Shocking, An Article From Mehta That's Not Childish!!!

[kdels62]

46 minutes ago, RichardTodd27 said:

I hear this a lot. Are Josh Jones and Ezra Cleveland that much more athletic (and long) than a more proven name like Andrew Thomas? How exactly are they better fits than Thomas?

Andrew Thomas is more athletic, longer and more fine-tuned than Josh Jones. Ezra Cleveland is a good prospect but needs a lot more work than both Jones and Thomas. So neither should be considered options over Thomas.

[jgb]

He says something positive—we love him!

He says something negative—what a troll!

[freestater]

Great article and all, but the real test is in 3 weeks. If Joe can draft, he'll be here for a while and we'll all throw roses at his feet. If he's like his predecessors, $100 tips and holistic company synergy wont mean ?

[Beerfish]

Hey it all comes down to your belief in your coach. 

If this is the strategy you are going to take then Gase should be extended for the same length as the GM.

Adam Gase is not John Harbaugh.

Gase has a lousy resume and building a team with players to suit a lousy coach is not a good strategy for winning.

If you love Adam Gase you should be all for this way of doing things.  If you do not like Adam Gase you should be a bit horrified.

Mac at least to some extent drafted and signed free agents for Bowles, that is how we got utter scrubs like Darron Lee and Trumaine Johnson.

 

[CanadaSteve]

4 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Come on....

“He is a careful, patient soul with a singular purpose to pull a wayward outfit back from the margins”

More like a puff line than a puff piece.  

Learning about NFL grading systems is actually kinda interesting!

 

[#27TheDominator]

23 minutes ago, freestater said:

Great article and all, but the real test is in 3 weeks. If Joe can draft, he'll be here for a while and we'll all throw roses at his feet. If he's like his predecessors, $100 tips and holistic company synergy wont mean ?

Our usual MO is to declare the draft a monumental win in May and throw roses at his feet for a year or two.  Then get out the pitchforks when the roster continues to suck for years to come.

21 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Hey it all comes down to your belief in your coach. 

If this is the strategy you are going to take then Gase should be extended for the same length as the GM.

Adam Gase is not John Harbaugh.

Gase has a lousy resume and building a team with players to suit a lousy coach is not a good strategy for winning.

If you love Adam Gase you should be all for this way of doing things.  If you do not like Adam Gase you should be a bit horrified.

Mac at least to some extent drafted and signed free agents for Bowles, that is how we got utter scrubs like Darron Lee and Trumaine Johnson.

 

Picking players for the system means the coach doesn't have an excuse.  Not like 2014 when Idzik intentionally gave Rex the invisible man and a safety at corner.  I don't think that Mac drafted for the coach, or we wouldn't have dozens of DTs.  I don't think he signed Johnson for Bowles.  He signed Johnson because they had no corners.  His prior guys aged out or ran their course (Revis, Cromartie, Skrine) fell off and his attempts at mid to low level draft picks (Burris, Clark, Jones) did not provide any roster players.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

36 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Hey it all comes down to your belief in your coach. 

If this is the strategy you are going to take then Gase should be extended for the same length as the GM.

Adam Gase is not John Harbaugh.

Gase has a lousy resume and building a team with players to suit a lousy coach is not a good strategy for winning.

If you love Adam Gase you should be all for this way of doing things.  If you do not like Adam Gase you should be a bit horrified.

Mac at least to some extent drafted and signed free agents for Bowles, that is how we got utter scrubs like Darron Lee and Trumaine Johnson.

 

So your strategy is to draft anybody regardless of system and hope it cashiers the head coach, because you don't like him... yeah, that's a recipe for continuing success. Whether Gase will work out or not is yet to be seen. This will be the first year with a competent GM who appears to be working collaboratively with the HC toward a mutual goal. 

P.S. It's not just about system. The quality of scouting and assessment is critical. If you do poor assessment (Polite; Hackenburg, etc.) the nuances of system don't mean a damn.

[flgreen]

33 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Hey it all comes down to your belief in your coach. 

If this is the strategy you are going to take then Gase should be extended for the same length as the GM.

Adam Gase is not John Harbaugh.

Gase has a lousy resume and building a team with players to suit a lousy coach is not a good strategy for winning.

If you love Adam Gase you should be all for this way of doing things.  If you do not like Adam Gase you should be a bit horrified.

Mac at least to some extent drafted and signed free agents for Bowles, that is how we got utter scrubs like Darron Lee and Trumaine Johnson.

 

Some how I don't think that Douglas is conducting his draft based on what you think of Gase, but it seems to be that he is going to base it on what he thinks of Gase.

Suspect you two have a major difference of opinon.  

[Beerfish]

Just now, flgreen said:

Some how I don't think that Douglas is conducting his draft based on what you think of Gase, but it seems to be that he is going to base it on what he thinks of Gase.

Suspect you two have a major difference of opinon.  

I think you are totally correct on that.

[Beerfish]

1 minute ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

So your strategy is to draft anybody regardless of system and hope it cashiers the head coach, because you don't like him... yeah, that's a recipe for continuing success. Whether Gase will work out or not is yet to be seen. This will be the first year with a competent GM who appears to be working collaboratively with the HC toward a mutual goal. 

You win in the NFL because you have the best players or the best one player if it is a QB.

Let's take a look at John Harbaugh.  The Ravens had Joe Flacco and he was their QB.  They then drafted Lamar Jackson.  Totally a square peg for a round hole, but a super talent.  Harbaugh and his coaches totally changed the way they ran things to accommodate the talent.

If a coach has such a narrow system that it eliminates half the talent in the draft in the long run you are worse off.  Not only that with the short shelf life of coaches these days you are stuck with players from the previous regime and have to start over after 4 years.

As I said if all comes down to your faith in the coach and his system.  Guys like belichick have a proven long term track record so no one is going to question his picks but even the pats have had a lot of misses and been saved by a hof QB.

I simply do not trust Adam Gase as a coach, he has very poor track record as ahead coach and an offensive coach.

 

 

[Jet_Engine1]

3 hours ago, BettyBoop said:

Seems to me this approach works if you're the Ravens and are able to keep the same coach for 10+ years.  If your coach bombs then you either have to restrict your search for a new coach for one with similar schemes or you will need to change over the majority of your roster.  

I would be fine with Harbaugh as my coach, not so much with Gase.

If the GM starts drafting for the "next coach", he won't have a job for long, either. Gase is the current coach. Doing everything he can to make him successful is in everyones best interests. Its up to Gase to make it happen.

[#27TheDominator]

20 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

You win in the NFL because you have the best players or the best one player if it is a QB.

Let's take a look at John Harbaugh.  The Ravens had Joe Flacco and he was their QB.  They then drafted Lamar Jackson.  Totally a square peg for a round hole, but a super talent.  Harbaugh and his coaches totally changed the way they ran things to accommodate the talent.

If a coach has such a narrow system that it eliminates half the talent in the draft in the long run you are worse off.  Not only that with the short shelf life of coaches these days you are stuck with players from the previous regime and have to start over after 4 years.

As I said if all comes down to your faith in the coach and his system.  Guys like belichick have a proven long term track record so no one is going to question his picks but even the pats have had a lot of misses and been saved by a hof QB.

I simply do not trust Adam Gase as a coach, he has very poor track record as ahead coach and an offensive coach.

Nobody asked you to trust Gase.  We are telling you that giving him players to succeed is what a GM should be doing.  What is the ******* difference if you get the 13th best WR instead of the 15th in the guy is not going to flourish in the system?  How is the QB supposed to succeed if the players he is throwing to and those blocking for him do not suit the scheme?   

[Beerfish]

7 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Nobody asked you to trust Gase.  We are telling you that giving him players to succeed is what a GM should be doing.  What is the ******* difference if you get the 13th best WR instead of the 15th in the guy is not going to flourish in the system?  How is the QB supposed to succeed if the players he is throwing to and those blocking for him do not suit the scheme?   

13th vs 15th?  No problemo

10 year starter with 3 pro bowls vs meh starter is a problem.

You give the coach the best players you can and he adapts his system.  (See my example bout John harbaugh and Lamar jackson)

Hey I have no issue with preferring certain types of players, non at all.  You just better be right on almost all of your evals (15th best vs 13th best)  becasue if you are not or have the 'normal bust rate' then over time you have less talent than your competing teams.

It all depends on how narrow a vision a coach and gm have of their system players.

We are going to find out in a little over two weeks.

[#27TheDominator]

5 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

13th vs 15th?  No problemo

10 year starter with 3 pro bowls vs meh starter is a problem.

You give the coach the best players you can and he adapts his system.  (See my example bout John harbaugh and Lamar jackson)

Hey I have no issue with preferring certain types of players, non at all.  You just better be right on almost all of your evals (15th best vs 13th best)  becasue if you are not or have the 'normal bust rate' then over time you have less talent than your competing teams.

It all depends on how narrow a vision a coach and gm have of their system players.

We are going to find out in a little over two weeks.

I would argue that the difference between 3 pro bowls and meh starter is quite often scheme fit.  You mention Lamar Jackson.  You think Harbaugh is something to be loved because he changed systems for this player.  That remains to be seen.  First of all, it required changing all 11 on O to relate to the one player.  Also, the potential drawbacks - durability and playoff success still remain to be seen.  Jackson hasn't missed time, but they have put up a combined 29 points in 2 playoff games.  The kid looks great so far, but overhauling your whole system for one player is not often the way to go and jeopardizes what you have done with the other 52+ guys you have signed or drafted.

I think this argument makes more sense when a new coach is taking over.  What will he do with the talent he has?   Herm dumping two excellent cover corners for the cover who is an example of what I don't like.  When starting from scratch (such as with the Jets talentless roster) you absolutely have to tailor the roster to what you are looking to do.

[JohnnyLV]

2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Hey it all comes down to your belief in your coach. 

If this is the strategy you are going to take then Gase should be extended for the same length as the GM.

Adam Gase is not John Harbaugh.

Gase has a lousy resume and building a team with players to suit a lousy coach is not a good strategy for winning.

If you love Adam Gase you should be all for this way of doing things.  If you do not like Adam Gase you should be a bit horrified.

Mac at least to some extent drafted and signed free agents for Bowles, that is how we got utter scrubs like Darron Lee and Trumaine Johnson.

 

First I think this is one of Manish's best articles, and interestingly I asked Cimini to write this article just a couple days ago so maybe he stole it from that.

I cant understand what you dislike about this approach.  Players succeed in the right system. It makes sense to draft players that fit that system and if you read the grading system it will not cause us to draft a much less player just because he is a better fit. They are put into the big categories and then refined for fit. 

So it will separate the Top 4 OT but probably not push a Cleveland above them

Plus Baltimore was known for the best drafts so we know it works.

Seems like an AWESOME system to me. 

It also points out part of why McCagnan was so bad at drafting

 

[Beerfish]

2 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

First I think this is one of Manish's best articles, and interestingly I asked Cimini to write this article just a couple days ago so maybe he stole it from that.

I cant understand what you dislike about this approach.  Players succeed in the right system. It makes sense to draft players that fit that system and if you read the grading system it will not cause us to draft a much less player just because he is a better fit. They are put into the big categories and then refined for fit. 

So it will separate the Top 4 OT but probably not push a Cleveland above them

Plus Baltimore was known for the best drafts so we know it works.

Seems like an AWESOME system to me. 

It also points out part of why McCagnan was so bad at drafting

 

Like I say if you trust and love your coach and if he is going to be here long term guaranteed then fine.

We went down the road of getting players for a lousy coach with bowles.

We shall know soon enough how the gm is approaching this.

 

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

5 hours ago, KRL said:

Douglas’ grades are based on how a player fits into his coaches’ schemes.

If the entire article said nothing but this, it would have been enough to evaluate JD. 

[Jetsfan80]

4 hours ago, Dcat said:

And it is why saying things like: "as long as we get one of the top 4 OTs in the draft" is so stupid.  If an OT falls to 11 that fits the mold of what Gase and JD want, then ok.  But if not, select their favorite WR there and take OT in rd 2.  One that fits.

True, but this is also why people are advocating trading down.  If the 5th/6th highest "consensus" OT is who we want, we should be able to move down a few spots.  I'm sure Douglas knows enough about the market to determine which OT's will probably be available to him at certain pick slots.

[Marshmello]

Jeremiah in interview said trading down would be ideal. A lot of quality players in round 2 and 3. Also found interesting that he mentions the Jets will be making a jump 2021 with all the cap space they will have.  I think Joe will lay the foundation this year and will be really aggressive next year with Darnold still on his rookie contract.  I read some where that next years draft is loaded at WR as well.

 

 

[JohnnyLV]

53 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Like I say if you trust and love your coach and if he is going to be here long term guaranteed then fine.

We went down the road of getting players for a lousy coach with bowles.

We shall know soon enough how the gm is approaching this.

 

Yes I guess if Gase fails and then we hire a coach that likes man to man blocking and Tampa 2 we are in trouble.

I am not a Gase fan, but he is our head coach so why not give him everything possible to succeed. Maybe with the right fits, we finally see how great his offense can be. Let's face it, the OL and playmakers were not only awful but didnt really fit his system that well.

Seems to me that this grading method will have the most effect on OL (man or zone), followed by CB (also man or zone), then LB then WR

Personally I love the approach. Polian used a similar method from how he has described it on Sirius.

It just makes so much more sense to me. 

Also, one thing that Manish did not mention is that the same system is used for both college and pro players so all ratings are normalized.

[TheMo]

11 hours ago, mrcoops said:

The emphasis on fit for scheme in the evaluations is very interesting. I get the feeling that this will lead to OTs like Josh Jones or Ezra Cleveland being valued more than guys like Andrew Thomas or Becton. 

Gase's history indicates he likes smaller, quicker WRs too - potentially putting guys like Ruggs, Reagor and Hamler higher up the Jets' board.

This idea that Jones is more athletic than Thomas has got to stop. Thomas out performed him on all the jumps the 40 and has a longer wingspan. He will do extremely well in a zone blocking scheme. 

[TheMo]

7 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Like I say if you trust and love your coach and if he is going to be here long term guaranteed then fine.

We went down the road of getting players for a lousy coach with bowles.

We shall know soon enough how the gm is approaching this.

 

I mean you have to balance it. If the best corner at the teams pick will struggle in man coverage but would be great in zone you don't pick him up just cause he's BPA. That's the Mac approach. Alternatively, you don't pick Ezra Cleveland over Andrew Thomas because he might fit the zone scheme a touch better. You want to be in the middle of your utility curve (scheme on one end and talent on the other) maybe shifted a touch towards scheme. If gase is screaming for total scheme fit it sounds like Douglas will not just cave in anyway. Gase should be able to tweak things for the higher levels of talent. If he can't Douglas will can his ass at the end of the year. 

Edit: sorry missed that last sentence. Agreed I am hoping he is how I described it above. We'll know soon enough like you said. 

[Charlie Brown]

22 hours ago, Dcat said:

And it is why saying things like: "as long as we get one of the top 4 OTs in the draft" is so stupid.  If an OT falls to 11 that fits the mold of what Gase and JD want, then ok.  But if not, select their favorite WR there and take OT in rd 2.  One that fits.

Thank you!

This is the key!! 
 

People are so quick to bash Manish that they don’t understand that this is a radically different approach to scouting and drafting players that the Jets want for over a decade.   

A very informative piece in describing the key differences between MacCagnan and Joe Douglas, so big thanks @KRL ........

[Ohio State NY Jets fan]

21 hours ago, jgb said:

He says something positive—we love him!

He says something negative—what a troll!

I think this one stands out because it's more informative vs his normal dose of opinion, rarely positive and mostly negative...  (click bait)

I have zero interest in the "journalists" opinion, give me the facts and let me decide, this one comes close to doing just that, (mostly from the scout but still interesting) second the big thanks @KRL ........

 

 

[jgb]

49 minutes ago, Ohio State NY Jets fan said:

I think this one stands out because it's more informative vs his normal dose of opinion, rarely positive and mostly negative...  (click bait)

I have zero interest in the "journalists" opinion, give me the facts and let me decide, this one comes close to doing just that, (mostly from the scout but still interesting) second the big thanks @KRL ........

 

 

That's fair. Just making fun of the kill the messenger approach taken when it comes to negative opinion in general about the team.

[Ohio State NY Jets fan]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

That's fair. Just making fun of the kill the messenger approach taken when it comes to negative opinion in general about the team.

All good - we all need some fun and laughter these days, now the rest of the world knows what it's like to be a Jets fan 

[TNJet]

On 4/7/2020 at 9:00 AM, Dcat said:

And it is why saying things like: "as long as we get one of the top 4 OTs in the draft" is so stupid.  If an OT falls to 11 that fits the mold of what Gase and JD want, then ok.  But if not, select their favorite WR there and take OT in rd 2.  One that fits.

But maybe Lamb nor Jeudy fit their "scheme" either. Pick Wills.

[Dcat]

1 hour ago, TNJet said:

But maybe Lamb nor Jeudy fit their "scheme" either. Pick Wills.

Lamb a great fit for Darnold and Jeudy is the best WR in the draft in every respect.  Ruggs would be #1 in most other years.  One of them will have a good fit and they may all be there at 11.   

With OT, you get whichever one of the "four" is left (assuming that one falls).  So if you adhere to the "gotta have one of the top 4" perspective, then you are literally willing to take the leftover of them.  Now if that leftover does fit Gase/JD goals for the position, then fine.  If not, I hope they don't draft him just because he's still there and forego a potential generational talent for Sam at WR.  

[TNJet]

2 minutes ago, Dcat said:

Lamb a great fit for Darnold and Jeudy is the best WR in the draft in every respect.  Ruggs would be #1 in most other years.  One of them will have a good fit and they may all be there at 11.   

With OT, you get whichever one of the "four" is left (assuming that one falls).  So if you adhere to the "gotta have one of the top 4" perspective, then you are literally willing to take the leftover of them.  Now if that leftover does fit Gase/JD goals for the position, then fine.  If not, I hope they don't draft him just because he's still there and forego a potential generational talent for Sam at WR.  

We won't draft a WR in the first round. With the signing of Perriman and having 2 top TEs for Sam already in Griffin and Herndon its not near in dire straits like the blindside of the best QB we've had since 2002.

[Dcat]

4 minutes ago, TNJet said:

We won't draft a WR in the first round. With the signing of Perriman and having 2 top TEs for Sam already in Griffin and Herndon its not near in dire straits like the blindside of the best QB we've had since 2002.

yeah...I'm sure JD is taking a super-rigid stance just like that.  Great strategy.   

[JohnnyLV]

18 minutes ago, TNJet said:

We won't draft a WR in the first round. With the signing of Perriman and having 2 top TEs for Sam already in Griffin and Herndon its not near in dire straits like the blindside of the best QB we've had since 2002.

Seriously? Not only could I see us taking WR in the first round it wouldnt shock me all that much if we picked receiver 3 times in the first 4 picks

[TNJet]

7 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Seriously? Not only could I see us taking WR in the first round it wouldnt shock me all that much if we picked receiver 3 times in the first 4 picks

I hope not.

[Mackman55]

24 minutes ago, TNJet said:

We won't draft a WR in the first round. With the signing of Perriman and having 2 top TEs for Sam already in Griffin and Herndon its not near in dire straits like the blindside of the best QB we've had since 2002.

I would suggest you reflect on JD's repeated comments about the Jets acquiring explosive players. I would not at all be surprised to see JD take 2-3 receivers and yes maybe even one in the 1st round.

[TNJet]

22 minutes ago, Dcat said:

yeah...I'm sure JD is taking a super-rigid stance just like that.  Great strategy.   

Hey I'll support whoever we draft as long as it isn't defense. I am not excited about Lamb or Jeudy at 11. I'd rather tske the best T available at 11, or if we have to trade down and get T Josh Jones or even WR Laviska Shenault of Colorado and pick up a few extra picks.

[LIJetsFan]

4 hours ago, johnnysd said:

Seriously? Not only could I see us taking WR in the first round it wouldnt shock me all that much if we picked receiver 3 times in the first 4 picks

I was going to down-vote you here but then I figured, sarcasm, right?