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Darnold Schwarzenegger

Wilder V Fury II

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1 hour ago, Paradis said:

Sad but true.... One could point to the injuries as a reason, but I seemed liked from the get go that Wilder's defense didn't show up... he let Fury land way to many early on... hence the blown ear and jaw. 

Hard matchup to call based on the first fight, I wouldn’t kill yourself over it. Completely different strategy from Fury’s corner and you have to attribute the switch to Kronk as that was 100% a Kronk style strategy; staying being a consistent jab to set up straight power shots. Fury was either hanging on him or staying just out of range, which meant Wilder had to take some early risks to try to draw him in, which only played into Fury’s gameplan even more. Much different than their first fight where Fury was just slipping and tapping him. The bigger man should definitely be the bully if you can be. 

I hope these guys meet at some point down the line again but for now it’s nice to see the ghost of Emanuel Steward is still alive in the ring and the fact that it’s through his son is pretty ******* cool.

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Also Fury pretending to lick the blood was incredible. Reminded my of when BJ Penn licked blood off his gloves. 

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7 hours ago, King P said:

Props to Fury. He was screwed in the 1st fight, made sure to take the fight out the judges hands this fight.

Wilder was done after the 4th. His legs were completely gone and they never came back. The stoppage was a good one. Fury was smothering his own work, 1 more shot would have ended it forreal.

For all Wilder's power, his technique is piss poor. He becomes too dependent on landing his money shot, but did nothing to set it up. From the beginning, I said he needed to jab to the body and follow upstairs with the right. He doesn't set up any of his punches, despite having a pretty good jab.

Wilder also should never come in at 230. That was a detriment. He needs to come in at his usual weight of 215-220. 225 at the most

Hard for extra weight to matter for better or worse with a busted eardrum. That Wilder still threw punches with a wrecked ear for rounds upon rounds after is one of the most impressive displays of heart I’ve ever seen. Guys with busted ears usually quit way earlier and rightfully so. 

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2 hours ago, Hael said:

Your grandfather was right.  Boxing is unlike most sports and honestly the level of fighters in the 60s and 70s was considerably higher than today.  Part of that is selection effects (boxing used to be the most popular sport in the world, and now its probably not even top ten).  But by every metric things aren’t better.  The best punching power stats (ppi) were set decades ago.  George Foreman could come in age 40 something and bully Holyfield, who in turn would make someone like Wilder look like an infant.  

Fury is an interesting fighter though.  He does not suck and could probably hold his own in any era.  No he’s not beating Ali or Tyson, or even a Lennox Lewis but for a guy that size with that long reach, his handspeed, head movement and overall agility is quite impressive.  He’s probably the first heavyweight in a long time who’s level can be said to be respectable relative to the old days.

I’ll bite. I think Fury at his best (Wlad and last night) takes Lennox in his prime. I am a die hard Lennox fan and I have actually met him a few times and he’s hella inspiring, but styles make fights and it’s tough to imagine a scenario where Lennox is able to get his jab going against a guy Fury’s size with his style of movement. Fun to think about though. I actually think Fury takes almost everyone from that core group of the 90’s. Can’t emphasize this enough but you don’t realize how big he is until you’re standing next to him. 

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2 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

It seems to me that Lennox Lewis never got the credit he deserved.

He was really, really good, and seemed like a class act. I'm not sure about this, but if I remember correctly in his prime, he never had a "nemesis" the way Ali, Frazier and Foreman, or Tyson and Holyfield had each other. I can't remember him fighting anyone I thought had anywhere near his talent, or ever being in a "mega fight." That's not his fault, of course, but I think it hurts him in a historical sense.

Larry Holmes was another one like that... great fighter, wrong time.

Thoughts? Am I simply forgetting, and completely wrong about this?

From the general public maybe, in the boxing community Lennox and Holmes get their due for sure. I suppose the general sports media shorts both but that's the way it's always been with casual boxing reporters/fans. Lewis had a premier run but for a long time in a good era reality is everyone ducked him including Holyfield and Tyson, later on everyone saw why. Holmes came at the tail end of the golden era for HW's and yeah, probably got caught in an in-between era like the Klitschkos did. In hindsight a lot of the guys Holmes beat in his run have been recognized in hindsight. Those guys that Tyson and Holyfield fought in the 80s/90s are a lot better than casual fans give them credit for (Spinks, Douglas, Bowe...etc).

Current era of HW is similar. Even the second tier guys like Joseph Parker and Ortiz are very respected in the inner circles.

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2 hours ago, Vader said:

seriously, george foreman was a monster of a man in his day — at 6’4”. Lennox was 6’5".

Fury has 4-5” on guys that are 6’4”-6’5”, and his quick as a cat, agile, can box, and there’s a lot more power than it seems coming from that dad bod.

total clinic last night.

 

People are ripping on his body and hey, fair game he takes it all in stride, but just to keep things in context he's a guy that ballooned up to 400 pounds, got his weight back down and has some pretty insane cardio. At his size to be able to do what he does should not be possible. By any measure except not looking like DK Metcalk the guy is one of the top freak athletes (if you want to lump fighters in as athletes) in the world.

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Eddie Hearn has been making the rounds today saying let's make the fight for summer and they are cool with a 50/50 split. We'll see. Hearn is a bit of a snake and Fury for sure is going to want another fight soon. Fingers crossed but after the last few years I don't trust the Joshua camp at all to make a fight like this.

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5 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Oh how I long for the days of Pinklon Thomas and Greg Page!

Pinklon Thomas won the WBC HW belt. Ray Mercer was an Olympic gold medalist. Not for nothing but you guys sound pretty ridiculous. These aren't things you accomplish in fighting if you can't fight.

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9 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

People always underrate the fighters who aren’t the most aesthetically appealing. I think Fury and both Klitschko’s could have competed in any era. Anyone writing them off is overly nostalgic or not giving these guys their due. There’s a reason all those actually involved in the sport rate him as highly as they do.

Fury is freakishly athletic for a man of that size. Even when he had the weight on there were videos of him hitting pads and his head/hand movement didn’t look real. Between his look and his early fights people have always written him off – he was the underdog for all three of his title fights and was clearly the superior fighter in each of them. 

He was utterly terrifying on Saturday. People always talk about the fear Wilder evokes but I honestly think it would be worse to just get systematically dismantled like that with no real escape. He did a similar demolition on Derek Chisora in 2014 which was the first sign that he was really putting his skills together. He left Wilder utterly helpless and the corner done him a favour.

There is a great interview with Chisora where he breaks down that fight in hindsight. Basically says it's impossible to spar and prep for a guy like Fury because of the range. He's able to land his jab from distances that nobody out there can. Even when Chisora thought he was out of range he was still getting hit. Fury's jab was VICIOUS on Saturday, and the times that Wilder stuck his hands out to block it, Fury was able to disguise his hooks and land around them. Nobody else in boxing can do that against someone the size of Wilder.

If he keeps it together mentally I think he's going to own this era. If the Fury from Sat shows up against Joshua, AJ is getting knocked out. Think about when Lennox fought Tyson and Tua, they couldn't get close without getting punished. Fury is able to do that to guys that are Lennox's size.

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5 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

These guys can all fight.  I actually think Pinklon Thomas and Terrible Tim Witherspoon were underrated.  I loved Greg Page, but I think he didn't take fighting seriously and squandered his talent.  His injury and death are a tragedy.  OTOH, these aren't generational talents that people that don't love the sport are going to care about.

My point was that some of these guys are bemoaning the fact that the fight game isn't what it was.  No sh*t.  We have literally been hearing about this forever.  The times they are a-changin' and the older generation always denigrates the new.  I very much remember how the alphabet soup watered down being champion and the time that @Greenbloodblitz longs for was considered a barren desert compared to the true golden age - but you aren't going to have Ali, Frazier and Foreman come along at the same time too often. 

Heavyweight was generally considered a wasteland before Tyson came along. I think these big guys always get a bad rap because they move so much differently.  I even think (no, I didn't see him live!) Primo Carnera got an undeservedly horrible reputation over that. I am sure that some of his fights were fixed, but I have seen film of some.  Size like that is always awkward and always difficult to overcome.  The little guys being touted like Tyson and Holyfield would have had a ton of trouble dealing with any of these giants - Klitschkos, Fury, etc.  Holyfield left it all in the ring, but he was really a cruiserweight.  200 is practically average weight these days. 

Basically, I feel like I am listening to my grandfather complain because these new guys suck compared to Dempsey and Tunney.  "Keep your left up!"

Ah, I see. Misread your posts. I don't read in depth too much when I think people are dogging fighters.

And yeah, well said. Lennox and Bowe and shortly after the Klitschkos changed the division forever. Guys like Joe Louis and Ali are gods to me but if we are all being honest in this era of HW boxing those two would be LHW's or cruisers or even lighter considering how weight cuts factor into the game so much more now. They were both smaller than Usyk who is small for the division as is. I don't think casual fans realize how big heavyweights are nowadays. Look back at how Foreman was viewed as a freak and he'd be a lighter guy in this era, i.e. he was 220 in Zaire. Joshua weighed in at 238 in the second Ruiz fight and everyone was touting how skinny he looked. Or even crazier everyone calls Ruiz short but he's literally the same height as Joe Louis.

Long story short I don't think it's been the decline of HW's, it's just been the idea of finding guys that big and athletic that still want to box. HW's nowadays are the size of defensive ends. The guys with the bodies from the 40's through the 80's/90's that would have been heavyweights in those eras go down to MW through Cruiser now.

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4 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

I have said much of this, but I don't know how much I agree.  Foreman might have been 250-260 of pure punching power nowadays.  Ali and Foreman were considered pretty freakish, but people just keep getting more freakish.  I blame Similac.  I think it works better in MMA because they altered the weight classes to deal with today's athletes.  What is light-heavy?  205?  

I agree about other sports.  That is just where the money is, but that is why  things seem to have gotten more international.  

I was kind of dogging Pinklon and Page (RIP) but only in terms of being guys winning titles during the era some of these guys were saying was so superior.  The Golden Age is the Golden Age.  Even with 3 or 4 federations, it is going to be tough to have fate converge into 3 undefeated gold medal heavyweight titleholders facing each other ever again.

It's funny because Tyson was probably the last one that fully captivated the general public and he is an example of one of these smaller guys that had trouble with some of these more freakish dudes.  My dad and I are convinced that is why Foreman came back.  Looking at Tyson he probably saw a lesser Smokin' Joe.  I loved Frazier.  I met him once and he was killing shrimp cocktail, but what Foreman did to him was scary.  OTOH, I think Tyson always saw himself as Dempsey.

205 and then it’s another 20 pounds to HW. Also 15 lbs from welter to middle with nothing in between. The whole thing is ridiculous, they had a few guys almost die from weight cuts and they still refuse to change anything. 

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2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

So MMA is just as bad?  I was at the Gatti-Gamache fight when Gatti came in at 160 after supposedly weighing in at 141.  Plenty of ugly stuff going on to this day.  Strangely, Deontay Wilder claiming that he lost because his costume was too heavy bothers me as much as most of it.

Not just as bad, worse. MMA is way worse when it comes to this stuff. Almost a regular thing for at least 1-2 fighters to miss weight and it happens on main cards way more often than boxing. The weight classes (and scoring systems) they use are preposterous. Picture a guy that walks around at 185 regularly. That gives him two choices because fighting at his natural weight of 185 isn't even an option: 1. Cut down to 170 and go up against guys that walk around at 200-215 or even larger regularly, or 2. Cut 30 pounds and drop to lightweight. For example the latter is what Khabib does to an even greater degree (he walks around at 210 and cuts to 155) and prior to becoming champ he wrecked a card himself with weight cutting issues once upon a time. Dana says he doesn't want more weight classes because he doesn't want MMA to become like boxing's oversaturation with belts, but everyone knows that's because of the alphabet organizations, not the amount of weight classes.

Also throw in how much MMA fighters get paid compared to boxers which is astoundingly less. It's a brutal career path to choose.

Worth noting that one of the larger MMA orgs in Asia (One) tests for hydration levels prior to weigh-ins, which has been a godsend for regulating weight cuts, but it's hard to imagine that coming to the U.S. any time soon. Dana has a stranglehold on the entire sport and what he says goes.

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On 2/25/2020 at 12:23 PM, #27TheDominator said:

Oh well.  I was hoping that MMA was better because I don't know it as well and haven't followed it lately. 

MMA is better in the sense that the best almost always fight the best. There's not much ******* around when you have two true top guys in a division; barring injuries they will usually fight because the best fighters in MMA are all under the same organization. What happened in boxing with Floyd and Manny and now Joshua with Wilder/Fury and Spence/Crawford almost never happens in MMA. That said the fight business is the fight business, just because MMA doesn't have Mafia roots like boxing has does not mean it still isn't corrupt AF.

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57 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I remember in the old days, guys would run off to Japan or elsewhere.  I think we thought that the PRIDE guys got more money, but later it turned out they didn't.   

Some did. The Gracies used to come back with bags of cash from a lot of those old events. Others not so much. There are stories about Rickson flying back with suitcases filled to the brim with stacks of money after the first few Prides. Others never saw a dime.

Guys still run off to Japan for extra pay btw. There is an organization called Rizin that uses old Pride rules and is Yakuza'd the **** up. Fighters head out there all the time.

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