Darnold and JD

[jgb]

42 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

We may never know. The Eagles had moved Berry into a role over JD right before he left for the Jets (and Berry is now in CLE). Roseman seemed to be shaking things up. 

I'm just happy we hired someone whose current employer tried to keep for once. We hired Macc from the Texans parking lot carrying a cardboard box to his car.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

48 minutes ago, jgb said:

Maybe, I don't know. Still think that's fool's gold. How many times has a QB performed poorly due to "bad situation" and suddenly become a stud later? Stud QB's elevate those around them.

I think you're confusing yourself with Joe Douglas. I'm guessing he has a different take on the situation. And the QB.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

I think you're confusing yourself with Joe Douglas. I'm guessing he has a different take on the situation. And the QB.

Jets fans have outperformed Jets GMs for years in player evaluation. Let's see a JD draft before crowning him the next Ozzie Newsome, shall we?

[Snook]

14 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

In the list of what is wrong with the New York Jets Sam Darnold is about #842

I would like to see  DWC type of post for the other 841. 

[14 in Green]

26 minutes ago, jgb said:

Still have hope for Darnold. He's had a terrible supporting cast. But as a now old Jets fan, not going to fall for anything that isn't proven. Any Darnold has achieved nothing thus far.

I’ve been saying the exact same thing, and probably was the first here to say it. I have the rep here as the biggest Darnold doubter on the board.

A lot of people here don’t want to admit they are now having their own doubts about him, but you can tell a lot of them are beginning to.

Instead of the claims that he’ll be a top 3 QB, throw 35 TDs with 8 ints and 4500 yds bs, you now here them say he could be this or that if we surround him with blah blah blah.

No matter how you twist it or turn it, even his most ardent supporters have to admit he hasn’t been what they expected. If they don’t they’re lying to themselves.

[jgb]

13 minutes ago, choon328 said:

Yes sorry lol

Damn you clearly know your stuff, need to be careful debating you.  

[Grandy]

42 minutes ago, jgb said:

It's possible both the OL and Darnold are not good. Every QB who played behind a bad OL isn't automatically an elite QB in in disguise. Luke Falk played behind same OL. Maybe he's a stud we need to give him a better supporting cast!

I don't understand those who are not skeptical of Darnold. Been a Jets fan too long to count chickens before the eggs hatch. 

Verify then trust when it comes to this team.

Even though overall he's been meh, anytime he's been given not even good but just adequate support he's played at a high level. 

[Snook]

12 minutes ago, jgb said:

Uh huh. 

Lol. Sorry, I'm a man of few words. 

[FidelioJet]

13 minutes ago, jgb said:

My point is it's nearly (maybe totally) unprecendented for a Gm to get canned after finding the consensus QB of the future.

Not an indictment of Darnold (despite the emotional reaction of fanboys) but it's a pretty unique situation.

Yet GMs get canned because teams don't perform, and the QB accounts for about 30% of the team's success or failure.

I agree.  But Mac was an unprecedented bad GM.  It’s also almost unprecedented for a GM who just drafted said QB, has the worst OL in the league and then drafts his 4th interior defensive player in 5 years.

I get it and I think the plan was to keep Mac - but Gase stabbed him in the back...

I think we’ll likely see Darnold get a 3rd HC before he’s done too.  Which is probably unprecedented too.

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

I’ve been saying the exact same thing, and probably was the first here to say it. I have the rep here as the biggest Darnold doubter on the board.

A lot of people here don’t want to admit they are now having their own doubts about him, but you can tell a lot of them are beginning to.

Instead of the claims that he’ll be a top 3 QB, throw 35 TDs with 8 ints and 4500 yds bs, you now here them say he could be this or that if we surround him with blah blah blah.

No matter how you twist it or turn it, even his most ardent supporters have to admit he hasn’t been what they expected. If they don’t they’re lying to themselves.

I challenge you to a knife fight. There can only be one. 

[14 in Green]

38 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

It’s a good question, though. You’re a GM, team is static, who would you rather have as your QB for the next five years: Darnold or Murray? 

Look at their rookie years. Both had little to no talent around them.

The answer is easy, it’s just nobody here wants to answer it.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

I agree.  But Mac was an unprecedented bad GM.  It’s also almost unprecedented for a GM who just drafted said QB, has the worst OL in the league and then drafts his 4th interior defensive player in 5 years.

I get it and I think the plan was to keep Mac - but Gase stabbed him in the back...

I think we’ll likely see Darnold get a 3rd HC before he’s done too.  Which is probably unprecedented too.

Williams I hope

[14 in Green]

54 minutes ago, Snook said:

The offence was world's better with Sam than Trevor or Luke.(I know, not saying much)

LOL

Trevor played what? 5 minutes?

Luke was a practice squad guy Gase didn’t game plan for. Hell he didn’t even give him first team reps, he was giving them to Darnold during the weeks he was recuperating from his kissing disease.

[section314]

3 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

I’ve been saying the exact same thing, and probably was the first here to say it. I have the rep here as the biggest Darnold doubter on the board.

A lot of people here don’t want to admit they are now having their own doubts about him, but you can tell a lot of them are beginning to.

Instead of the claims that he’ll be a top 3 QB, throw 35 TDs with 8 ints and 4500 yds bs, you now here them say he could be this or that if we surround him with blah blah blah.

No matter how you twist it or turn it, even his most ardent supporters have to admit he hasn’t been what they expected. If they don’t they’re lying to themselves.

I would fall into that circle, and that's one of the things I've grown to admire about you . As big a fan as you are, you have gotten to the stage where you are really starting to look at things objectively. I am kinda getting there, and it's a tough thing to do. But, at some point, you have to do it.

[Mogglez]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

Yeah he would be first. But his career so far has been "meh." Can't think of a QB who went from "meh" to elite. Elite QBs elevate those around them. Darnold hasn't.

Matthew Stafford would be a nice comp.

[section314]

6 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I agree.  But Mac was an unprecedented bad GM.  It’s also almost unprecedented for a GM who just drafted said QB, has the worst OL in the league and then drafts his 4th interior defensive player in 5 years.

I get it and I think the plan was to keep Mac - but Gase stabbed him in the back...

I think we’ll likely see Darnold get a 3rd HC before he’s done too.  Which is probably unprecedented too.

Now we know why kids in college transfer.?

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Mogglez said:

Matthew Stafford would be a nice comp.

Stafford had a lackluster year 1. Was hurt year 2. Threw 5,000 yards year 3. Of Darnold does that I’m on board. 

[Jets723]

7 minutes ago, section314 said:

I would fall into that circle, and that's one of the things I've grown to admire about you . As big a fan as you are, you have gotten to the stage where you are really starting to look at things objectively. I am kinda getting there, and it's a tough thing to do. But, at some point, you have to do it.

I think we are objective.  Nobody has said Sam has been great.  He had things he needs to fix and prove.  However it isn’t an excuse to say he hasn’t had really any support.  Doesn’t matter how talented you are if you have really no OL and no big weapons it’s gonna be tough to be consistent 

[JohnnyLV]

52 minutes ago, jgb said:

Yeah he would be first. But his career so far has been "meh." Can't think of a QB who went from "meh" to elite. Elite QBs elevate those around them. Darnold hasn't.

Is that true though? Did you see the offense without him? I mean seriously the offense with Darnold was dramatically better. Yes, we had  the worst offense in football but much of that are the games without Darnold. Without Darnold, 165 yards/game With Darnold 298 yards/game.

Reality is that our OL and WR corps were really just THAT bad

 

[jgb]

5 minutes ago, Jets723 said:

I think we are objective.  Nobody has said Dam has been great.  He had things he needs to fix and prove.  However it isn’t an excuse to say he hasn’t had really any support.  Doesn’t matter how talented you are if you have really no OL and no big weapons it’s gonna be tough to be consistent 

Many have said he's already best QB in AFC-E or top 10 in NFl. Which is very cringy.

[jgb]

8 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Is that true though? Did you see the offense without him? I mean seriously the offense with Darnold was dramatically better. Yes, we had  the worst offense in football but much of that are the games without Darnold. Without Darnold, 165 yards/game With Darnold 298 yards/game.

Reality is that our OL and WR corps were really just THAT bad

 

I saw that Luke Falk sucks. Haven't seen that Darnold is great. If you want to argue Luke Falk is a good comparitor for Darnold, be my guest, but doubt Darnold would welcome your defense.

[Chrebetfan80]

I understand why some fans are very hard on Darnold.  I get it, 3rd overall pick, traded a lot of capital to get him, and he's been up and down.  We want instant gratification.  The type we see with Jackson, Mahommes, Watson, but there are a few differences here that make up for that gap.  One being Darnold plays on by far the worst team of any of the young quarterbacks, and has similarly been helped out the least by his front office (present front office not included).. He also suffered having possibly the worst head coaches of any of those teams (Book isnt out on Gase yet).

 

But yet Darnold despite all the adversity has performed in ways fans don't notice, mostly because it isn't in the form of gaudy stats.  His footwork as the season went on last year got better, his decision making saw growth (we saw him throw the ball away and live to fight another day). There was bad for sure, but there was good too (recognizing man defense and safety alignment and checking to the 9 to robbie against dallas).

You want some sneaky stats? Second half of the season (coincidentally when Darnold seems to play his best football) Sam Darnold had a higher rating than both Brady and Rodgers, a better TD/INT ratio than both Mahommes and Watson, and more total touchdowns than Mahommes and Russel Wilson.  Surprising?  You know whats even more surprising... he did all of that with the highest pressure rating of any QB in the league. 

So yes... do I want to see more growth? Sure absolutely, I've trained QB's and receivers for a while and have worked with some great people, I consistently look for these things when I watch Sam play.  Does he have work to do? Sure, but the kid hasn't played much QB in his life and he's only 22, He's got time.   What should encourage doubters is these under the radar stats where he seems to elevate his play in the second half of the season, when the chips are down the most.  Thats an intangible you cant teach. 

[Jets723]

Just now, Chrebetfan80 said:

I understand why some fans are very hard on Darnold.  I get it, 3rd overall pick, traded a lot of capital to get him, and he's been up and down.  We want instant gratification.  The type we see with Jackson, Mahommes, Watson, but there are a few differences here that make up for that gap.  One being Darnold plays on by far the worst team of any of the young quarterbacks, and has similarly been helped out the least by his front office (present front office not included).. He also suffered having possibly the worst head coaches of any of those teams (Book isnt out on Gase yet).

 

But yet Darnold despite all the adversity has performed in ways fans don't notice, mostly because it isn't in the form of gaudy stats.  His footwork as the season went on last year got better, his decision making saw growth (we saw him throw the ball away and live to fight another day). There was bad for sure, but there was good too (recognizing man defense and safety alignment and checking to the 9 to robbie against dallas).

You want some sneaky stats? Second half of the season (coincidentally when Darnold seems to play his best football) Sam Darnold had a higher rating than both Brady and Rodgers, a better TD/INT ratio than both Mahommes and Watson, and more total touchdowns than Mahommes and Russel Wilson.  Surprising?  You know whats even more surprising... he did all of that with the highest pressure rating of any QB in the league. 

So yes... do I want to see more growth? Sure absolutely, I've trained QB's and receivers for a while and have worked with some great people, I consistently look for these things when I watch Sam play.  Does he have work to do? Sure, but the kid hasn't played much QB in his life and he's only 22, He's got time.   What should encourage doubters is these under the radar stats where he seems to elevate his play in the second half of the season, when the chips are down the most.  Thats an intangible you cant teach. 

Great Post!!!

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

I understand why some fans are very hard on Darnold.  I get it, 3rd overall pick, traded a lot of capital to get him, and he's been up and down.  We want instant gratification.  The type we see with Jackson, Mahommes, Watson, but there are a few differences here that make up for that gap.  One being Darnold plays on by far the worst team of any of the young quarterbacks, and has similarly been helped out the least by his front office (present front office not included).. He also suffered having possibly the worst head coaches of any of those teams (Book isnt out on Gase yet).

 

But yet Darnold despite all the adversity has performed in ways fans don't notice, mostly because it isn't in the form of gaudy stats.  His footwork as the season went on last year got better, his decision making saw growth (we saw him throw the ball away and live to fight another day). There was bad for sure, but there was good too (recognizing man defense and safety alignment and checking to the 9 to robbie against dallas).

You want some sneaky stats? Second half of the season (coincidentally when Darnold seems to play his best football) Sam Darnold had a higher rating than both Brady and Rodgers, a better TD/INT ratio than both Mahommes and Watson, and more total touchdowns than Mahommes and Russel Wilson.  Surprising?  You know whats even more surprising... he did all of that with the highest pressure rating of any QB in the league. 

So yes... do I want to see more growth? Sure absolutely, I've trained QB's and receivers for a while and have worked with some great people, I consistently look for these things when I watch Sam play.  Does he have work to do? Sure, but the kid hasn't played much QB in his life and he's only 22, He's got time.   What should encourage doubters is these under the radar stats where he seems to elevate his play in the second half of the season, when the chips are down the most.  Thats an intangible you cant teach. 

That's where everyone should stop reading. Jets fans? Instant gratification? What are you, 12? Buddah waited less time to achieve nirvana meditating under his tree than Jets fans for another championship.

[Chrebetfan80]

Just now, jgb said:

That's where everyone should stop reading. Jets fans? Instant gratification? What are you, 12?

It's more of a reflection of where we are at as a society now. Also due in large part to the prolonged lack of success of the franchise, as a fan base people are growing more impatient.  Couple that with the recent success of young quarterbacks are having right away, yes I would say we are looking for more instant gratification from a top 5 selected quarterback.  

a little older than 12 though. 

[jgb]

Just now, Chrebetfan80 said:

It's more of a reflection of where we are at as a society now. Also due in large part to the prolonged lack of success of the franchise, as a fan base people are growing more impatient.  Couple that with the recent success of young quarterbacks are having right away, yes I would say we are looking for more instant gratification from a top 5 selected quarterback.  

a little older than 12 though. 

Yeah well Jets fans are the most patient people on earth. Do you know what you call impatient Jets fans? Cowboys fans.

[Mogglez]

24 minutes ago, jgb said:

Stafford had a lackluster year 1. Was hurt year 2. Threw 5,000 yards year 3. Of Darnold does that I’m on board. 

Yeah, overall, I think the comparison is a good one because after 2 years you really didn't know what you had with Stafford but you did see enough glimpses where you thought that he could be something. I think that most people are in the same boat with Darnold.  You could make the argument that Sam has shown more than Matt did at this point, but it's all moot anyway.  Stafford stepped up and we can only hope Sam does the same.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

39 minutes ago, jgb said:

Jets fans have outperformed Jets GMs for years in player evaluation. Let's see a JD draft before crowning him the next Ozzie Newsome, shall we?

I thought this thread was about how Darnold could be dumped because he hasn't "lifted" the team. Make up your mind.

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Yeah, overall, I think the comparison is a good one because after 2 years you really didn't know what you had with Stafford but you did see enough glimpses where you thought that he could be something.  You could make the argument that Sam has shown more than Matt did at this point, but is all moot anyway.  Stafford stepped up and we can only hope Sam does the same.

Obviously I hope. But we know what happens if he does't--another off season with half the fan base arguing skeptism and the other half blaming the supporting cast.

Wish we could make a blood pact now that we will attribute Sam's performance to Sam for the first time in his career this season.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

I thought this thread was about how Darnold could be dumped because he hasn't "lifted" the team. Make up your mind.

Read the original post again. PM me if you need clarification.

[derp]

I think in most of those other cases it was pretty clear the QB was in over his head and easy to cut ties with. Not the same with Darnold. Maccagnan fell into a decent QB prospect and absolutely failed at building the rest of the team.

Do think it’s possible a backup QB gets drafted earlier than fans want. Last year maybe the Jets have a shot at the playoffs if the backup is capable of winning games. Darnold has missed three games each of his first two seasons. Developmental quarterbacks have value. And it’s a really easy situation to sell that “Sam is unquestionably our starter, we need a competent backup and it’s nice to have a developmental guy we can potentially flip into an asset.” And that’s true. And if it’s somebody promising and he plays well when Darnold is hurt that increases his value, either internally or externally. Jalen Hurts is such an easy sell for that IMO.

[jgb]

14 minutes ago, derp said:

I think in most of those other cases it was pretty clear the QB was in over his head and easy to cut ties with. Not the same with Darnold. Maccagnan fell into a decent QB prospect and absolutely failed at building the rest of the team.

Do think it’s possible a backup QB gets drafted earlier than fans want. Last year maybe the Jets have a shot at the playoffs if the backup is capable of winning games. Darnold has missed three games each of his first two seasons. Developmental quarterbacks have value. And it’s a really easy situation to sell that “Sam is unquestionably our starter, we need a competent backup and it’s nice to have a developmental guy we can potentially flip into an asset.” And that’s true. And if it’s somebody promising and he plays well when Darnold is hurt that increases his value, either internally or externally. Jalen Hurts is such an easy sell for that IMO.

Need a competent backup, maybe 2. A vet and a developmental guy.

[Ken Schroy]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

Yeah he would be first. But his career so far has been "meh." Can't think of a QB who went from "meh" to elite. Elite QBs elevate those around them. Darnold hasn't.

Sams stats last year are not great, thats true. But he got decent stats with no TE's, OL protection, consistent running game, and no #1 WR. I think the best is yet to come from him, and he DID elevate the talent around him. For example, he threw 6 TD's to 2 TE's you never heard of before this year.

[choon328]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

Darnold likely still gets two more years. Gase will be the fall guy next year if he doesn't take the leap. I actually want that so Williams becomes HC. Williams will leave next year for HC somewhere if not here.

Williams will never get a HC job again after Bountygate.  No owner is going to make him the face of the franchise.  And honestly he's a failed HC. 22-34 over 3 1/2 seasons.  Some guys are just better Coordinators. 

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, choon328 said:

Williams will never get a HC job again after Bountygate.  No owner is going to make him the face of the franchise.  And honestly he's a failed HC. 22-34 over 3 1/2 seasons.  Some guys are just better Coordinators. 

Disagree. NFL and America loves a comeback story. If Jets have a strong D next year, I think he gets a final shot. Obv. hope you are right because don't want to lose him.