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This Narrative Needs To Change


KRL

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1 hour ago, KRL said:

Fans need to stop saying/thinking that there are only four first round
OT's, because there are seven.  Everyone knows the "big four" who are
getting all the media attention (Wirfs, Thomas, Wills, Becton).  But
there are three others who fit the profile that Douglas seems to be
looking for on the line (athletic, moves well in space):

Ezra Cleveland
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/ezra-cleveland?id=3219434c-4567-0117-4b64-f3ef088b9fb5

Austin Jackson
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/austin-jackson?id=32194a41-4304-1754-a4d4-5902e423feaa

Josh Jones
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/joshua-jones?id=32194a4f-4e50-6329-4716-1f544b2c7ee9

In fact these three will allow Douglas to be aggressive in fielding trade down
calls from teams looking for a QB, WR or a defender who slips
 

I agree. I dont know much about Jackson and Cleveland but I do like Josh Jones. He's the reason why I feel like trading down is possible. 

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1 hour ago, KRL said:

Fans need to stop saying/thinking that there are only four first round
OT's, because there are seven.  Everyone knows the "big four" who are
getting all the media attention (Wirfs, Thomas, Wills, Becton).  But
there are three others who fit the profile that Douglas seems to be
looking for on the line (athletic, moves well in space):

Ezra Cleveland
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/ezra-cleveland?id=3219434c-4567-0117-4b64-f3ef088b9fb5

Austin Jackson
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/austin-jackson?id=32194a41-4304-1754-a4d4-5902e423feaa

Josh Jones
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/joshua-jones?id=32194a4f-4e50-6329-4716-1f544b2c7ee9

In fact these three will allow Douglas to be aggressive in fielding trade down
calls from teams looking for a QB, WR or a defender who slips
 

Those guys, especially Austin Jackson are not the top 4 guys. I do think Cleveland is a nice consolation prize after a trade down if we can pick up a second rounder tho.

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1 hour ago, KRL said:

Fans need to stop saying/thinking that there are only four first round
OT's, because there are seven.  Everyone knows the "big four" who are
getting all the media attention (Wirfs, Thomas, Wills, Becton).  But
there are three others who fit the profile that Douglas seems to be
looking for on the line (athletic, moves well in space):

Ezra Cleveland
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/ezra-cleveland?id=3219434c-4567-0117-4b64-f3ef088b9fb5

Austin Jackson
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/austin-jackson?id=32194a41-4304-1754-a4d4-5902e423feaa

Josh Jones
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/joshua-jones?id=32194a4f-4e50-6329-4716-1f544b2c7ee9

In fact these three will allow Douglas to be aggressive in fielding trade down
calls from teams looking for a QB, WR or a defender who slips
 

Great post.  But it’s hard to think any of those three are going to be there at 48.  Which means because of our desperation, we will be drafting for need over taking more talented players at WR like Ruggs, Lamb, or Jeudy.

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37 minutes ago, Pcola said:

Great post.  But it’s hard to think any of those three are going to be there at 48.  Which means because of our desperation, we will be drafting for need over taking more talented players at WR like Ruggs, Lamb, or Jeudy.

You have a point

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40 minutes ago, Pcola said:

Great post.  But it’s hard to think any of those three are going to be there at 48.  Which means because of our desperation, we will be drafting for need over taking more talented players at WR like Ruggs, Lamb, or Jeudy.

None of them are going to be around at 48, but if Douglas trades down to the 14-18 range

they will be.  You take one of them in the 1st and pick up an extra pick or two in the 2nd or 3rd round

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I'm not even sure who we think are the top four are the top four on Joe Douglas's board. He is clearly looking for specific skill sets and attributes that fit the Gase system.

I'm just enjoying the fact that Douglas is putting his money where his mouth is and appears to have a plan to revamp the line.

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2 hours ago, KRL said:

Fans need to stop saying/thinking that there are only four first round
OT's, because there are seven.  Everyone knows the "big four" who are
getting all the media attention (Wirfs, Thomas, Wills, Becton).  But
there are three others who fit the profile that Douglas seems to be
looking for on the line (athletic, moves well in space):

Ezra Cleveland
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/ezra-cleveland?id=3219434c-4567-0117-4b64-f3ef088b9fb5

Austin Jackson
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/austin-jackson?id=32194a41-4304-1754-a4d4-5902e423feaa

Josh Jones
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/joshua-jones?id=32194a4f-4e50-6329-4716-1f544b2c7ee9

In fact these three will allow Douglas to be aggressive in fielding trade down
calls from teams looking for a QB, WR or a defender who slips
 

I'm going to trust JD's evaluation of the top OL prospects in the draft. It's fine if he's OK with one of the mid-tier OL players and gets a appealing trade down offer.

If he thinks the Jets need to come away with one of the top four guys then he has to do whatever it takes to trade up if the draft starts to look like we'll be shutout at #11.

Overall I'm satisfied with the upgrades JD has made to the OL so far in FA although I hope he's able to sign Van Roten today.

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Fans need to stop saying/thinking that there are only four first round
OT's, because there are seven.  Everyone knows the "big four" who are
getting all the media attention (Wirfs, Thomas, Wills, Becton).  But
there are three others who fit the profile that Douglas seems to be
looking for on the line (athletic, moves well in space):
Ezra Cleveland
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/ezra-cleveland?id=3219434c-4567-0117-4b64-f3ef088b9fb5
Austin Jackson
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/austin-jackson?id=32194a41-4304-1754-a4d4-5902e423feaa
Josh Jones
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/joshua-jones?id=32194a4f-4e50-6329-4716-1f544b2c7ee9
In fact these three will allow Douglas to be aggressive in fielding trade down
calls from teams looking for a QB, WR or a defender who slips
 

Great post. I’m feeling that Douglas being a former lineman and building quality lines in Baltimore and Philly can see potential. The Fant signing is better than we all thing. He held his own against Nick Bosa and seems that he is getting better with more playing time.


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There is less than a 0% chance that all "7" of these guys pan out as 10 year starters.   They're not all created equal.  That's why some are rated higher than others, you're putting them in tiers based on your confidence level to be a 10 year starter   Now, we've seen in the past the draft doesnt always bode well for the first player taken from a position group and often times it's the players selected later but I think in this scenario, assuming all 7 are insta-starters and you can settle for your #7 rated LT and just be fine, is a little bit more than glass half full.  It's Joe's job to decipher how to use the resources.  

If they have the first 4 as graded as a 9 and the next 3 graded as 7's...that's a significant drop to making sure you hit long term, IMO.   If you have WR's rated as a 9, I dont think you pass on the better player to fill a need.  The Jets have plenty of needs. 

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I'm going to trust JD's evaluation of the top OL prospects in the draft. It's fine if he's OK with one of the mid-tier OL players and gets a appealing trade down offer.
If he thinks the Jets need to come away with one of the top four guys then he has to do whatever it takes to trade up if the draft starts to look like we'll be shutout at #11.
Overall I'm satisfied with the upgrades JD has made to the OL so far in FA although I hope he's able to sign Van Roten today.


This exactly

He should be able to evaluate OL & our desired skillset for Gase better than most ... I am willing to trust his viewpoint with OL until proven otherwise


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1 hour ago, tdoublee said:

I'm not even sure who we think are the top four are the top four on Joe Douglas's board. He is clearly looking for specific skill sets and attributes that fit the Gase system.

I'm just enjoying the fact that Douglas is putting his money where his mouth is and appears to have a plan to revamp the line.

Has he though?

So far,

We re-signed a guard from an historically bad oline

We paid $10mm a year to a back-up Tackle

and signed, what seems to be a solid center at a reasonable price (this move I liked)

but let’s not pretend like this line is still anything more than crappy.

A long way to go still, but still a long way to go.

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27 minutes ago, JiF said:

There is less than a 0% chance that all "7" of these guys pan out as 10 year starters.   They're not all created equal.  That's why some are rated higher than others, you're putting them in tiers based on your confidence level to be a 10 year starter   Now, we've seen in the past the draft doesnt always bode well for the first player taken from a position group and often times it's the players selected later but I think in this scenario, assuming all 7 are insta-starters and you can settle for your #7 rated LT and just be fine, is a little bit more than glass half full.  It's Joe's job to decipher how to use the resources.  

If they have the first 4 as graded as a 9 and the next 3 graded as 7's...that's a significant drop to making sure you hit long term, IMO.   If you have WR's rated as a 9, I dont think you pass on the better player to fill a need.  The Jets have plenty of needs. 

Good post - I agree with the premise, but disagree a bit with the conclusion.

As you state, the top players don’t always pan out - and you understand that to be fact...or another way to look at - second tier or lower rated players very often end up being the better long term player...

If you’re a GM and can check your ego - then you absolutely should draft for need or Impact positions only.

If it’s essentially an educated crapshoot - then why not shoot for what you need?

 

 

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A few thoughts here for me:

1)  I think the jets will be more than happy to take a tackle at 11 or WR 11 since the value will undoubtedly be there.  

2) The possibility of a trade down has become increasingly more feasible with the current state of FA.

To me if JD values athleticism as much as it seems he may feel better about trading down a few spots to grab one of those other OT and gaining a few extra day 2 picks for his trouble.  I'm becoming increasingly convinced there will be a very good deal on the table for him by the time 11 rolls around on draft day if the WR's are all still there.  

Denver in particular is the target I keep hearing about from people I talk to.  They have made it known they are looking to add a WR weapon for Locke to pair with Sutton on the outside.  Denver currently holds the 15th pick and sits behind the Raiders, 49ers, and Bucs.  From people I talk to, and again its early so a lot can change, feel that both the raiders and 49ers will be targeting WR help in that spot since the value will fit perfectly with draft slot.  Bucs now may be increasingly looking to add another weapon for Tom now as well.  I could easily see a situation where any 4 of those teams (althought more so Denver) will be looking to trade up to 11 to grab the top WR available before they are snatched up in the next coming picks.  

There have also been rumors of the eagles moving up since the connection between Roseman and JD is strong, although people I talk to seem to think thats just out there because of the connection, not based on actual facts.   

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22 minutes ago, ljr said:

 


This exactly

He should be able to evaluate OL & our desired skillset for Gase better than most ... I am willing to trust his viewpoint with OL until proven otherwise


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

What about giving $10mm to a back up Tackle?  

Doesn’t seem like a particularly impressive viewpoint.

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4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Good post - I agree with the premise, but disagree a bit with the conclusion.

As you state, the top players don’t always pan out - and you understand that to be fact...or another way to look at - second tier or lower rated players very often end up being the better long term player...

If you’re a GM and can check your ego - then you absolutely should draft for need or Impact positions only.

If it’s essentially an educated crapshoot - then why not shoot for what you need?

 

 

Except the Jets have many needs.  You don’t select Ezra Cleveland over Henry Ruggs because you perceive LT is a bigger need than WR.  

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8 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

A few thoughts here for me:

1)  I think the jets will be more than happy to take a tackle at 11 or WR 11 since the value will undoubtedly be there.  

2) The possibility of a trade down has become increasingly more feasible with the current state of FA.

To me if JD values athleticism as much as it seems he may feel better about trading down a few spots to grab one of those other OT and gaining a few extra day 2 picks for his trouble.  I'm becoming increasingly convinced there will be a very good deal on the table for him by the time 11 rolls around on draft day if the WR's are all still there.  

Denver in particular is the target I keep hearing about from people I talk to.  They have made it known they are looking to add a WR weapon for Locke to pair with Sutton on the outside.  Denver currently holds the 15th pick and sits behind the Raiders, 49ers, and Bucs.  From people I talk to, and again its early so a lot can change, feel that both the raiders and 49ers will be targeting WR help in that spot since the value will fit perfectly with draft slot.  Bucs now may be increasingly looking to add another weapon for Tom now as well.  I could easily see a situation where any 4 of those teams (althought more so Denver) will be looking to trade up to 11 to grab the top WR available before they are snatched up in the next coming picks.  

There have also been rumors of the eagles moving up since the connection between Roseman and JD is strong, although people I talk to seem to think thats just out there because of the connection, not based on actual facts.   

If PHI wants to deal they better not expect a "friend discount".  Dropping
from 11 to 21 is going to cost, and Douglas better not cut Roseman any breaks

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9 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

What about giving $10mm to a back up Tackle?  

Doesn’t seem like a particularly impressive viewpoint.

seems too high ... but again, until I see different (and his performance next season should tell us one way or the other) I'll defer (especially with OL) to JD

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1 hour ago, Philc1 said:

The math says we are getting one of the top 4 OTs at 11 and literally every mock draft I have seen has the jets taking one of them at 11 or one of them falling past us at 11

Impossible.  Multiple posters here have sworn all four will be gone by the 3rd pick.

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48 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Good post - I agree with the premise, but disagree a bit with the conclusion.

As you state, the top players don’t always pan out - and you understand that to be fact...or another way to look at - second tier or lower rated players very often end up being the better long term player...

If you’re a GM and can check your ego - then you absolutely should draft for need or Impact positions only.

If it’s essentially an educated crapshoot - then why not shoot for what you need?

 

 

I dont think we've reached different conclusions.  I'm not advocating taking a RB or S or ILB, etc.  You obviously target a premium position, luckily for the Jets, every single premium position on an NFL roster is a need.  LT (OL in general), WR, Edge, CB, etc.   So in the spirit of building the offense, I specifically used the WR example because I also believe it's the most likely scenario. 

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52 minutes ago, KRL said:

If PHI wants to deal they better not expect a "friend discount".  Dropping
from 11 to 21 is going to cost, and Douglas better not cut Roseman any breaks

i just dont think its realistic, there are too many good players at positions of need.  It'll be a rare situation where BPA is right in lock step with Need around 11-15,  to want to drop down 10 spots is going to be too big a drop IMO. 

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55 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Except the Jets have many needs.  You don’t select Ezra Cleveland over Henry Ruggs because you perceive LT is a bigger need than WR.  

Exactly.  Why take the 2nd tier T and pass on the 1st tier WR when 2nd Tier T's will still be available in the 2nd round.  

 

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2 hours ago, KRL said:

None of them are going to be around at 48, but if Douglas trades down to the 14-18 range

they will be.  You take one of them in the 1st and pick up an extra pick or two in the 2nd or 3rd round

Should be interesting to see if JD actually does trade down considering the Jets haven't done that in the 1st round in over 20+ years 

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

What about giving $10mm to a back up Tackle?  

Doesn’t seem like a particularly impressive viewpoint.

The Lewis signing was good.  He played well last year.

Fant is only in his 5th-6th year playing football, one of which he missed with a torn ACL.  If Beacham was our fall-back, and informed Douglas he isn't returning, he had to get somebody.  

The $10 million dollars is the going rate now for a player like Fant.  What was all-pro starter money five years ago is back-up money now.  Welcome to the era of a $200 million salary cap.

Again, how about we let them suit up and play a game.

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24 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

i just dont think its realistic, there are too many good players at positions of need.  It'll be a rare situation where BPA is right in lock step with Need around 11-15,  to want to drop down 10 spots is going to be too big a drop IMO. 

Agreed

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2 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

The Lewis signing was good.  He played well last year.

Fant is only in his 5th-6th year playing football, one of which he missed with a torn ACL.  If Beacham was our fall-back, and informed Douglas he isn't returning, he had to get somebody.  

The $10 million dollars is the going rate now for a player like Fant.  What was all-pro starter money five years ago is back-up money now.  Welcome to the era of a $200 million salary cap.

Again, how about we let them suit up and play a game.

I’m not calling for JD to be fired or even saying he’s not doing a good job - the jury is def. still out - I’m just pointing out what seems obvious - people are already saying what a great job he’s done rebuilding the Oline (which he hasn’t) and calming how great he is because he won’t over pay for anyone (for which he already has)

All the same sh— we heard about Mac in his first two years.  

$10mm a year for a back-up Tackle is overpaying - yes, even in this era it’s too much.

JD hasn’t done anything particularly good or particularly egregious in FA so far.  I hope he figures it out - I’m just not going to get sucked into the hype machine this early every again.

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5 hours ago, KRL said:

Fans need to stop saying/thinking that there are only four first round
OT's, because there are seven.  Everyone knows the "big four" who are
getting all the media attention (Wirfs, Thomas, Wills, Becton).  But
there are three others who fit the profile that Douglas seems to be
looking for on the line (athletic, moves well in space):

Ezra Cleveland
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/ezra-cleveland?id=3219434c-4567-0117-4b64-f3ef088b9fb5

Austin Jackson
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/austin-jackson?id=32194a41-4304-1754-a4d4-5902e423feaa

Josh Jones
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/joshua-jones?id=32194a4f-4e50-6329-4716-1f544b2c7ee9

In fact these three will allow Douglas to be aggressive in fielding trade down
calls from teams looking for a QB, WR or a defender who slips
 

There's a significant drop off from Jones to Jackson/Cleveland

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5 hours ago, KRL said:

Fans need to stop saying/thinking that there are only four first round
OT's, because there are seven.  Everyone knows the "big four" who are
getting all the media attention (Wirfs, Thomas, Wills, Becton).  But
there are three others who fit the profile that Douglas seems to be
looking for on the line (athletic, moves well in space):

Ezra Cleveland
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/ezra-cleveland?id=3219434c-4567-0117-4b64-f3ef088b9fb5

Austin Jackson
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/austin-jackson?id=32194a41-4304-1754-a4d4-5902e423feaa

Josh Jones
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/joshua-jones?id=32194a4f-4e50-6329-4716-1f544b2c7ee9

In fact these three will allow Douglas to be aggressive in fielding trade down
calls from teams looking for a QB, WR or a defender who slips
 

 

Would you say all 7 have the capability of ending up a franchise LT? 

I'm not particularly interested in drafting a lock RT at 11, but it wouldn't be the worst thing to do.  

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