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Panthers shopping Guard Trai Turner


choon328
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3 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Good find.  Seems to be a pretty consistent argument there.  I think in this case you let some other team overpay him hoping he'll rediscover his love for the game in a new place.  The Jets are still licking their open sores from the last Panther OL they took in.  

Kalil was different he had already been retired and was done before he retired

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1 hour ago, jetstream23 said:

Like him....but trades always concern me.  Maybe I need to move past what Macc did with Osemele but if we trust Douglas to hone in on the appropriate compensation (Is that 4th? a 5th?) then I'd be onboard.  One other thing....Does he fit the style of Line the Jets want to run?  Is he a zone-blocking guy vs. a power-blocking guy?  What does this report of Gase wanting to line up with wide gaps between linemen mean regarding Turner?

I'm onboard with a young Pro Bowl level OG, but not every guy is a fit for what the Jets want to do.  Just think about how well a talented Le'Veon Bell jives with how Gase wants to run the ball.

Great point! We just have to have faith that JD and Gase realize what players will and will not fit the blocking techniques they choose. Right now I will give them the benefit of a doubt. The concussions should be considered and possibly bring the cost down.

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The thought of saying, "the Jets can't trade away picks bc they have so many holes" is foolish.  You're trading a pick to fill one of those holes with a Pro Bowl player.  It makes a lot more sense than taking a player with that same 3rd/4th round pick since the hit rate in those rounds is about 20%. 

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21 minutes ago, choon328 said:

The thought of saying, "the Jets can't trade away picks bc they have so many holes" is foolish.  You're trading a pick to fill one of those holes with a Pro Bowl player.  It makes a lot more sense than taking a player with that same 3rd/4th round pick since the hit rate in those rounds is about 20%. 

People here value late round draft picks way too much. We rarely hit on them yet nobody wants to trade anything for a guy who's 26 and has gone to 5 pro bowls who also plays a position of significant need for our team. Who's the best non 1st rounder we've drafted lately? Jenkins and Herndon? other than them it's not a promising list.  Aaron Donald could become available for trade and people on here would still post "Most I'd offer is a 4th and a conditional 6th that becomes a 5th if Joey Chesnut wins the next hot dog eating contest. take it or leave it"

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1 hour ago, SR24 said:

People here value late round draft picks way too much. We rarely hit on them yet nobody wants to trade anything for a guy who's 26 and has gone to 5 pro bowls who also plays a position of significant need for our team.

1) Why is it a foregone conclusion we'd be able to get Turner for a late rounder?

2) Just because we haven't hit on them historically doesn't mean they lack value.  Would you rather have Trai Turner than the careers of these guys?

  • George Kittle
  • Dak Prescott
  • Richard Sherman
  • Tyreek Hill
  • Stefon Diggs
  • Jason Kelce
  • David Bakhtiari
  • Geno Atkins
  • Antonio Brown
  • Everson Gridden
  • Jason McCourty
  • Brandon Carr
  • Jermon Bushrod
  • Jahri Evans
  • Kyle Williams
  • Marques Colston
  • Domata Peko
  • Brandon Marshall
  • Elvis Dumervill
  • Antoine Bethea
  • Trent Cole
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I doubt that Douglas makes a trade with anybody this close to draft day unless it's with one of his former organizations and he scouted the player himself.  He needs all the ammo he can get muster and getting someone else's problem only works unless know exactly what you are getting.

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10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

1) Why is it a foregone conclusion we'd be able to get Turner for a late rounder?

2) Just because we haven't hit on them historically doesn't mean they lack value.  Would you rather have Trai Turner than the careers of these guys?

  • George Kittle
  • Dak Prescott
  • Richard Sherman
  • Tyreek Hill
  • Stefon Diggs
  • Jason Kelce
  • David Bakhtiari
  • Geno Atkins
  • Antonio Brown
  • Everson Gridden
  • Jason McCourty
  • Brandon Carr
  • Jermon Bushrod
  • Jahri Evans
  • Kyle Williams
  • Marques Colston
  • Domata Peko
  • Brandon Marshall
  • Elvis Dumervill
  • Antoine Bethea
  • Trent Cole

I can mention hundreds of players that never had a meaningful NFL career that got drafted in rounds 3 and 4 the past 10 years.  The guys you mentioned are part of the 20% that do hit. It's like saying the Jets should trade for every 6th round pick this year bc one of them will be a Hall of Famer bc Tom Brady was drafted in that round.  It doesn't work like that. 

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29 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

1) Why is it a foregone conclusion we'd be able to get Turner for a late rounder?

2) Just because we haven't hit on them historically doesn't mean they lack value.  Would you rather have Trai Turner than the careers of these guys?

  • George Kittle
  • Dak Prescott
  • Richard Sherman
  • Tyreek Hill
  • Stefon Diggs
  • Jason Kelce
  • David Bakhtiari
  • Geno Atkins
  • Antonio Brown
  • Everson Gridden
  • Jason McCourty
  • Brandon Carr
  • Jermon Bushrod
  • Jahri Evans
  • Kyle Williams
  • Marques Colston
  • Domata Peko
  • Brandon Marshall
  • Elvis Dumervill
  • Antoine Bethea
  • Trent Cole

1- Idt we'll be able to get him for a late rounder. I think someone will offer a 2nd/early 3rd for him 

2- You could make a list just as long if not longer with late round picks who didn't work out which backs up my point. The draft is a total crap shoot you never know what you're going to get. I'd rather have Turner than Jachai Polite, Shepard, Adarius Stewart, Hansen, Mauldin, Dexter Mcdougle, Jalen Saunders, Jace Amaro etc it's the same game. These are just guys WE whiffed on since 2014

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24 minutes ago, choon328 said:

I can mention hundreds of players that never had a meaningful NFL career that got drafted in rounds 3 and 4 the past 10 years.  The guys you mentioned are part of the 20% that do hit. It's like saying the Jets should trade for every 6th round pick this year bc one of them will be a Hall of Famer bc Tom Brady was drafted in that round.  It doesn't work like that. 

My point is that a shot at one of those types is not something you just wave away.  Otherwise teams would constantly be trading away mid-late rounders and have it work out.  It doesn't require a mid-late rounder be a perennial Pro Bowler for the pick to be a good one or to justify holding onto the pick.

And meanwhile, like I said, there's no guarantee whatsoever that Turner will cost a late rounder.  Why would they accept anything less than a 3rd?

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7 minutes ago, SR24 said:

1- Idt we'll be able to get him for a late rounder. I think someone will offer a 2nd/early 3rd for him 

Then why is it relevant?  Because some fans are saying they don't want to part with a 4th, when that probably won't even be the asking price?

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19 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

My point is that a shot at one of those types is not something you just wave away.  Otherwise teams would constantly be trading away mid-late rounders and have it work out.  It doesn't require a mid-late rounder be a perennial Pro Bowler for the pick to be a good one or to justify holding onto the pick.

And meanwhile, like I said, there's no guarantee whatsoever that Turner will cost a late rounder.  Why would they accept anything less than a 3rd?

I never said a late rounder, I said the early 3rd for Turner. When you're picking in the 3rd round success is defined by being a starter.  That's not a late round pick. The chances of a 3rd round pick becoming a FT starter by the end of their first contract are about 20 %. So if you have a chance to get a 5x Pro Bowl player at age 26 for a pick that's you only have a 20% chance of becoming a starter its a no brainer in my opinion.  

The reality of the draft is that teams should really only keep their 1st and 2nd round picks and bundle every other pick they have to move up as close as they can to the 1st round. The only issue with that is you need lower round rookies to help with the salary cap.  But from a strictly analytically driven decision anything beyond the 2nd round is not worth the risk and you should be looking at anything and everything to minimize the risk

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21 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

Like him....but trades always concern me.  Maybe I need to move past what Macc did with Osemele but if we trust Douglas to hone in on the appropriate compensation (Is that 4th? a 5th?) then I'd be onboard.  One other thing....Does he fit the style of Line the Jets want to run?  Is he a zone-blocking guy vs. a power-blocking guy?  What does this report of Gase wanting to line up with wide gaps between linemen mean regarding Turner?

I'm onboard with a young Pro Bowl level OG, but not every guy is a fit for what the Jets want to do.  Just think about how well a talented Le'Veon Bell jives with how Gase wants to run the ball.

Good questions. But he is very intriguing on many levels. He’s young, perennial pro bowler, and highly affordable. It’s not like he wouldn’t be able to adapt to a blocking scheme. He’s not a raw rookie. Instant upgrade. But at what price? 

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6 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

Good questions. But he is very intriguing on many levels. He’s young, perennial pro bowler, and highly affordable. It’s not like he wouldn’t be able to adapt to a blacking scheme. He’s not a raw rookie. Instant upgrade. But at what price? 

We signed James Carpenter a few years ago.  By all accounts an excellent OG....but he wasn't a fit for the Jets blocking scheme.  They moved on from him and traded for Kelechi Osemele (who is now also gone).

We have a propensity around here to look at the Jets most glaring needs (OLine, Edge, WR, etc.) and then hear about some type of Pro Bowl / former Pro Bowl / excellent player at one of those positions potentially coming available and everyone here jumps onboard with that guy being the answer to the Jets problem(s).  I can't do that.  There are nuances to what the Jets want to do and what certain players do well. Trai Turner is excellent, no doubt about it.  But is he excellent for the Jets or would he simply be very good.  The team that trades for him will do so with compensation (draft pick, etc.) reflecting that he's perfect for what they want to do.

 

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1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Then why is it relevant?  Because some fans are saying they don't want to part with a 4th, when that probably won't even be the asking price?

Because the trade proposals on here are hilarious and unrealistic was the whole point of that post. Proving my point brother. Go look in the Odell wants to come to NYJ thread and you'll see what I'm talking about 

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25 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

We signed James Carpenter a few years ago.  By all accounts an excellent OG....but he wasn't a fit for the Jets blocking scheme.  They moved on from him and traded for Kelechi Osemele (who is now also gone).

We have a propensity around here to look at the Jets most glaring needs (OLine, Edge, WR, etc.) and then hear about some type of Pro Bowl / former Pro Bowl / excellent player at one of those positions potentially coming available and everyone here jumps onboard with that guy being the answer to the Jets problem(s).  I can't do that.  There are nuances to what the Jets want to do and what certain players do well. Trai Turner is excellent, no doubt about it.  But is he excellent for the Jets or would he simply be very good.  The team that trades for him will do so with compensation (draft pick, etc.) reflecting that he's perfect for what they want to do.

 

Ok I’m not to knowledgeable about blocking schemes etc. I have no idea what Gase is looking for. But doesn’t that fall more on coaching than the players? 

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5 hours ago, Butterfield said:

If you can get him for a 3rd or 4th round pick, that would be a huge upgrade.

You're not getting him for a 3rd or 4th...maybe an early or mid round 2nd with a 4-6th thrown in. His ability and consistency with an excellent contract make him desirable. I'd suspect they're going to be looking for a late 1st and end up with a 2nd. 

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44 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

We signed James Carpenter a few years ago.  By all accounts an excellent OG....but he wasn't a fit for the Jets blocking scheme.  They moved on from him and traded for Kelechi Osemele (who is now also gone).

We have a propensity around here to look at the Jets most glaring needs (OLine, Edge, WR, etc.) and then hear about some type of Pro Bowl / former Pro Bowl / excellent player at one of those positions potentially coming available and everyone here jumps onboard with that guy being the answer to the Jets problem(s).  I can't do that.  There are nuances to what the Jets want to do and what certain players do well. Trai Turner is excellent, no doubt about it.  But is he excellent for the Jets or would he simply be very good.  The team that trades for him will do so with compensation (draft pick, etc.) reflecting that he's perfect for what they want to do.

 

The question is, will Douglas look at the nuances of what the Jets want to do, or will he look for the former pro bowler?  You'd certainly hope for the former, but the Kalil signing sure screamed of the latter.

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16 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

Ok I’m not to knowledgeable about blocking schemes etc. I have no idea what Gase is looking for. But doesn’t that fall more on coaching than the players? 

It does, but some guys are better equipped than others for certain things.  Some OLinemen are big, powerful maulers....OGs that can push the guy in front of them and simply physically get you 1-2 yards almost every time.  Other guys are more athletic, they can pull, they can trap, they can get out into space and almost like a heat-seeking missile they find that Linebacker and the second level and neutralize him.  The big mauler guys maybe can't get to that second level fast enough or whiff trying to block someone in space.  Some of the smaller, more nimble blocking OGs can't hold their ground and could get pushed back or overpowered.

And then you have guys like Quenton Nelson...who can do both and can both things as good or better than almost anyone else can do either of those things individually.

I don't know enough about Trai Turner to say whether he's a fit for what Gase wants to do, I'm just saying that's an important part of figuring out whether Turner is the right kind of guy for the Jets and worth the draft pick/money it will take to get him.

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6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

The question is, will Douglas look at the nuances of what the Jets want to do, or will he look for the former pro bowler?  You'd certainly hope for the former, but the Kalil signing sure screamed of the latter.

I think the Kalil signing was a desperation move.  It was made more from need than from desire.  Beggars can't be choosers.  But now, in the offseason, the Jets should be planning and getting choosey about who they want for their specific style and strategy.

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14 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

It does, but some guys are better equipped than others for certain things.  Some OLinemen are big, powerful maulers....OGs that can push the guy in front of them and simply physically get you 1-2 yards almost every time.  Other guys are more athletic, they can pull, they can trap, they can get out into space and almost like a heat-seeking missile they find that Linebacker and the second level and neutralize him.  The big mauler guys maybe can't get to that second level fast enough or whiff trying to block someone in space.  Some of the smaller, more nimble blocking OGs can't hold their ground and could get pushed back or overpowered.

And then you have guys like Quenton Nelson...who can do both and can both things as good or better than almost anyone else can do either of those things individually.

I don't know enough about Trai Turner to say whether he's a fit for what Gase wants to do, I'm just saying that's an important part of figuring out whether Turner is the right kind of guy for the Jets and worth the draft pick/money it will take to get him.

Yea I hear you. Denver had great success with what was considered average OL talent a few years back. So do you have any idea what the Jets coaching staff wants to implement as far as blocking schemes go?

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I'll pass. Intriguing trade to fill an immediate hole but this team needs to build through the draft, as all good teams do.  We cannot give up 1st or 2nd day draft picks for veterans.  Draft a guard in the first two days of the draft and have him for 4-6 years.

I also agree that in general the Panthers must know something - whether it just be the above, that you cant pay everyone and you need to build through the draft, or that there is something to the concussion issues, or maybe Turner's agent has already broached the topic of a new contract in the highest paid guard echelon.  

Either way, not thanks.  Lets make it to the Championship or the Divisional Round of the Playoffs and then we can talk about trading for a veteran that is the last piece - ala Cromartie.

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54 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

Yea I hear you. Denver had great success with what was considered average OL talent a few years back. So do you have any idea what the Jets coaching staff wants to implement as far as blocking schemes go?

I'm no expert either but the things I seem to hear are that zone-blocking is preferred to power-blocking schemes, and now we're hearing about "wide gaps between linemen" and sets that are more spaced out.  To me, that screams nimble, athletic, quick linemen who can get where they need to get to quickly.  The old days of the "Hogs" in Washington that would just blow guys off the line and push downfield seem to be somewhat gone in this new age of smaller, quicker, faster defenders.  They want OLinemen who can pickup a CB blitz or get in front of guys like Jamal Adams....not necessarily blockers who can pushback Ted Washington or Vince Wilfork types at NT.  Look at the prototype for DTs these days.....who is considered the best one?  I'll give you a hint....this "space eater" is under 300 lbs. and offenses are terrified of him.

 

 

 

 

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For this team today, the Jets need draft picks.  Lots of draft picks.

A draft pick is potentially under contract 4 years and is cheap.  A player you trade for is expensive and likely only under contract a year or two.

We talk about the players that will be signed in FA, but we should be prepared to be disappointed.  The Jets are based in high-tax, expensive, cold Northern NJ and recruiting players who mostly grew up down South, Texas or out West.   Our HC is a bit crazy and the GM is new.  We will not be the first choice for good FAs unless we completely buy them (like Mosley, but not like Barr).   Our owners are characters from the movie Trading Places.  

The Jets need to draft a good foundation and show the league that they are no longer a Clown Show.   Then we can trade draft picks for players like Trai Turner to fill holes and compete.  

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