This Defense is a Decent Edge and CB from Being ELITE

[JetBlue]

Taking a break from discussion of OT/G and WRs and the offense in general, I was thinking about Gregg Williams defense and just how good could it be next year.   Considering we missed CJ Mosely most of the season, Q Williams started off slowly and needed to get in better shape, overall the team definitely was a pleasant surprise.   Even Bless Austin came out of nowhere to be a solid cb as a rookie that should be better this year.   Bringing in the Desir we have upgraded from T. Johnson.   Jamal Adams reached All pro level and should only be better this year.   Maye was over shadowed by Adams and still somewhat plagued by injuries but played well when healthy.    Or DL and Linebacker corp is definitely above average and could be superior if a few guys take that next step.    If we can bring in a decent edge rusher and another quality corner in this draft,  or from vet players who get cut for salary reasons (not of field performance) I do believe we can have a top 5 defense.   

[Patriot Killa]

You probably should rephrase the title to DEFENSE can be elite. This team, overall, is very far from elite.

[CTJetsFan]

I assume you mean the defense is 2 players away from being elite (and not the whole team)?

[Beerfish]

The problem is those are two tall orders.

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, Beerfish said:

The problem is those are two tall orders.

Thanks Macc. 

[JetBlue]

3 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

You probably should rephrase the title to DEFENSE can be elite. This team, overall, is very far from elite.

Noted.  Thanks

[Jetsfan80]

Also, any defense is usually 1 EDGE and CB away from elite.  That's the point.  Those are the only 2 positions that can make a defense elite, and we ignored them for years.  

[JetBlue]

2 minutes ago, CTJetsFan said:

I assume you mean the defense is 2 players away from being elite (and not the whole team)?

Yes and I have edited the Subject Title. 

[Patriot Killa]

1 minute ago, JetBlue said:

Noted.  Thanks

Also, I do think we’re a playmaker or two away on defense from being Elite.

we also have the coach to get the job done.

[JohnnyLV]

5 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

Taking a break from discussion of OT/G and WRs and the offense in general, I was thinking about Gregg Williams defense and just how good could it be next year.   Considering we missed CJ Mosely most of the season, Q Williams started off slowly and needed to get in better shape, overall the team definitely was a pleasant surprise.   Even Bless Austin came out of nowhere to be a solid cb as a rookie that should be better this year.   Bringing in the Desir we have upgraded from T. Johnson.   Jamal Adams reached All pro level and should only be better this year.   Maye was over shadowed by Adams and still somewhat plagued by injuries but played well when healthy.    Or DL and Linebacker corp is definitely above average and could be superior if a few guys take that next step.    If we can bring in a decent edge rusher and another quality corner in this draft,  or from vet players who get cut for salary reasons (not of field performance) I do believe we can have a top 5 defense.   

If you said the DEFENSE can be elite that is very true. Phillips, Futa, Burgess, Cashman all will be amazing situational tools to use in the defense with all the experience they got. I think Bless floor is a solid #2 if he stays healthy. All we are missing is a EDGE and #1 CB.

However for the team to be elite we need to have a roughly Top 10 offense and that has to be our requirement the next 2 offseasons for the most part.

[JetBlue]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Also, any defense is usually 1 EDGE and CB away from elite.  That's the point.  Those are the only 2 positions that can make a defense elite, and we ignored them for years.  

Not true. If your run defense is a sieve your edge is neutralized and your CB is spending most of his time tackling players ten - 15 yards downfield.    Also if your overall DLine sucks, the OL can focus on neutralizing the Edge rusher.   I understand your point but I think you are simplifying the situation a bit.  

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, JetBlue said:

Not true. If your run defense is a sieve your edge is neutralized and your CB is spending most of his time tackling players ten - 15 yards downfield.    Also if your overall DLine sucks, the OL can focus on neutralizing the Edge rusher.   I understand your point but I think you are simplifying the situation a bit.  

 

We've had elite run defense a bunch of times in the last decade.  Hasn't helped us a bit.  

[Bungaman]

4 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

Taking a break from discussion of OT/G and WRs and the offense in general, I was thinking about Gregg Williams defense and just how good could it be next year.   Considering we missed CJ Mosely most of the season, Q Williams started off slowly and needed to get in better shape, overall the team definitely was a pleasant surprise.   Even Bless Austin came out of nowhere to be a solid cb as a rookie that should be better this year.   Bringing in the Desir we have upgraded from T. Johnson.   Jamal Adams reached All pro level and should only be better this year.   Maye was over shadowed by Adams and still somewhat plagued by injuries but played well when healthy.    Or DL and Linebacker corp is definitely above average and could be superior if a few guys take that next step.    If we can bring in a decent edge rusher and another quality corner in this draft,  or from vet players who get cut for salary reasons (not of field performance) I do believe we can have a top 5 defense.   

I agree. A more normal year of injuries (as in a lot less of them, towards the numerical mean,) and a second year in GW's system, means they will be faster because they are reacting, not thinking, and the personnel has been upgraded. After all, Mosely and Williamson were not just the starters, but the assigned field generals. Having them back I believe will result in less missed assignments and occasional breakdowns. I am in no rush to unload our inside LB's as some others are: let's see what we've got before we trade it away. I also think GW might take newly signed LB Onwuasor and make him an edge rusher.

[Greenbloodblitz]

 I knew exactly what the OP meant, and I completely agree. The defense is really goddamn stout. Everybody can feel the defense right now is almost lightning in a bottle, and it's cause of Greg Williams. One or two more pieces and that side of the ball is playoff ready! 

We have been talkin ad nauseam about offensive tackles and Robby Anderson. The simple fact is Greg Williams had a bunch of guys off the street performing at a very high level last year and we need to take advantage of that! I agree wholeheartedly JetBlue kudos to you

[JetBlue]

1 minute ago, johnnysd said:

If you said the DEFENSE can be elite that is very true. Phillips, Futa, Burgess, Cashman all will be amazing situational tools to use in the defense with all the experience they got. I think Bless floor is a solid #2 if he stays healthy. All we are missing is a EDGE and #1 CB.

However for the team to be elite we need to have a roughly Top 10 offense and that has to be our requirement the next 2 offseasons for the most part.

lol again, yes I meant DEFENSE. I have changed it in the subject title.    I also agree with your overall assessment regarding the team.  Basically we are looking at 2021-22 season to hopefully have but it all together. 

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

Not true. If your run defense is a sieve your edge is neutralized and your CB is spending most of his time tackling players ten - 15 yards downfield.    Also if your overall DLine sucks, the OL can focus on neutralizing the Edge rusher.   I understand your point but I think you are simplifying the situation a bit.  

 

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

We've had elite run defense a bunch of times in the last decade.  Hasn't helped us a bit.  

 

Also, I'm not saying an elite EDGE and CB automatically makes a D elite.  Only saying those are the only 2 positions that can POTENTIALLY put you over the top.  You cannot have an elite defense without either a pass rush, stout secondary, or both.  

[JetBlue]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

We've had elite run defense a bunch of times in the last decade.  Hasn't helped us a bit.  

Huh?  Didn't I just say we needed an Edge and CB???  We have not had a consistent legit Edge rusher since John Abraham.  

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, JetBlue said:

Huh?  Didn't I just say we needed an Edge and CB???  C'mon man, keep up lol. 

Yes and I'm saying that's the formula to a potential elite D for any team.  Seemingly all teams but the Jets have been using high draft picks on CB's and EDGE guys for years.  

Since we likely can't afford to draft an EDGE or CB high this year I've been advocating we sign Everson Griffen and/or Logan Ryan.  

[jgb]

So with good players at the two most important positions, the defense can be good. That describes every unit in the league that isn’t already good.

[rangerous]

considering that there are only a handful of shutdown corners and elite edge rushers kind of means no defense is elite.  it takes more than that.  clowney was on the other side of the line from jjwatt and he never was the sackmaster he was touted to be.  about the only guy who will give the offense fits these days is garrett, but he's got some serious anger issues.  it takes more than that and of the two i'd rather see the elite corner.

the biggest thing that will help this defense become elite is for the offense to score some points.

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, rangerous said:

considering that there are only a handful of shutdown corners and elite edge rushers kind of means no defense is elite.  

All that means is teams who can't find an elite EDGE or CB need to have a bunch of both.  Always be drafting EDGE rushers and CB's so you always have a few decent ones and just kind of fill in the gaps cheaply at DT, ILB, and S.  And if you have to spend big in free agency, only spend big on EDGE and CB.  That's the formula.  

The Packers signed EDGE guys Preston Smith and  Z'Darious Smith last offseason and it pretty much transformed their defense.  They were the # 10 pass defense (per DVOA) in 2019 after finishing 28th in that category the year before.  

[JetBlue]

4 minutes ago, Bungaman said:

I agree. A more normal year of injuries (as in a lot less of them, towards the numerical mean,) and a second year in GW's system, means they will be faster because they are reacting, not thinking, and the personnel has been upgraded. After all, Mosely and Williamson were not just the starters, but the assigned field generals. Having them back I believe will result in less missed assignments and occasional breakdowns. I am in no rush to unload our inside LB's as some others are: let's see what we've got before we trade it away. I also think GW might take newly signed LB Onwuasor and make him an edge rusher.

Yes I read that Onwuasor has played edge before but he is only 227 llbs so I don't think he is someone we would be able to depend on.    Julina Okwara,  Usche, Zack Baun, Curtis Weaver, or Alex Hightower in the later rounds.  Anyone of them would be awesome.  

[New York Mick]

If only they drafted Josh Allen. He would of made the team elite just like he did Jax. Championships left and right 

@JiF 

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, New York Mick said:

If only they drafted Josh Allen. He would of made the team elite just like he did Jax. Championships left and right 

@JiF 

Your relentless antagonism toward a rookie who had 10.5 sacks, 2 FFs, 11 TFLs and 23 QB Hits despite only starting 4 games is just sad at this point, lol.

Just take the L and move on.  

[New York Mick]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Your relentless antagonism toward a rookie who had 10.5 sacks, 2 FFs and 23 QB Hits is just sad at this point, lol.

It’s actually quiet funny thank you very much. It also proves the offense especially protecting the QB and getting him playmakers is way more important then a passrusher. 

[JetsFanShawn]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Your relentless antagonism toward a rookie who had 10.5 sacks, 2 FFs, 11 TFLs and 23 QB Hits despite only starting 4 games is just sad at this point, lol.

Just take the L and move on.  

yea i know right

[GreenFish]

I agree. I’m expecting good years from Bless Austin and Desir. So I’d go as far as saying, we’d be elite if we get just 1 above average edge.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, New York Mick said:

It’s actually quiet funny thank you very much. It also proves the offense especially protecting the QB and getting him playmakers is way more important then a passrusher. 

No one ever argued OL as a whole is more important than EDGE.  You've been arguing this like you're the first person to suggest it.  

The problem is not all OL positions are the same value.  Is an Elite Center worth more than an Elite EDGE?  Absolutely not.  Is an Elite LT more valuable than an Elite EDGE?  Yes.  

[JetsFanShawn]

defense

[New York Mick]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

No one ever argued OL is more important than EDGE.  You've been arguing this like you're the first person to suggest it.  

The problem is not all OL positions are the same value. 

Actually a lot of posters argued that.
The most important position is obviously QB followed by the oline as a unit then ED/CB. 

[JetBlue]

4 minutes ago, rangerous said:

considering that there are only a handful of shutdown corners and elite edge rushers kind of means no defense is elite.  it takes more than that.  clowney was on the other side of the line from jjwatt and he never was the sackmaster he was touted to be.  about the only guy who will give the offense fits these days is garrett, but he's got some serious anger issues.  it takes more than that and of the two i'd rather see the elite corner.

Of course it takes more than that!   You need play makers on defense just like on offense.   I am not talking in generalities.  Specifically we have some very good defensive lineman, same with our line backing corp.  OF COURSE YOU NEED TALENTED PLAYERS THROUGH OUT THE DEFENSE.  I kind of thought that went without saying.   I am speaking specifically of our defense becoming elite.   We have the best safety tandem in football.  One of the most talented DLines in football.  in CJ, Williamson, Jenkins, Hewitt, Cashman etc.  we also have a very good linebacking corp.   Bless Austin, Steve Desir, Brian Poole, Arthur Maulet are serviceable.  If we can add a top corner that could make this unit above average as well.   Which brings me to Edge.  A consistent pass rush is the only thing stopping this team from going to the next level.   Take all of the above considerations and than add in the coaching and schemes of Gregg Williams and that is why I am saying we are close to having an Elite Defense.  

 Btw what does this have to do with Clowney?   What you posted is an indictment of him as a player and nothing to do with THE MAKE UP OF OUR TEAM. 

[New York Mick]

3 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

I agree. I’m expecting good years from Bless Austin and Desir. So I’d go as far as saying, we’d be elite if we get just 1 above average edge. Where’s that guy coming from though? Clowney on a 1 year deal, maybe?

Clowney would be costly and has injury concerns. 

[JetBlue]

4 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

I agree. I’m expecting good years from Bless Austin and Desir. So I’d go as far as saying, we’d be elite if we get just 1 above average edge. Where’s that guy coming from though? Clowney on a 1 year deal, maybe?

The draft

[Jetsfan80]

7 minutes ago, New York Mick said:

Actually a lot of posters argued that. The most important position is obviously QB followed by the oline as a unit then ED/CB. 

We are agreed on this.  But how you're going about arguing it is just silly.  In most drafts, you can find top-flight interior OL in the 2nd-4th rounds.  The same is not the case for EDGE rushers.  So, you can take the EDGE early and still improve the OL later.  

In last year's draft, we could have very easily eaten our cake and had it too.  We could have taken Allen in the first and still improved the OL by taking someone like G Michael Deiter or G Nate Davis in the 3rd round.  Instead we decided to take the pass rusher in the 3rd and it failed miserably, because Macc blows.

This idea that you should avoid EDGE/CB early in drafts entirely just because it's not as important as OL is just plain silly.  All successful franchises are constantly looking for EDGE rushers and CB's, and understand the notion that interior OL doesn't always require 1st round picks to get fixed/improved.

[JetBlue]

21 minutes ago, Greenbloodblitz said:

 I knew exactly what the OP meant, and I completely agree. The defense is really goddamn stout. Everybody can feel the defense right now is almost lightning in a bottle, and it's cause of Greg Williams. One or two more pieces and that side of the ball is playoff ready! 

We have been talkin ad nauseam about offensive tackles and Robby Anderson. The simple fact is Greg Williams had a bunch of guys off the street performing at a very high level last year and we need to take advantage of that! I agree wholeheartedly JetBlue kudos to you

Thanks my friend.