How much more does Darnold step up his game

[slats]

4 minutes ago, CTM said:

And how did that warheouse full of weaponzzz posts play out in regards to Geno and Sanchez?

And they are valid today. Sam is a bad QB today who also happens to be in a bad situation thanks to Mac. Both things are true. Anybody that thinks Sam doesn't deserve a good chunk of the responsibility is kidding themselves.

Personally, I think Darnold remains a much better prospect than either Geno or Sanchez, on a much worse team. I really don't care if that sounds like I'm making excuses. Sure, Sam has work to do, too, but JD and Gase have a lot more to do, IMHO. 

[CTM]

4 minutes ago, slats said:

Personally, I think Darnold remains a much better prospect than either Geno or Sanchez, on a much worse team. I really don't care if that sounds like I'm making excuses. Sure, Sam has work to do, too, but JD and Gase have a lot more to do, IMHO. 

I don't think that is going too far out on a limb. Draft position alone dictates he's a better prospect and Sanchez was way over drafted at 1.5 anyway

[JustInFudge]

15 minutes ago, CTM said:

I've asked this before but link for historically bad oline? I'm not convinced it was worst line this year, let alone historically bad.

And why would I need to provide anything to support the main stream narrative that most jet fans accept? Are you a grade schooler that needs any criticism or context clarified and softened by repeating the obvious? ffs

What's the mainstream narrative?  

I dont need you to soften anything.  Criticism is fine and Darnold is far from a finished product.  The jury is still out.  I'm just pointing out once again that the stats you live by dont factor in very important pieces to the puzzle.  

I already quoted it in thread - One of only 3 Olines in the history of the NFL to allow 50+ sacks and run block for less than 3.5 yards per carry.

 

 

[SAR I]

Quarterback is the one position we don't have to worry about.

After all these years, how nice is it to say that?

SAR I

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, JiF said:

What's the mainstream narrative?  

I dont need you to soften anything.  Criticism is fine and Darnold is far from a finished product.  The jury is still out.  I'm just pointing out once again that the stats you live by dont factor in very important pieces to the puzzle.  

I already quoted it in thread - One of only 3 Olines in the history of the NFL to allow 50+ sacks and run block for less than 3.5 yards per carry.

 

The run-blocking was indeed horrible.  But sacks are as much a QB stat as an O-Line stat.  

FO did rank the Jets OL # 31 in run blocking (Miami was # 32) and # 30 in Sack rate (ahead of Washington and Tennessee) when adjusting a bit for the QB.  So yes, the OL was indeed pathetic in both categories.    

 

More on how FO does their Adjusted Sack Rate:

Quote

Adjusted Sack Rate, which gives sacks (plus intentional grounding penalties) per pass attempt adjusted for down, distance, and opponent. 

 

[JustInFudge]

18 minutes ago, CTM said:

And how did that warheouse full of weaponzzz posts play out in regards to Geno and Sanchez?

And they are valid today. Sam is a bad QB today who also happens to be in a bad situation thanks to Mac. Both things are true. Anybody that thinks Sam doesn't deserve a good chunk of the responsibility is kidding themselves.

Right.  Yet, Sam doesnt get any credit for overcoming that adversity on this terrible team because the teams he faced during this 8 game stretch, were bad.  lol

Amazing how you're completely unable to get your head out of your own ass.

 

[CTM]

8 minutes ago, JiF said:

What's the mainstream narrative?  

I dont need you to soften anything.  Criticism is fine and Darnold is far from a finished product.  The jury is still out.  I'm just pointing out once again that the stats you live by dont factor in very important pieces to the puzzle.  

I already quoted it in thread - One of only 3 Olines in the history of the NFL to allow 50+ sacks and run block for less than 3.5 yards per carry.

 

 

The mainsteam narrative here is that Darnold has only played poorly because the talent around him is dire and Gase sucks. You know, what you and all the other Dahnald fanboys are constantly clucking about.

Sacks are largely a QB stat* Sperm quoted the other day that Sam had one of the highest time to throw in the league last year. He processes slower than a vet. And as talented and raw but functionally bad as I think Darnold is, the other guy doesn't even belong on a practice squad.

That being said, I think the line was really really bad with Kalil and Edoga, and below average with Beachum in there.

* https://www.thebiglead.com/2018/10/19/sacks-are-a-quarterback-stat/

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Quarterback is the one position we don't have to worry about.

After all these years, how nice is it to say that?

It's not a top 3 worry.  But it's not at all a done deal that we have our franchise QB.  Sam can't just be better than Geno and Sanchez.  He needs to prove he's worthy of a 2nd contract. 

Some very good QB's out there are getting let go because of the strain on the cap.  Matthew Stafford, for instance, has been a top 15 QB for years.  To justify the money you'll get on your 2nd contract, you can't just be average.  And so far, all we've seen from Darnold even at his best is that he's about average, maybe slightly above average.

[CTM]

Just now, JiF said:

Right.  Yet, Sam doesnt get any credit for overcoming that adversity on this terrible team because the teams he faced during this 7 game stretch, were bad.  lol

Amazing how you're completely unable to get your head out of your own ass.

 

You either don't listen or can't comprehend. I want to spend the off season drafting and FA WR/Oline and speed at RB. Same as last offseason. 

If I didn't give Darnold credit and just looked at stats I'd be advocating we go out and get one of the many vet QB's available. I'm not.

 

[Warfish]

8 hours ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

with just average or better but real NFL talent on the OL?

 

I hope he steps up his game to the average production of a 16 game 2019 NFL starting QB.

[CTM]

9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

The run-blocking was indeed horrible.  But sacks are as much a QB stat as an O-Line stat.  

FO did rank the Jets OL # 31 in run blocking (Miami was # 32) and # 30 in Sack rate (ahead of Washington and Tennessee) when adjusting a bit for the QB.  So yes, the OL was indeed pathetic in both categories.    

 

More on how FO does their Adjusted Sack Rate:

 

It's the 1600's Jif is the catholic church and advanced stats are Galileo. Suggesting sacks are a QB stat is the JN equivalent of suggesting the earth revolves around the sun.

[Warfish]

11 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Quarterback is the one position we don't have to worry about.

After all these years, how nice is it to say that?

SAR I

Pretty sure you last said that during the Mark Sanchez regime.

You were wrong then, badly.  Even though you won't admit it.  

Lets all hope you're right today.

By the way, you are clearly a USC alum, right?  You've had boners for almost every USC QB whose come out in the many years I've known you.  So you're a Trojan, right?

[Jetsfan80]

7 minutes ago, CTM said:

It's the 1600's Jif is the catholic church and advanced stats are Galileo. Suggesting sacks are a QB stat is the JN equivalent of suggesting the earth revolves around the sun.

He's so averse to numbers.  Yet when it comes time to prove a point, what does he try to use?  Numbers.  

[SAR I]

11 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And so far, all we've seen from Darnold even at his best is that he's about average, maybe slightly above average.

Watch this video, its only 6 minutes of your life and well worth it.  And remember:

1. Recovering from mononucleosis, weakness, and weight loss.

2. Stunted growth in brand new playbook because of missing a month.

3. Missing Enunwa and Herndon, his top two receiving targets.

4. Worst OL in the NFL.

5. Worst rushing attack in the NFL.

Watch this video, remember these 5 conditions, and there you go, he ain't "slightly above average".  He's special.

SAR I

[JustInFudge]

22 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

The run-blocking was indeed horrible.  But sacks are as much a QB stat as an O-Line stat.  

FO did rank the Jets OL # 31 in run blocking (Miami was # 32) and # 30 in Sack rate (ahead of Washington and Tennessee) when adjusting a bit for the QB.  So yes, the OL was indeed pathetic in both categories.    

 

More on how FO does their Adjusted Sack Rate:

 

Meh, I disagree that the sacks are just as much on the QB.  It's situational.  I dont watch the Jets and see Sam holding the ball too long, thus taking unnecessary sacks.  Sure they happen time to time to the best of them but I saw a guy who legit has no time to throw and has defenders in his face in a split second.

Watson and Wilson were the most sacked QB's in the league and those dudes are probably 2 of the 5 best in the NFL.  Granted, they tend to extend plays and hold the baller longer than most QB's but I dont see that watching Sam.  The sacks he took this year seemed instant. 

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, SAR I said:

Watch this video, its only 6 minutes of your life and well worth it.  And remember:

1. Recovering from mononucleosis, weakness, and weight loss.

2. Stunted growth in brand new playbook because of missing a month.

3. Missing Enunwa and Herndon, his top two receiving targets.

4. Worst OL in the NFL.

5. Worst rushing attack in the NFL.

Watch this video, remember these 5 conditions, and there you go, he ain't "slightly above average".  He's special.

SAR I

 

Anyone can put together a highlight video and look good.  Again, even at his best, he's not "special".  He's above average.  And you can win with above average.  

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, JiF said:

Meh, I disagree that the sacks are just as much on the QB.  It's situational. 

Over a large sample size the "situational" stuff gets washed out.  Over time, the trend shows up demonstrating good QB's avoid sacks.  Bad QB's don't.  It's that simple. 

Sanchez took a lot of sacks not because the OL sucked, but because he'd stare down his WRs and not get the ball out quick enough.  He couldn't throw guys open.  He was a slow processor.  

[JohnnyLV]

2 hours ago, CTM said:

Cool stats. It leaves out a big part of the picture however. In weeks 10-17 we faced the

#24, #28,#30,#31#32 ranked pass defense by dvoa

We also played the Bill's who rested starters.

We had 2 tough defenses in that span (Pitss and Baltimore)

Thats 5 of 8 games against the worst pass defenses the nfl has to offer, and 1 against a team not even trying to win. 6/8, 75% creampuffs

This is why Sam's DVOA and DYAR in year 2 where lower than year 1. He played a lot of really really bad defenses .

DVOA and DYAR are the worst advanced stats ever. Circular statistics are not probative.

[JustInFudge]

21 minutes ago, CTM said:

The mainsteam narrative here is that Darnold has only played poorly because the talent around him is dire and Gase sucks. You know, what you and all the other Dahnald fanboys are constantly clucking about.

Sacks are largely a QB stat* Sperm quoted the other day that Sam had one of the highest time to throw in the league last year. He processes slower than a vet. And as talented and raw but functionally bad as I think Darnold is, the other guy doesn't even belong on a practice squad.

That being said, I think the line was really really bad with Kalil and Edoga, and below average with Beachum in there.

https://www.thebiglead.com/2018/10/19/sacks-are-a-quarterback-stat/

I dont blame it on all Gase and the talent around him, Sam needs to get better.  lol

Where is this "highest time to throw" stat.  That's laughable. 

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, JiF said:

I dont blame it on all Gase and the talent around him, Sam needs to get better.  lol

Where is this "highest time to throw" stat.  That's laughable. 

Sort by TT:

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-time-to-throw

 

Darnold:  2.92.  3rd highest in the NFL among qualifying passers.

[JustInFudge]

22 minutes ago, CTM said:

You either don't listen or can't comprehend. I want to spend the off season drafting and FA WR/Oline and speed at RB. Same as last offseason. 

If I didn't give Darnold credit and just looked at stats I'd be advocating we go out and get one of the many vet QB's available. I'm not.

 

Yet, you didnt give Sam credit.  You sh*t on it.

Saying you want to get better on offense doesnt mean jack sh*t about Sam.  Even if he's not the guy, those things are still important.  And when you're the worst in the NFL in that dept., it doesnt take a genius to know you need to improve in those areas. 

[JustInFudge]

17 minutes ago, CTM said:

It's the 1600's Jif is the catholic church and advanced stats are Galileo. Suggesting sacks are a QB stat is the JN equivalent of suggesting the earth revolves around the sun.

 

10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

He's so averse to numbers.  Yet when it comes time to prove a point, what does he try to use?  Numbers.  

You guys take #'s at face value, I do a deeper dive because I'm capable of seeing the big picture (and clearly more intelligent than the both you combined). These #'s you live by leave out very important factors and ignore very simple concepts and actually provide nothing meaningful to anyone.  It's really simple to comprehend but I guess it easier to just accept whats spoon fed to you.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, JiF said:

 

You guys take #'s at face value, I do a deeper dive because I'm capable of seeing the big picture (and clearly more intelligent than the both you combined). These #'s you live by leave out very important factors and ignore very simple concepts and actually provide nothing meaningful to anyone.  It's really simple to comprehend but I guess it easier to just accept whats spoon fed to you.

 

Your biases affect your ability to comprehend what the numbers mean.  For instance, you're probably going to dismiss the stat I just posted, because you're very predictable in that way:

 

6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Sort by TT:

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-time-to-throw

 

Darnold:  2.92.  3rd highest in the NFL among qualifying passers.

 

[JustInFudge]

6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Over a large sample size the "situational" stuff gets washed out.  Over time, the trend shows up demonstrating good QB's avoid sacks.  Bad QB's don't.  It's that simple. 

Sanchez took a lot of sacks not because the OL sucked, but because he'd stare down his WRs and not get the ball out quick enough.  He couldn't throw guys open.  He was a slow processor.  

So Deshaun Watson and Russell Wilson are bad QB's?   They were sacked the most in the NFL.

Other "bad" QB's who cracked the top 10 in sacks;  Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers. Jimmy G.  Those guys are good examples of bad QB's since 2 are former MVP's who have played in the Super Bowl and the other just played in one.

 

 

 

[Bruce Harper]

26 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

The run-blocking was indeed horrible.  But sacks are as much a QB stat as an O-Line stat.  

FO did rank the Jets OL # 31 in run blocking (Miami was # 32) and # 30 in Sack rate (ahead of Washington and Tennessee) when adjusting a bit for the QB.  So yes, the OL was indeed pathetic in both categories.    

 

More on how FO does their Adjusted Sack Rate:

 

I'm not blaming Darnold for getting sacked 33 times in 13 games behind that line. Falk was sacked 16 times in 2.5 games, including 9 against the Eagles.  This was an historically bad line.  There's nowhere to go but up, in terms of protection.

[JustInFudge]

14 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Sort by TT:

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-time-to-throw

 

Darnold:  2.92.  3rd highest in the NFL among qualifying passers.

This is laughable.  Anyone that thinks Sam enjoyed the 3rd highest amount of time to throw, never watched the NY Jets.  He had free rushers coming at him on every other play.  The OP pointed out that he was pressured on 42% of his drop backs. 

My gawd, you guys just accept anything served to you. 

[SAR I]

32 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Pretty sure you last said that during the Mark Sanchez regime.

There is not a person in the forums who thought we hadn't found our franchise quarterback the summer of 2011.  After 4 road playoff wins, two AFC Championship Games, and all those 4th quarter comebacks, I don't remember a single person on JI saying we had a QB problem.  The only thing we were talking about at the time was adding Asomugha as a twin with Revis.  The Jets mismanaged the kid.  Biggest tragedy in team history, not investing in him and trying to make him better.  Instead we went out of our way to make him worse.

32 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Lets all hope you're right today.

By the way, you are clearly a USC alum, right?  You've had boners for almost every USC QB whose come out in the many years I've known you.  So you're a Trojan, right?

I have no connection to USC other than the last 2 first round QB's my Jets have invested in came from that school.  I like what I see in Darnold so far.  He had all the indications of being an elite NFL quarterback two years ago when he was drafted and I've seen nothing from that 20 year old kid to make me think he's taken any steps backwards since then.  The adversity he's faced and the comfort he now has in the current system bodes well for his future. 6-2 with that garbage offense, not bad.

SAR I

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, JiF said:

This is laughable.  Anyone that thinks Sam enjoyed the 3rd highest amount of time to throw, never watched the NY Jets.  He had free rushers coming at him on every other play.  The OP pointed out that he was pressured on 42% of his drop backs. 

My gawd, you guys just accept anything served to you. 

 

Yes.  The guy with a stopwatch watching every play didn't watch the games.  Clearly that guy has an agenda and is lying.  

Laughable how you turn aside any numbers that don't jive with whatever narrative you're trying to argue.  And predictable, too.  

[JustInFudge]

10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Your biases affect your ability to comprehend what the numbers mean.  For instance, you're probably going to dismiss the stat I just posted, because you're very predictable in that way:

 

 

What bias?  

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, JiF said:

What bias?  

"These numbers are fake because they don't fit what I think I saw."

[JustInFudge]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Yes.  The guy with a stopwatch watching every play didn't watch the games.  Clearly that guy has an agenda and is lying.  

Laughable how you turn aside any numbers that don't jive with whatever narrative you're trying to argue.  And predictable, too.  

Is he in the stands at combine clocking MPH too? 

holy sh*t man

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, JiF said:

Is he in the stands at combine clocking MPH too? 

holy sh*t man

Did he make up the stats out of thin air?

Holy sh*t man.  

[JustInFudge]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

"These numbers are fake because they don't fit what I think I saw."

You believe wholeheartedly, that Sam Darnold had the 3rd longest time to throw in the NFL?  You 100% believe that as fact? 

Serious question. 

[JustInFudge]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Did he make up the stats out of thin air?

Holy sh*t man.  

Yes, because fools like you eat it up! 

[SAR I]

22 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Anyone can put together a highlight video and look good.  Again, even at his best, he's not "special".  He's above average.  And you can win with above average.  

Many of those throws were special.  Back foot, side arm, in the grasp, practically pulled to the ground, Sam has a pocket presence we haven't seen here in New Jersey for a long time.  He can sense pressure and glide away from it, keep his eyes downfield, and throw a dart.  That's special.  Again, context please:  Terrible OL, no rushing attack, his top receivers out for the year, HC under tremendous scrutiny, and he leads us to a 6-2 finish, goes 7-5 as a starter.  We were an 11-5 team last year if we had a K and average injuries.

Yes, he makes mistakes sometimes.  All quarterbacks do, and he's only 22, he should be preparing for this draft right now and instead he's got 2 years of NFL experience and is poised to dominate the AFC East for a decade.  Don't worry.  Be happy.

SAR I