is Kirk Cousins 2018-2020 @$84M fully guaranteed vs. Sam Darnold @ $30M for 2018-2021 with a team option for 2022.  I think plenty of people prefer Darnold in that scenario. 

Actually, the case WAS:

1. Kirk Cousins @ $30 million a year of Cap Space only.

2. Use of a 1st Round Pick and 3x 2nd Round Picks to acquire Sam Darnold.

So far through two years, Kirk has been a top 10 NFL QB twice in Minny and made the playoffs once.

Sam, on the other hand, showed flashes vs the worst teams in the NFL after we fell to 1-7.

In part the decision to invest so much capital into drafting Sam Darnold is, in part, why we are so talent deficient today. 

We spent a boatload of high-round picks that should have been long-term starters to get him.  This is compounded by the horrible drafting of the Jets the past oh, few decades or so.  A 1st rounder and three 2nd rounders is most of an O-line.  We gave away almost an entire 10-year O-line to get Sam, instead of Kirk.

It's funny now with Adams, that money suddenly means nothing to the very same Fans who screamed about it during the period when Macc was desperately trying (and failing) to sign Kirk Cousins.

Four 1st and 2nd round O-linemen + Kirk vs. Sam and the cap space we didn't really fully use anyway.

Yeah, real tough choice.....

[Warfish]

8 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The problem is that as bad as our roster is, it'd be far worse when spending all that money on Cousins.  We'd perpetually be stuck with a 7-9 record year in and year out.  

Except it wouldn't, as detailed above.

We spent 4 top picks to get Sam.  Sign Kirk, we keep all four picks to use on whatever (O-line!!!!  WR!!!!!) on rookie deals.

The only argument FOR Sam is "he will one day be better than Kirk ever could and will win deeper into the playoffs".

Which I hope is true.....but it certainly isn't yet.

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Actually, the case WAS:

1. Kirk Cousins @ $30 million a year of Cap Space only.

Oh, that's all?

Yeah, that wouldn't cripple our ability to build a roster around him or anything.  

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Except it wouldn't, as detailed above.

We spent 4 top picks to get Sam.  Sign Kirk, we keep all four picks to use on whatever (O-line!!!!) for rookie deals.

The only argument FOR Sam is "he will one day be better than Kirk ever could and will win deeper into the playoffs".

Which I hope is true.....but it certainly isn't yet.

 

Well if it were up to me neither of those guys would be our QB.  We'd have Deshaun Watson right now PLUS all those picks we surrendered to move from 6 to 3.  

Trading up to 3 was only smart in hindsight because we ended up getting our top guy.  It was reckless moving up from 6 to 3 when you consider our QB could very easily have been Rosen or Allen right now (2 guys who may well been available for us at 6).  

Knowing what we know, the picks we gave up to get to 3 were really not that significant when compared to what other teams have given up for QB's.  If Sam ends up the real deal no one will care about much that down the road.  It's only because Sam is a question mark right now that we debate the merits of that trade.

[UntouchableCrew]

There's a case to be made that Mac was worse.

Mac

1) Had significantly more time.

2) Had no discernible plan. He didn't seem to understand positional value and neglected the offensive line to a criminal extent.

3) Drafted poorly and signed FA busts left and right.

4) Lucked into Darnold but only after passing on Mahomes.

Idzik, for all his faults seemed to have a smart plan -- acquire picks, build through the draft, etc. He just drafted so unfathomably poorly and was such a goof with the media that he couldn't be salvaged. I think Idzik was more of a joke and his tenure basically had no positives so I voted for him, but Mac was also dreadful and had fewer excuses.

[Warfish]

15 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Oh, that's all?

Yeah, that wouldn't cripple our ability to build a roster around him or anything.  

Given we didn't spend all our cap space, and a huge chuck on it we did spend was on a LB who was hurt all year and a RB who didn't produce.....yeah, I think we'd have been ok, especially with those four extra top draft picks.  We certainly wouldn't have been worse.

Listen, if you think it was the right choice, why do you (and others) constantly keep bringing up Cousins?  Sounds like overcompensation and deflection to me.  

Sam is one of the worst QB's in the NFL through two years.  But JN thinks he's the 2nd best QB in the AFC.

There is certainly a disconnect, but it's not me mate.  Be assured, there is no Sam vs. Cousins debate outside Jets Fan Nation today.

[Warfish]

12 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Well if it were up to me neither of those guys would be our QB.  We'd have Deshaun Watson right now PLUS all those picks we surrendered to move from 6 to 3. 

And if one cared to look at old posts, they'd know that I was a huge supporter of drafting Watson with out #1 pick that year.

So clearly I preferred Watson (@1st Round Pick) > Cousins (@$30 mil.) > Sam (and all those picks needed to get a chance to get him).

The two QB's I preferred were both playoff QB's in 2019.  Yet I get called out every day here for being "wrong" about our QB's, lol.

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Given we didn't spend all our cap space, and a huge chuck on it we did spend was on a LB who was hurt all year and a RB who didn't produce.....yeah, I think we'd have been ok, especially with those four extra top draft picks.  We certainly wouldn't have been worse.

Listen, if you think it was the right choice, why do you (and others) constantly keep bringing up Cousins?  Sounds like overcompensation and deflection to me.  

Sam is one of the worst QB's in the NFL through two years.  But JN thinks he's the 2nd best QB in the AFC.

There is certainly a disconnect, but it's not me mate.  Be assured, there is no Sam vs. Cousins debate outside Jets Fan Nation today.

 

I do it because I know I can always count on you to run in here and defend Kirk.  It's fun for me.  

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

And if one cared to look at old posts, they'd know that I was a huge supporter of drafting Watson with out #1 pick that year.

So clearly I preferred Watson (@1st Round Pick) > Cousins (@$30 mil.) > Sam (and all those picks needed to get a chance to get him).

My man.   

 

 

Good thing you, me and @dbatesman were all on that Watson train from the start.  @JiF wanted Trubisky that year, I think.  

@CTM

[Warfish]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I do it because I know I can always count on you to run in here and defend Kirk.  It's fun for me.  

Whatever makes you happy I guess.  

 

[CTM]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Good thing you, me and @dbatesman were all on that Watson train from the start.  @JiF wanted Trubisky that year, I think.  

@CTM

I distinctly remember jif banging his favorite dildo on the table like a giant gavel and screaming Trubisky! We must draft Trubisky!!

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, CTM said:

I distinctly remember jif banging his favorite dildo on the table like a giant gavel and screaming Trubisky! We must draft Trubisky!!

Probably due to him being a big UNC guy from Jacksonville, NC.  

[CTM]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Probably due to him being a big UNC guy from Jacksonville, NC.  

True, I wish he'd shut up about how great NC is all the time.

[#27TheDominator]

21 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Actually, the case WAS:

1. Kirk Cousins @ $30 million a year of Cap Space only.

2. Use of a 1st Round Pick and 3x 2nd Round Picks to acquire Sam Darnold.

So far through two years, Kirk has been a top 10 NFL QB twice in Minny and made the playoffs once.

Sam, on the other hand, showed flashes vs the worst teams in the NFL after we fell to 1-7.

In part the decision to invest so much capital into drafting Sam Darnold is, in part, why we are so talent deficient today. 

We spent a boatload of high-round picks that should have been long-term starters to get him.  This is compounded by the horrible drafting of the Jets the past oh, few decades or so.  A 1st rounder and three 2nd rounders is most of an O-line.  We gave away almost an entire 10-year O-line to get Sam, instead of Kirk.

It's funny now with Adams, that money suddenly means nothing to the very same Fans who screamed about it during the period when Macc was desperately trying (and failing) to sign Kirk Cousins.

Four 1st and 2nd round O-linemen + Kirk vs. Sam and the cap space we didn't really fully use anyway.

Yeah, real tough choice.....

Fair enough.  That is true, but the decision to give the picks should also have been counting on the contracts.  So, the actual comparison is:

Cousins for 3@$30M + 2018 #6 (Quenton Nelson) + 2018 #37 (Braden Smith) + 2018 #49 (Dallas Goedert) + 2019 #34 (Rock Ya-Sin)

vs.

Sam Darnold for 4 @$8.5M with a team option for a 5th year.  

There is more in Cousins favor than in my initial post, but it still far from saying it is cut and dried "Cousins is better than Darnold."  

[JustInFudge]

32 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

My man.   

 

 

Good thing you, me and @dbatesman were all on that Watson train from the start.  @JiF wanted Trubisky that year, I think.  

@CTM

 

26 minutes ago, CTM said:

I distinctly remember jif banging his favorite dildo on the table like a giant gavel and screaming Trubisky! We must draft Trubisky!!

 

23 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Probably due to him being a big UNC guy from Jacksonville, NC.  

lol - dickbags.  

Truth be told, the only poster I remember being on board with me about Watson was Senor Gato.  lol  Everyone was else was telling me how I was a moron, he's a 3rd RD pick, INT's, MPH, ect. etc. etc.  I legit dont remember any of you being in Watson's camp.

It was basically me - Watson, Lupz - Mahomes and the rest of the board calling us idiots. 

[CTM]

1 minute ago, JiF said:

 

 

lol - dickbags.  

Truth be told, the only poster I remember being on board with me about Watson was Senor Gato.  lol  Everyone was else was telling me how I was a moron, he's a 3rd RD pick, INT's, MPH, ect. etc. etc.  I legit dont remember any of you being in Watson's camp.

It was basically me - Watson, Lupz - Mahomes and the rest of the board calling us idiots. 

To be clear, I'm not suggesting I knew either of these would be good. I wasnt really posting much then I dont think, and even if I was I didnt have a strong stance on either player. I wouldve preferred Mahommes due to Qbase but it's not like that had him as a lock elite player either.  I don't think i saw them play in college more than 2-3 times combined as I dont follow college football closely.

I do know I didnt like JA pick from day 1 due to athletic measurables and positional importance.

[DjHoldyHold]

I don't hate Idzik. I feel with more time he could have been successful. I liked how he helped us get out of cap hell, but there is no excuse for how poorly he drafted

[Bruce Harper]

In retrospect, both were abysmal but I am going to give Mac some credit for trading for the Darnold pick (maybe it wasn't his idea but he did pull the trigger).  Also, going 0 for 12 is almost mathematically impossible but Idzik managed to do it that year.