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Darnold Schwarzenegger

Wilder V Fury II

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44 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Eddie Hearn has been making the rounds today saying let's make the fight for summer and they are cool with a 50/50 split. We'll see. Hearn is a bit of a snake and Fury for sure is going to want another fight soon. Fingers crossed but after the last few years I don't trust the Joshua camp at all to make a fight like this.

It all comes down to WIlder's choice for a rematch or not... 

that ties Fury's hands

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3 hours ago, Greenbloodblitz said:

I couldn't stand Lennox Lewis back in the day but he actually pulled out a lot of wins against a lot of really good Fighters. He could adjust his style to each individual and was a very smart fighter in the ring.

Go to YouTube if you want to check out a classic  I think he actually lost .....Lennox Lewis vs Merciless Ray Mercer!

Meh. 

No need for YouTube I remember Ray Mercer very well, and I think he’s the perfect example to make my point about that era. He was a good fighter, tough, and always gave a great effort. He was the “guy nobody wants to fight” type. The kind of fighter you keep a young guy building a resume, or on the verge of a title shot away from.

In a “golden age” he’s the guy on the card who comes into the ring at 11pm, not at midnight. A just below the top of the card fighter, yet there he was, a headliner in the Lewis era.

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ahhh    the glory days of ruddock and mercer...

ffs

anyone who is touting these journeyman...           shoould not be taken seriously

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People always underrate the fighters who aren’t the most aesthetically appealing. I think Fury and both Klitschko’s could have competed in any era. Anyone writing them off is overly nostalgic or not giving these guys their due. There’s a reason all those actually involved in the sport rate him as highly as they do.

Fury is freakishly athletic for a man of that size. Even when he had the weight on there were videos of him hitting pads and his head/hand movement didn’t look real. Between his look and his early fights people have always written him off – he was the underdog for all three of his title fights and was clearly the superior fighter in each of them. 

He was utterly terrifying on Saturday. People always talk about the fear Wilder evokes but I honestly think it would be worse to just get systematically dismantled like that with no real escape. He did a similar demolition on Derek Chisora in 2014 which was the first sign that he was really putting his skills together. He left Wilder utterly helpless and the corner done him a favour.

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5 hours ago, Losmeister said:

ahhh    the glory days of ruddock and mercer...

ffs

anyone who is touting these journeyman...           shoould not be taken seriously

I guess you're just trying to be funny, or you suffer from hypogonadism?

If you actually read my post, I referred to the decline of heavyweight boxing overall. If you do your research the 70s and 90s were the greatest eras of boxing. Not only is this my opinion but it's the opinion of all the boxing historians and all of the magazines and websites look it up.

 I stand by my opinion that if the two guys we saw the other night are the best heavyweight fighters in the world, from an actual skill standpoint this is obviously a weak era.

It is possible I'm spoiled from all of the great fights I have seen and I am absolutely stating without question that the contenders in the 90s, meaning guys that were ranked 5th 7th and 10th Etc would absolutely cream either guy that was in the ring on Saturday night.

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5 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Oh how I long for the days of Pinklon Thomas and Greg Page!

Pinklon Thomas won the WBC HW belt. Ray Mercer was an Olympic gold medalist. Not for nothing but you guys sound pretty ridiculous. These aren't things you accomplish in fighting if you can't fight.

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9 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

People always underrate the fighters who aren’t the most aesthetically appealing. I think Fury and both Klitschko’s could have competed in any era. Anyone writing them off is overly nostalgic or not giving these guys their due. There’s a reason all those actually involved in the sport rate him as highly as they do.

Fury is freakishly athletic for a man of that size. Even when he had the weight on there were videos of him hitting pads and his head/hand movement didn’t look real. Between his look and his early fights people have always written him off – he was the underdog for all three of his title fights and was clearly the superior fighter in each of them. 

He was utterly terrifying on Saturday. People always talk about the fear Wilder evokes but I honestly think it would be worse to just get systematically dismantled like that with no real escape. He did a similar demolition on Derek Chisora in 2014 which was the first sign that he was really putting his skills together. He left Wilder utterly helpless and the corner done him a favour.

There is a great interview with Chisora where he breaks down that fight in hindsight. Basically says it's impossible to spar and prep for a guy like Fury because of the range. He's able to land his jab from distances that nobody out there can. Even when Chisora thought he was out of range he was still getting hit. Fury's jab was VICIOUS on Saturday, and the times that Wilder stuck his hands out to block it, Fury was able to disguise his hooks and land around them. Nobody else in boxing can do that against someone the size of Wilder.

If he keeps it together mentally I think he's going to own this era. If the Fury from Sat shows up against Joshua, AJ is getting knocked out. Think about when Lennox fought Tyson and Tua, they couldn't get close without getting punished. Fury is able to do that to guys that are Lennox's size.

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1 hour ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Pinklon Thomas won the WBC HW belt. Ray Mercer was an Olympic gold medalist. Not for nothing but you guys sound pretty ridiculous. These aren't things you accomplish in fighting if you can't fight.

These guys can all fight.  I actually think Pinklon Thomas and Terrible Tim Witherspoon were underrated.  I loved Greg Page, but I think he didn't take fighting seriously and squandered his talent.  His injury and death are a tragedy.  OTOH, these aren't generational talents that people that don't love the sport are going to care about.

My point was that some of these guys are bemoaning the fact that the fight game isn't what it was.  No sh*t.  We have literally been hearing about this forever.  The times they are a-changin' and the older generation always denigrates the new.  I very much remember how the alphabet soup watered down being champion and the time that @Greenbloodblitz longs for was considered a barren desert compared to the true golden age - but you aren't going to have Ali, Frazier and Foreman come along at the same time too often. 

Heavyweight was generally considered a wasteland before Tyson came along. I think these big guys always get a bad rap because they move so much differently.  I even think (no, I didn't see him live!) Primo Carnera got an undeservedly horrible reputation over that. I am sure that some of his fights were fixed, but I have seen film of some.  Size like that is always awkward and always difficult to overcome.  The little guys being touted like Tyson and Holyfield would have had a ton of trouble dealing with any of these giants - Klitschkos, Fury, etc.  Holyfield left it all in the ring, but he was really a cruiserweight.  200 is practically average weight these days. 

Basically, I feel like I am listening to my grandfather complain because these new guys suck compared to Dempsey and Tunney.  "Keep your left up!"

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On 2/21/2020 at 8:16 PM, Greenbloodblitz said:

Tyson Fury is at least a good boxer but he really doesn't have power. Fury is the superior boxer.

I am a betting man so I will say Fury wins by knockout in the 8th!

 

Hey dude nice call! 

 

the simpsons GIF

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5 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

These guys can all fight.  I actually think Pinklon Thomas and Terrible Tim Witherspoon were underrated.  I loved Greg Page, but I think he didn't take fighting seriously and squandered his talent.  His injury and death are a tragedy.  OTOH, these aren't generational talents that people that don't love the sport are going to care about.

My point was that some of these guys are bemoaning the fact that the fight game isn't what it was.  No sh*t.  We have literally been hearing about this forever.  The times they are a-changin' and the older generation always denigrates the new.  I very much remember how the alphabet soup watered down being champion and the time that @Greenbloodblitz longs for was considered a barren desert compared to the true golden age - but you aren't going to have Ali, Frazier and Foreman come along at the same time too often. 

Heavyweight was generally considered a wasteland before Tyson came along. I think these big guys always get a bad rap because they move so much differently.  I even think (no, I didn't see him live!) Primo Carnera got an undeservedly horrible reputation over that. I am sure that some of his fights were fixed, but I have seen film of some.  Size like that is always awkward and always difficult to overcome.  The little guys being touted like Tyson and Holyfield would have had a ton of trouble dealing with any of these giants - Klitschkos, Fury, etc.  Holyfield left it all in the ring, but he was really a cruiserweight.  200 is practically average weight these days. 

Basically, I feel like I am listening to my grandfather complain because these new guys suck compared to Dempsey and Tunney.  "Keep your left up!"

Ah, I see. Misread your posts. I don't read in depth too much when I think people are dogging fighters.

And yeah, well said. Lennox and Bowe and shortly after the Klitschkos changed the division forever. Guys like Joe Louis and Ali are gods to me but if we are all being honest in this era of HW boxing those two would be LHW's or cruisers or even lighter considering how weight cuts factor into the game so much more now. They were both smaller than Usyk who is small for the division as is. I don't think casual fans realize how big heavyweights are nowadays. Look back at how Foreman was viewed as a freak and he'd be a lighter guy in this era, i.e. he was 220 in Zaire. Joshua weighed in at 238 in the second Ruiz fight and everyone was touting how skinny he looked. Or even crazier everyone calls Ruiz short but he's literally the same height as Joe Louis.

Long story short I don't think it's been the decline of HW's, it's just been the idea of finding guys that big and athletic that still want to box. HW's nowadays are the size of defensive ends. The guys with the bodies from the 40's through the 80's/90's that would have been heavyweights in those eras go down to MW through Cruiser now.

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1 hour ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Ah, I see. Misread your posts. I don't read in depth too much when I think people are dogging fighters.

And yeah, well said. Lennox and Bowe and shortly after the Klitschkos changed the division forever. Guys like Joe Louis and Ali are gods to me but if we are all being honest in this era of HW boxing those two would be LHW's or cruisers or even ligter considering how weight cuts factor into the game so much more now. They were both smaller than Usyk who is small for the division as is. I don't think casual fans realize how big heavyweights are nowadays. Look back at how Foreman was viewed as a freak and he'd be a lighter guy in this era, i.e. he was 220 in Zaire. Joshua weighed in at 238 in the second Ruiz fight and everyone was touting how skinny he looked. Or even crazier everyone calls Ruiz short but he's literally the same height as Joe Louis.

Long story short I don't think it's been the decline of HW's, it's just been the idea of finding guys that big and athletic that still want to box. HW's nowadays are the size of defensive ends. The guys with the bodies from the 40's through the 80's/90's that would have been heavyweights in those eras go down to MW through Cruiser now.

I have said much of this, but I don't know how much I agree.  Foreman might have been 250-260 of pure punching power nowadays.  Ali and Foreman were considered pretty freakish, but people just keep getting more freakish.  I blame Similac.  I think it works better in MMA because they altered the weight classes to deal with today's athletes.  What is light-heavy?  205?  

I agree about other sports.  That is just where the money is, but that is why  things seem to have gotten more international.  

I was kind of dogging Pinklon and Page (RIP) but only in terms of being guys winning titles during the era some of these guys were saying was so superior.  The Golden Age is the Golden Age.  Even with 3 or 4 federations, it is going to be tough to have fate converge into 3 undefeated gold medal heavyweight titleholders facing each other ever again.

It's funny because Tyson was probably the last one that fully captivated the general public and he is an example of one of these smaller guys that had trouble with some of these more freakish dudes.  My dad and I are convinced that is why Foreman came back.  Looking at Tyson he probably saw a lesser Smokin' Joe.  I loved Frazier.  I met him once and he was killing shrimp cocktail, but what Foreman did to him was scary.  OTOH, I think Tyson always saw himself as Dempsey.

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 Deontay Wilder: “He didn’t hurt me at all, but the simple fact is my uniform was way too heavy for me. I didn’t have no legs from the beginning of the fight… I didn’t think it was going to be that heavy. It weighed 40lbs with the helmet and all the batteries.”

 

excuse me what GIF

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4 minutes ago, TokyoJetsFan said:

 

 Deontay Wilder: “He didn’t hurt me at all, but the simple fact is my uniform was way too heavy for me. I didn’t have no legs from the beginning of the fight… I didn’t think it was going to be that heavy. It weighed 40lbs with the helmet and all the batteries.”

You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried, LOL.

Isn't this funny? @#27TheDominator was just talking about Tyson in the post above this one. He'd enter the ring with a plain white towel cut to slip over his head and cover his shoulders. Now we get Vegas productions.

Somewhere Rocky Marciano is shaking his head reading Wilder's quote.

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4 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

I have said much of this, but I don't know how much I agree.  Foreman might have been 250-260 of pure punching power nowadays.  Ali and Foreman were considered pretty freakish, but people just keep getting more freakish.  I blame Similac.  I think it works better in MMA because they altered the weight classes to deal with today's athletes.  What is light-heavy?  205?  

I agree about other sports.  That is just where the money is, but that is why  things seem to have gotten more international.  

I was kind of dogging Pinklon and Page (RIP) but only in terms of being guys winning titles during the era some of these guys were saying was so superior.  The Golden Age is the Golden Age.  Even with 3 or 4 federations, it is going to be tough to have fate converge into 3 undefeated gold medal heavyweight titleholders facing each other ever again.

It's funny because Tyson was probably the last one that fully captivated the general public and he is an example of one of these smaller guys that had trouble with some of these more freakish dudes.  My dad and I are convinced that is why Foreman came back.  Looking at Tyson he probably saw a lesser Smokin' Joe.  I loved Frazier.  I met him once and he was killing shrimp cocktail, but what Foreman did to him was scary.  OTOH, I think Tyson always saw himself as Dempsey.

205 and then it’s another 20 pounds to HW. Also 15 lbs from welter to middle with nothing in between. The whole thing is ridiculous, they had a few guys almost die from weight cuts and they still refuse to change anything. 

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7 hours ago, TokyoJetsFan said:

 

 Deontay Wilder: “He didn’t hurt me at all, but the simple fact is my uniform was way too heavy for me. I didn’t have no legs from the beginning of the fight… I didn’t think it was going to be that heavy. It weighed 40lbs with the helmet and all the batteries.”

 

excuse me what GIF

So no one in wilders camp said “hey champ maybe you shouldn’t go into the ring wearing a full armor suit looking like you play dodgeball for globo  gym “

And the sh*t there giving his cornerman for throwing in the towel isn’t right. You really disagree with it and wanna “die in the ring” then keep those conversations behind closed doors. He was done, backed into a corner taking a lot of punishment, in today’s world I couldn’t see the ref letting that fight go much longer. 

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9 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

 

Long story short I don't think it's been the decline of HW's, it's just been the idea of finding guys that big and athletic that still want to box. HW's nowadays are the size of defensive ends. The guys with the bodies from the 40's through the 80's/90's that would have been heavyweights in those eras go down to MW through Cruiser now.

This. 

I used to love boxing, but over the years my interest has gone down quite a bit and it all started with the Lenox Lewis reign ( I always tune in for mayweather). He just wasn’t interesting to me and his fights bored me. But that doesn’t mean he was a bad fighter, as a matter of a fact it was the complete opposite just not a style To my liking. 
 

Anyway it took a perfect storm for me to actually end up watching this fight but I did and it was entertaining, don’t know what else guys are looking for. I mean I could’ve did with out the entrances especially Wilders, but the fight was entertaining pretty much throughout. Actually am gonna tune into both fighters next fight. Here’s to hoping I start watching more 

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On 2/21/2020 at 8:16 PM, Greenbloodblitz said:

 

I am a betting man so I will say Fury wins by knockout in the 8th!

By far and away the most impressive thing in this whole thread. Will be keeping an eye out for your thoughts before the next big fight. Kudos!

Fury is a 270 lb wrecker, kind of a freak of nature who can box. You seem to think Buster Douglas would beat him, that's what I don't get. Anyway I'll get off your lawn now.

 

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6 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

205 and then it’s another 20 pounds to HW. Also 15 lbs from welter to middle with nothing in between. The whole thing is ridiculous, they had a few guys almost die from weight cuts and they still refuse to change anything. 

So MMA is just as bad?  I was at the Gatti-Gamache fight when Gatti came in at 160 after supposedly weighing in at 141.  Plenty of ugly stuff going on to this day.  Strangely, Deontay Wilder claiming that he lost because his costume was too heavy bothers me as much as most of it.

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2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

So MMA is just as bad?  I was at the Gatti-Gamache fight when Gatti came in at 160 after supposedly weighing in at 141.  Plenty of ugly stuff going on to this day.  Strangely, Deontay Wilder claiming that he lost because his costume was too heavy bothers me as much as most of it.

Not just as bad, worse. MMA is way worse when it comes to this stuff. Almost a regular thing for at least 1-2 fighters to miss weight and it happens on main cards way more often than boxing. The weight classes (and scoring systems) they use are preposterous. Picture a guy that walks around at 185 regularly. That gives him two choices because fighting at his natural weight of 185 isn't even an option: 1. Cut down to 170 and go up against guys that walk around at 200-215 or even larger regularly, or 2. Cut 30 pounds and drop to lightweight. For example the latter is what Khabib does to an even greater degree (he walks around at 210 and cuts to 155) and prior to becoming champ he wrecked a card himself with weight cutting issues once upon a time. Dana says he doesn't want more weight classes because he doesn't want MMA to become like boxing's oversaturation with belts, but everyone knows that's because of the alphabet organizations, not the amount of weight classes.

Also throw in how much MMA fighters get paid compared to boxers which is astoundingly less. It's a brutal career path to choose.

Worth noting that one of the larger MMA orgs in Asia (One) tests for hydration levels prior to weigh-ins, which has been a godsend for regulating weight cuts, but it's hard to imagine that coming to the U.S. any time soon. Dana has a stranglehold on the entire sport and what he says goes.

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The... "My costume was too heavy" excuse has to be some kind of a world record.

I like it! :D

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I have to say this - to be a competitive athlete, you have to be kind of crazy.  You need an insane amount of belief in yourself.  When you lose, there had to be a cause other than you are too old/fat/slow/inferior.  Once you can't find a different reason, you are done.  If having a heavy costume works as an excuse for Wilder then good for him. 

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Wilder just needs one of those Rocky training video montages.  You know running up and down mountains in Siberia...

In a costume.

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On 2/25/2020 at 12:23 PM, #27TheDominator said:

Oh well.  I was hoping that MMA was better because I don't know it as well and haven't followed it lately. 

MMA is better in the sense that the best almost always fight the best. There's not much ******* around when you have two true top guys in a division; barring injuries they will usually fight because the best fighters in MMA are all under the same organization. What happened in boxing with Floyd and Manny and now Joshua with Wilder/Fury and Spence/Crawford almost never happens in MMA. That said the fight business is the fight business, just because MMA doesn't have Mafia roots like boxing has does not mean it still isn't corrupt AF.

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1 minute ago, RutgersJetFan said:

MMA is better in the sense that the best almost always fight the best. There's not much ******* around when you have two true top guys in a division; barring injuries they will usually fight because the best fighters in MMA are all under the same organization. What happened in boxing with Floyd and Manny and now Joshua with Wilder/Fury and Spence/Crawford almost never happens in MMA. That said the fight business is the fight business, just because MMA doesn't have Mafia roots like boxing has does not mean it still isn't corrupt AF.

I remember in the old days, guys would run off to Japan or elsewhere.  I think we thought that the PRIDE guys got more money, but later it turned out they didn't.   

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57 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I remember in the old days, guys would run off to Japan or elsewhere.  I think we thought that the PRIDE guys got more money, but later it turned out they didn't.   

Some did. The Gracies used to come back with bags of cash from a lot of those old events. Others not so much. There are stories about Rickson flying back with suitcases filled to the brim with stacks of money after the first few Prides. Others never saw a dime.

Guys still run off to Japan for extra pay btw. There is an organization called Rizin that uses old Pride rules and is Yakuza'd the **** up. Fighters head out there all the time.

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On 2/27/2020 at 6:34 PM, RutgersJetFan said:

Some did. The Gracies used to come back with bags of cash from a lot of those old events. Others not so much. There are stories about Rickson flying back with suitcases filled to the brim with stacks of money after the first few Prides. Others never saw a dime.

Guys still run off to Japan for extra pay btw. There is an organization called Rizin that uses old Pride rules and is Yakuza'd the **** up. Fighters head out there all the time.

There are some great stories about how the Pride officials would literally give guys phone numbers to get hooked up with "supplements". They would have it in the contract that they wouldn't be drug tested. Wanderlei Silva would actually grease himself up before fights so he couldn't get taken down. Hilarious stuff. Chael Sonnen makes some good points about the dominant guys on the Japanese circuit suddenly looking human in the US. Hard to know just how legit their wins were.
 

 

 

 

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