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What If?


Warfish

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2 minutes ago, CTM said:

Playmakers are only as good as their QB

In some cases.

in other cases I think the playmaker, if used right by the play caller, can make the QB look better. 

I.E ::

If Baker throws the ball to OBJ on a slant and he takes it to the house... but Mitch Trubisky throws the ball to Taylor Gabriel on the same slant but Gabriel doesn’t have the same wiggle and athleticism as OBJ and he only gains 6 yards...the stat shows up on Baker’s sheet as 65 yards and a TD compared to a measly 6 yards. Everyone is enamored with stats but do not consider context and other variables as such. You have a play caller who’s taking advantage of a player’s skill set or taking advantage of a corner who has stiff hips and can’t keep up on an out route, the probability of a good play goes up.. that’s good for the numbers of the QB, WR and the success of the team. It just doesn’t seem like we ever have that. This honestly has more to do with the context within the situation for the Jets then it has to do with Sam Darnold. There’s honestly never been an OC decent enough (maybe Chan Gailey for a year) to do the things you regularly see on other teams in the league. There’s never been as poor roster construction in the league than what you see with NYJ the better part of an entire decade and then some.

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35 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Would he of looked as good being forced to push up field and throw 30-40 times a game? Because Jeremy Bates had Darnold throwing 30 times in 8 games and 40 times in 5.(not exact on that but looked this up last offseason and vaguely remember the numbers) asking Lamar to throw 30-40 times in predictable situations in 2nd/3rd and long’s doesn’t sound like a formula for success to me

Would he have had to? Or would his mobility have extended drives and opened up passing lanes. I think clearly yes cause that is what happened in Baltimore

The idea that a pro coach would try and make Jackson a pocket passer is absurd. 

Also, Jackson's QBase was 50% higher than Darnold's anyway, that's metric driven by passing stats. Certainly his threat to run, need to spy helps him here but the conclusion is the same. The best analytical model we have says Jackson was more likely to be successful as a passer than Darnold, in addition to a runner. And guess what, he has been!

To me the knock on Jackson is that he is likely to get hurt which will compromise his running which will compromise his passing. Short of that, the dude is a phenom and would be more successful than Darnold in Baltimore, in Ny, on Jupiter or mars, in rain or shine, cold or warm, on days that end in Y, etc.. He's a better player. better better better. Now stop it

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QBASE is only projecting a quarterback's passing performance, so it doesn't care about Jackson's phenomenal running abilities. But QBASE also clearly thinks that talk of Jackson switching positions is kind of silly. He's just as good a quarterback prospect as any of this year's other young passers other than Mayfield.

Jackson has one stat that lags far behind his others: a completion rate of just 59.1 percent in 2017 and just 57.0 percent over his three-year college career. But his AYPA (8.7) and Louisville's passing S&P+ (11th, right below USC) peg him as a late first-round pick. And unlike other prospects who led top passing offenses last year, Jackson didn't have a lot of great talent around him. Any Louisville receivers and linemen who are drafted (perhaps offensive tackle Gerron Christian this year and wide receiver Jaylen Smith next year) are likely to be Day 3 picks.

 

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35 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yep unless your name is Randy Moss or Calvin Johnson.  The only 2 WRs I've seen in my lifetime that can make sh*tty QBs look competent.  

?

Culpepper,  Brady,  Stafford?  Wheres the shltty QB?

Moss in Oakland with crap at QB in 06, 550 yards.

 

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19 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

What IF... in 2017 they pick Pat Maholmes at the #6 spot instead of Adams... 

2018 #6: Nelson, OL

2018 #37: James Daniels, C

2018: #49:  DJ Chark, WR

2019: #34: Rok-Ya Sin, CB

hmmmmm... 

what if they draft Jimmy G instead of Jace Amaro, Nelson instead of Darnold etc 

what if they didn't waste the Hackenberg and Polite picks? 

drafting in hindsight is a fairly gutless activity

it's like betting ATS in hindsight

it all seems super easy with the benefit of perfect knowledge 

 

bottom line this franchise is where it is because of almost a decade of terrible drafts 

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22 minutes ago, CTM said:

Would he have had to? Or would his mobility have extended drives and opened up passing lanes. I think clearly yes cause that is what happened in Baltimore

The idea that a pro coach would try and make Jackson a pocket passer is absurd. 

Also, Jackson's QBase was 50% higher than Darnold's anyway, that's metric driven by passing stats. Certainly his threat to run, need to spy helps him here but the conclusion is the same. The best analytical model we have says Jackson was more likely to be successful as a passer than Darnold, in addition to a runner. And guess what, he has been!

To me the knock on Jackson is that he is likely to get hurt which will compromise his running which will compromise his passing. Short of that, the dude is a phenom and would be more successful than Darnold in Baltimore, in Ny, on Jupiter or mars, in rain or shine, cold or warm, on days that end in Y, etc.. He's a better player. better better better. Now stop it

 

Anyone who watched LJackson and SDarnold throw passes and thinks LJ is a better passer in and way, never mind 50% better needs to fix their eyes or develop another pass ranking system.

LJ missed more receivers with passes all over the map in one playoff game than normal QBs miss in a season

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23 minutes ago, CTM said:

Would he have had to? Or would his mobility have extended drives and opened up passing lanes. I think clearly yes cause that is what happened in Baltimore

The idea that a pro coach would try and make Jackson a pocket passer is absurd. 

Also, Jackson's QBase was 50% higher than Darnold's anyway, that's metric driven by passing stats. Certainly his threat to run, need to spy helps him here but the conclusion is the same. The best analytical model we have says Jackson was more likely to be successful as a passer than Darnold, in addition to a runner. And guess what, he has been!

To me the knock on Jackson is that he is likely to get hurt which will compromise his running which will compromise his passing. Short of that, the dude is a phenom and would be more successful than Darnold in Baltimore, in Ny, on Jupiter or mars, in rain or shine, cold or warm, on days that end in Y, etc.. He's a better player. better better better. Now stop it

 

QBase? Oh jeez.

and Lamar cannot throw outside the hashes and is a limited passer. He would of certainly been forced to throw in less than ideal positions to less than ideal talent with less than ideal play calling. You’re joking if you aren’t taking the context of both QB’s situation into heavy consideration.

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4 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

QBase? Oh jeez.

and Lamar cannot throw outside the hashes and is a limited passer. He would of certainly been forced to throw in less than ideal positions to less than ideal talent with less than ideal play calling. You’re joking if you aren’t taking the context of both QB’s situation into heavy consideration.

I did not say Lamar would be league MVP here, I said he would be better than Darnold assuming stayed healthy.

"QBase? Oh jeez." -- Eye test of biased fan =  Oh Jeez^99999999

 

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Just now, CTM said:

I did not say Lamar would be league MVP here, I said he would be better than Darnold assuming stayed healthy.

"QBase? Oh jeez." -- Eye test of biased fan =  Oh Jeez^99999999

 

And I respectfully disagree.. 

And i’ve never been a fan of how QBase is determined. I just don’t like how the metric is calculated compared to the various others options to choose from. Meh at least you didn’t pull out PFF.

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6 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Anyone who watched LJackson and SDarnold throw passes and thinks LJ is a better passer in and way, never mind 50% better needs to fix their eyes or develop another pass ranking system.

LJ missed more receivers with passes all over the map in one playoff game than normal QBs miss in a season

ugh, these things are intermingled. LJ completed 66% of passes. He ran for 1200 yards, this forced defenses to respect his running which opens up passing opportunities.

I'm not saying in a bubble LJ is more accurate,  i'm saying in the context of his entire game he's more successful passing. And the statistics back it up

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Just now, Patriot Killa said:

And I respectfully disagree.. 

And i’ve never been a fan of how QBase is determined. I just don’t like how the metric is calculated compared to the various others options to choose from. Meh at least you didn’t pull out PFF.

IT's based on a regression, find traits common to successful qb's and unsucessful ones and use that to grade prospects, then run against historic players to improve results.. Not sure what's not to like. It consistently performs better than meat head GM's

 

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6 minutes ago, CTM said:

IT's based on a regression, find traits common to successful qb's and unsucessful ones and use that to grade prospects, then run against historic players to improve results.. Not sure what's not to like. It consistently performs better than meat head GM's

 

Because QBase said Josh Allen would suck and he currently holds the #7 spot for most total TD’s accumulated by a QB in 2019.

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4 minutes ago, CTM said:

ugh, these things are intermingled. LJ completed 66% of passes. He ran for 1200 yards, this forced defenses to respect his running which opens up passing opportunities.

I'm not saying in a bubble LJ is more accurate,  i'm saying in the context of his entire game he's more successful passing. And the statistics back it up

I hear you.  I just am pointing out how those numbers dont tell the story.  In anyones mind who watched LJ throw passes, hes innacurate.  He throws ducks, often.  

Hes a weapon in every way though.  He hits passes others dont from the threat of his taking off and running.  My worry for him is if he doesnt have the run game around him or if he losses a step.  

Back to the point, yes in the context of the way he and the Ravens play the game, he puts up inflated passing % numbers.  I thought you were trying to prove his ability to pass the ball.  If not, my bad

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2 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Because QBase said Josh Allen would suck and he currently holds the #7 spot for most total TD’s accumulated by a QB in 2019.

Josh Allen does suck

The plural of anecdote isn't data. Nobody is saying or expecting it to be perfect. it's biggest miss is probably DeShaun Watson to be honest. It has a decent hit rate and will likely be upgraded somtime in the future.

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1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yep unless your name is Randy Moss or Calvin Johnson.  The only 2 WRs I've seen in my lifetime that can make sh*tty QBs look competent.  

My guess is Gronk would have had that ability too had he played anywhere else during his career.

Stafford is not a sh*tty QB and Moss played with Culpepper and Brady. 

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1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yep unless your name is Randy Moss or Calvin Johnson.  The only 2 WRs I've seen in my lifetime that can make sh*tty QBs look competent.  

My guess is Gronk would have had that ability too had he played anywhere else during his career.

Stafford is not a sh*tty QB and Moss played with Culpepper and Brady. 

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4 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Back to the point, yes in the context of the way he and the Ravens play the game, he puts up inflated passing % numbers.  I thought you were trying to prove his ability to pass the ball.  If not, my bad

Nope, i'm just saying his threat to run makes it uniquely easier for him to pass.

This is why I'm not long on LJ because I agree, if he's no longer a threat to run due to an injury, he's no longer an effective QB.

To be clear, I'll take Darnold 5 years from now, and LJ today.

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https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/qbase-2018

QBASE PROJECTIONS

Sam Darnold, USC (Scouts Inc.: No. 3)

Mean Projection in Years 3-5: 412 DYAR
Bust (< 500 DYAR) 51.9%
Adequate Starter (500-1499 DYAR) 29.0%
Upper Tier (1500-2500 DYAR) 15.1%
Elite (>2500 DYAR) 4.1%

Based on Football Outsiders' Passing S&P+ stats, the USC Trojans had college football's No. 3 passing offense when Darnold was a redshirt freshman in 2016. That dropped to tenth in his sophomore year, but tenth out of 130 FBS teams is still pretty good. So why is Darnold's QBASE lower than that of other prospects expected to be chosen after him in this year's draft?

The problem is that Darnold has only two years of experience as a starting quarterback in college football, and the track record of top-100 quarterbacks with only two college years started is downright lousy. The best among them are Cam Newton, Joe Flacco, Michael Vick, and Alex Smith. Aaron Rodgers could count as either a two-year or three-year starter, since like Newton, he also had a year starting in junior college. But for the most part, highly-drafted quarterbacks with only two years of college starting experience have underperformed their draft position. These are some of the biggest busts in quarterback history: Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, Blake Bortles, Mark Sanchez, and so forth.

Of course, there was a two-year college starter selected in the later rounds of the draft who turned out to be pretty successful in the NFL: Tom Brady. But Brady is the historical outlier of all outliers, not a historical precedent you base a top-five draft pick on.

To overcome this penalty in QBASE, a prospect needs to have dominating statistics. Cam Newton did. Alex Smith did. Sam Darnold did not. His stats don't particularly stand out when compared to Josh Rosen, Lamar Jackson, or Mason Rudolph.

All college quarterbacks are a risk in the NFL. Does Darnold's lack of college experience somehow negate what scouts see on film? No, but we're trying to determine here which quarterbacks are high risk and which quarterbacks are really high risk.

In Darnold's defense, the track record of two-year starters may look a lot better with a couple more years of data. Carson Wentz was a two-year starter, as were Deshaun Watson and Jameis Winston. Also, Darnold faced the most difficult 2017 schedule of any of this year's top quarterback prospects, and his raw statistics are a little more impressive in that light. But that element is already factored into Darnold's QBASE rating.

Josh Allen, Wyoming (7)

Mean Projection in Years 3-5: -83 DYAR
Bust (< 500 DYAR) 62.7%
Adequate Starter (500-1499 DYAR) 20.7%
Upper Tier (1500-2500 DYAR) 11.5%
Elite (>2500 DYAR) 5.2%

Like Darnold, Josh Allen was only a two-year starter in college. But Allen's statistics are horrifying compared to Darnold's.

Allen has an obscenely powerful arm, but it's a howitzer without a targeting system. He completed just 56.3 percent of his passes last year. Here is the list of quarterbacks chosen in the top 100 picks since 2005 despite having a completion rate below 58 percent in their final college season: Andrew Walter (2005), Jake Locker (2011), Christian Hackenberg (2016), Connor Cook (2016), and C. J. Beathard (2017). That's it.

Last year, Wyoming finished 119th in passing S&P+ out of 130 teams in FBS. That will be the lowest rank ever for a quarterback chosen in the top 100 picks of the NFL draft. Yes, I know, Allen wasn't playing with a bunch of NFL-bound talent around him. He also wasn't facing a lot of NFL-bound talent on defense. The average opponent faced by Wyoming ranked just 83.5 in pass defense S&P+. Allen's performance against top opponents was brutal. He threw two picks with no touchdowns against Iowa, with just 4.35 yards per attempt. He completed just 9-of-24 passes with 64 yards and a pick against Oregon. He completed 44 percent of passes with two picks and only 131 yards against Boise State.

Since 1997, there have been 27 different quarterbacks chosen in the top 100 with QBASE ratings below zero. The best of these quarterbacks was either Josh McCown or Brian Griese. It's a terrible group of quarterback busts. Negative-QBASE passers chosen in the first round include Mark Sanchez, Josh Freeman, Kyle Boller, Rex Grossman, J.P. Losman, and Patrick Ramsey.

Allen supporters talk about how his 2016 season was much better than his 2017 season, and it was. In 2016, Wyoming finished 52nd in passing S&P+. Allen still couldn't complete more than 56.0 percent of his passes. If we pretend Allen's 2017 season never happened, then Allen has a QBASE of 161, still the worst of this year's top prospects.

Josh Rosen, UCLA (8)

Mean Projection in Years 3-5: 623 DYAR
Bust (< 500 DYAR) 46.9%
Adequate Starter (500-1499 DYAR) 24.8%
Upper Tier (1500-2500 DYAR) 18.0%
Elite (>2500 DYAR) 10.4%

Josh Rosen is a very typical first-round quarterback prospect. That's not meant to be a negative statement. The average QBASE for first-round picks since 1997 is 620; Rosen is at 623. The average first-round quarterback has 2.7 years of starting experience; Rosen has three. Rosen's APYA (adjusted passing yards per attempt) of 8.5 and completion rate of 62.6 percent are a little below average for a first-round quarterback prospect, but not by much. (The averages are 9.0 and 64.0, respectively.)

Rosen played a slightly harder than average schedule, but also gets docked by QBASE because he had a lot of high-rated talent around him at UCLA. Offensive tackle Kolton Miller and tight end Caleb Wilson are likely to be first-round picks (Miller this year, Wilson in 2019). Center Scott Quessenberry and wide receiver Jordan Lasley are also likely to be drafted this year.

Baker Mayfield, Oklahoma (13)

Mean Projection in Years 3-5: 1,480 DYAR
Bust (< 500 DYAR) 29.3%
Adequate Starter (500-1499 DYAR) 21.8%
Upper Tier (1500-2500 DYAR) 20.7%
Elite (>2500 DYAR) 28.2%

Baker Mayfield's stats at Oklahoma were completely ridiculous, so it's no surprise that a stat-based projection system such as QBASE loves him with the heat of a thousand suns.

One of the stats included in QBASE is adjusted passing yards per attempt. This metric looks at yards per attempt, then adds 20 yards for each touchdown and subtracts 45 yards for each interception. Baker Mayfield is the only quarterback in FBS history to top 12.0 APYA in a season, and he's done it twice: 12.3 APYA in 2016, and then a record 12.9 APYA in 2017. Mayfield also completed more than 70 percent of his passes as a senior, and Oklahoma's offense was No. 1 in Football Outsiders' Passing S&P+ rating.

On top of this, the No. 1 predictor of NFL success for top quarterback draft picks is still how many years of starting experience they had in college. Mayfield is the only one of this year's top prospects with four years of starting experience. (Luke Falk, likely to be drafted later, started for three-and-a-half seasons.)

Like Rosen, QBASE docks Mayfield a bit because he played with high-quality teammates. Both offensive tackle Orlando Brown and tight end Mark Andrews are likely to be drafted in the first three rounds this year, and wide receiver Marquise Brown and guard Ben Powers are likely to go in the first three rounds of the 2019 draft. However, Mayfield does not get docked for playing an easy Big 12 schedule. Because of the Big 12 championship game, the Sooners had to play twice against TCU, which at No. 15 in S&P+ was the Big 12's best pass defense. Mayfield also had to face Ohio State (No. 12) and Georgia (No. 6), so the average pass defense he faced was ranked 52.8, the same as Rosen and better than any of this year's prospects other than Darnold.

Put all these elements together, and Mayfield has the fourth-highest QBASE projection of any prospect since 1997. The only players projected higher were Philip Rivers, Carson Palmer, and Donovan McNabb. 

Lamar Jackson, Louisville (38)

Mean Projection in Years 3-5: 656 DYAR
Bust (< 500 DYAR) 46.2%
Adequate Starter (500-1499 DYAR) 26.9%
Upper Tier (1500-2500 DYAR) 18.5%
Elite (>2500 DYAR) 8.5%

QBASE is only projecting a quarterback's passing performance, so it doesn't care about Jackson's phenomenal running abilities. But QBASE also clearly thinks that talk of Jackson switching positions is kind of silly. He's just as good a quarterback prospect as any of this year's other young passers other than Mayfield.

Jackson has one stat that lags far behind his others: a completion rate of just 59.1 percent in 2017 and just 57.0 percent over his three-year college career. But his AYPA (8.7) and Louisville's passing S&P+ (11th, right below USC) peg him as a late first-round pick. And unlike other prospects who led top passing offenses last year, Jackson didn't have a lot of great talent around him. Any Louisville receivers and linemen who are drafted (perhaps offensive tackle Gerron Christian this year and wide receiver Jaylen Smith next year) are likely to be Day 3 picks.

 

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1 minute ago, CTM said:

Nope, i'm just saying his threat to run makes it uniquely easier for him to pass.

This is why I'm not long on LJ because I agree, if he's no longer a threat to run due to an injury, he's no longer an effective QB.

To be clear, I'll take Darnold 5 years from now, and LJ today.

OK, get it now.  

And agree, especially with the longer term prognosis.

 

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6 minutes ago, CTM said:

Josh Allen does suck

The plural of anecdote isn't data. Nobody is saying or expecting it to be perfect. it's biggest miss is probably DeShaun Watson to be honest. It has a decent hit rate and will likely be upgraded somtime in the future.

I would of agreed if this was his rookie season but he’s found a nice balance and is better than I thought he ever would be before the draft. 

I still think he is a limited passer as well though.

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6 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

I would of agreed if this was his rookie season but he’s found a nice balance and is better than I thought he ever would be before the draft. 

I still think he is a limited passer as well though.

He was better this season, lets see how next season goes. Again, i'm not claiming this is infallible but Josh Allen had a negatve DYAR this year (-15), which is actualy spot on to what they projected for him (-83 for 3 seasons, or -28 a year)

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8 minutes ago, CTM said:

@Patriot Killa

Too early for this but the actual Dyar years 1-2, the top 2 are the top 2 and Rosen is the biggest outlier but he had a 50% chance of busting anyway..

 

Darnold -400

Allen -549

Rosen  -1554

Mayfield  +687

Lamar  +1296

 

All of them except Baker had around a 50% chance of busting but surprisingly about on par...except Allen is no where near as bad as they made him out to seem. I think 2017’s QBase article is a bit more to the point i’m trying to make. It’s all about context and situations. You can gauge what a player might be with his existing stats and that’s very fair but things can change considerably during their NFL careers and completely throw off the trajectory that QBase gives a QB and it’s for this reason that I’m not a big fan of it. I do think FO is legit though and QBase is at least better than some poster just throwing a few PFF graphic pics at me lol.

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4 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

In some cases.

in other cases I think the playmaker, if used right by the play caller, can make the QB look better. 

I.E ::

If Baker throws the ball to OBJ on a slant and he takes it to the house... but Mitch Trubisky throws the ball to Taylor Gabriel on the same slant but Gabriel doesn’t have the same wiggle and athleticism as OBJ and he only gains 6 yards...the stat shows up on Baker’s sheet as 65 yards and a TD compared to a measly 6 yards. Everyone is enamored with stats but do not consider context and other variables as such. You have a play caller who’s taking advantage of a player’s skill set or taking advantage of a corner who has stiff hips and can’t keep up on an out route, the probability of a good play goes up.. that’s good for the numbers of the QB, WR and the success of the team. It just doesn’t seem like we ever have that. This honestly has more to do with the context within the situation for the Jets then it has to do with Sam Darnold. There’s honestly never been an OC decent enough (maybe Chan Gailey for a year) to do the things you regularly see on other teams in the league. There’s never been as poor roster construction in the league than what you see with NYJ the better part of an entire decade and then some.

It seems strange to accuse Taylor Gabriel of not having enough wiggle.  Have you ever seen him play?  

.

 

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5 hours ago, CTM said:

Oh well tfb, the fact that you like to flip flop from homer troll or sojf troll doesnt change the observation which I was speaking about in aggregate anyway. The same thing Darnold fans say today, pennington fans were saying 15 years ago.

It's not flip-flopping.  Each season is different.  Each regime is different.

Maccagnan + Bowles was our Transition team, the two bums no one else wanted that took Jets jobs out of desperation to ride out an ugly rebuild.  You need two meek mice to take the barbs and arrows of the ugly, dark times.  Any fool could see that they weren't ever going to get the job done.  They were here to get our cap right, cut all the malcontents, and drop like a stone to get a QB in the draft.

Douglas + Gase is our Contention team, the two elite talents that have taken us out of the rebuild on the precipice of the playoffs.  You need two animals to change the culture and forcibly move the roster to elite levels.  Anyone can see that we have turned the corner with Gase and Douglas surely looks the part.

You treat all of these rosters and managers in the same ol' way, that's the boring SOJF playbook.  We'll win the Super Bowl and you'll be miserable because you think its some contest of who is right and who is wrong on forums.  It's going to suck for you.  That pleases me.

SAR I

 

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5 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Some think Sam would look better than Mahomes/Jackson and/or would be an elite QB in KC/BAL.  Which is absurd.  

Sam is already a better quarterback than Jackson.  Jackson is RGIII all over again.  A year, maybe two, and the league figures him out, he gets hurt from all the scrambling, and his liability as a passer shines through.

Mahomes is special.  He doesn't scramble around like Jackson.  He's a legit passer.  That said, he's had some weak games against elite competition, especially on nationally televised games, and when KC starts to lose their league-best receiving corps it remains to be seen if he can perform consistently in his bombs-away manner.

The Jets finally have their franchise quarterback.  Two years of NFL experience.  Entering Year 2 of a coaching staff and playbook with no turnover.  Behind a rebuilt OL alongside young WR's to bond with.  It's going to be awesome.  Except for SOJF's like you.  You are going to be miserable because you were so wrong and that matters to you.

SAR I

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4 hours ago, The Crusher said:

I’m not sure, I’m only certain he would be much worse than he is  in Baltimore. Can’t help but think he would have been on IR by mid season. Plus in the playoffs, he seemed to get frustrated when the team around him didn’t pull their weight. Not sure he could carry a dog like our offense any better that Sam. 

Robert Griffin III
Michael Vick
Cam Newton
Kordell Stewart
Josh Allen
Lamar Jackson

Not a champion among them.  Most wore out their legs very quickly, could only throw marginally, and were cut to the raucous applause of frustrated fans a few years after all the hype of "the new gen quarterback".

SAR I

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2 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Robert Griffin III
Michael Vick
Cam Newton
Kordell Stewart
Josh Allen
Lamar Jackson

Not a champion among them.  Most wore out their legs very quickly, could only throw marginally, and were cut to the raucous applause of frustrated fans a few years after all the hype of "the new gen quarterback".

SAR I

I know you like to talk about the future like you drive a time traveling BMW but I prefer to leave the future till it happens. 

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1 minute ago, The Crusher said:

I know you like to talk about the future like you drive a time traveling BMW but I prefer to leave the future till it happens. 

The jury may be out on Darnold, but it's not on Jackson and Allen, two guys in over their pay grade who had surprisingly good seasons on the strength of their scrambling abilities.  Funny thing happens to that type of player when they run up against an opponent with a strong D and an offense that can put up a lot of points-  they lose.  Texans and Titans put an end to the second-coming's of RGIII right quick.  None of the scrambling "two tool" players achieved anything.  Newton did okay transitioning to more of a pocket guy but the injuries (surprise) make him a shell of his former self (surprise).

Quarterback running backs get hurt.  A faster way of saying the same thing.

SAR I

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33 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Robert Griffin III
Michael Vick
Cam Newton
Kordell Stewart
Josh Allen
Lamar Jackson

Not a champion among them.  Most wore out their legs very quickly, could only throw marginally, and were cut to the raucous applause of frustrated fans a few years after all the hype of "the new gen quarterback".

SAR I

What are six quarterbacks that have had better seasons than Sam Darnold, Alex? 

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