One Big Fat Jamal Adams Thread, It's All The Same Discussion, Anyway (MERGED ELEVENTY-BILLION)

[ZachEY]

2 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

He also  was part of an equal umber of terrible plays or plays that hurt us because our SS was on the line poaching.

This is what so many fail to acknowledge.  How many plays are made against our secondary when Jamal Adams is playing LB?  It doesn't look like Jamal's fault because he's not near the play, but a traditional safety would have been.  I'm not even sure the juice is worth the squeeze.

[More Cowbell]

I have never seen a fan base so desperate  to get rid of the besr player on the team or one that has the desire to constantly remind us how good he is. 

Enough!!!!

[Sperm Edwards]

If his value is actually so much higher than a 1st and a 3rd, why isn’t there a long line of teams offering a pair of 1s (if not more)? Plus why not at least as long of a list before the trade deadline last year, when suitors would also get an additional, cheap half-season of him, while surrendering merely "crap shoot" picks including as far removed as 2 seasons later? 

Because he’s not worth it. Not unless someone is totally infatuated. Someone like Jones who’s built some paper tigers but never built a winner - 3 cumulative playoff wins - since Johnson’s stacked roster expired 20+ years ago.

Adams is a really good player, his head is always in the game, and if traded I think he’d be at worst solid anywhere he goes. That said, because of the lack of better Jets players brought in from past drafts and signings, particularly at more valuable positions, he’s vastly overrated here. The idea that he’s somehow underrated, and/or has magic powers that make everyone else better in ways that the benighted fans just don’t understand, is rich. I also suspect at least half the locker room rolls their eyes when he talks, which is all the time; and when it’s from a nonstop self-promoter, that gets worse not better over time.

The D had an easy schedule, and few are willing to acknowledge it when judging Adams (or Gregg Williams for that matter). 

 

[#27TheDominator]

2 hours ago, jgb said:

Trade Jamal Argument: "Trade him because the Jets record has been bad with him in the lineup (no impact)."

All you have to do to retort is ask this follow-up question: "How do you feel about Darnold?

The Likely Response: "Darnold is a stud held back by his poor team."

Then you smile and say, "Oh, I see." And walk away.

 

You think that is what Sperm, Shane and I say when confronted with the Darnold question?  Can you point out who you are basing this mythical straw person?  I don't think it is 80, so who?

[jgb]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

You think that is what Sperm, Shane and I say when confronted with the Darnold question?  Can you point out who you are basing this mythical straw person?  I don't think it is 80, so who?

Not going to curate posts for you. They are here in abundance. I've seen them and responded to many of them.

[FidelioJet]

I think most Jet fans understand he’s a very good player and impactful on game day.  Some spiteful don’t, but for the vast majority get it.  He’s a very good player, one I would love to have on my team.

It’s not that people don’t want him it’s that the offense is soooo deplete of talent, literally the worst in the league...And the defense, while not great can hold its own and be competitive.  

Due to the full on mismanagement from the prior administration the Jets have to look to use pretty much their only defensive asset capable of being traded to upgrade the offense.

Now, if he trades Adams and goes on to draft multiple defensive players high in the draft - then it would be a horrific mistake and we’ll know what we have in JD.

With all of that said, he’s not going anywhere.

[Sperm Edwards]

We shouldn’t give him away, but given the alleged offer already turned down, I don’t see how that’s possible. An offer floor of 1st + 3rd is enough, but if we can get more I’m certainly for it.

With a legit offer to maybe upgrade at least 3* other positions, at the expense of downgrading one SS, we should be building around the QB position (as we should have been since the year before he was drafted, since it was known that was the route the team was going since they took Adams over either probowl QB).

The worst crime that could happen is not losing Adams. It’s letting Darnold continue to hide behind weak surrounding-cast excuses en route to a $35-40MM/yr contract extension with $100-120MM fully guaranteed, that he (so far) doesn’t nearly deserve, based on potential and optimism rather than actual/consistent production.

Stack the offense around him and see what he’s got. I think he can be plenty good, even if he’s not going to be a sub-10 turnover QB, if his upside more than makes up for that. But he has to show it, not merely show “flashes” while his peers are earning deserved individual honors as well as playoff appearances/wins. If Darnold succeeds with this improved surrounding cast, aided by locking into a couple cheap, high picks in a deeper draft, this is still not a problem. And if he fails, then the offense is set up for his successor instead of sending another into a talent-barren group. 

 

*2020 1st rounder, 2020 3rd rounder, and the extra cap $ to upgrade another position. Not to mention the compounded $, in the form of a veteran we don’t need to sign, if that 3rd rounder becomes a solid starting G/RT/CB/etc. 

[#27TheDominator]

11 minutes ago, jgb said:

Not going to curate posts for you. They are here in abundance. I've seen them and responded to many of them.

Dude, I've been in the club for years and I don't know any members that are anointing Darnold as the unquestioned savior.

[AFerg726]

I don't think that we should be trading our best player. The picks that we will get in return for him will not result in a better player, at best, we will get a worse player at a more important position. I'd rather build around our few good players than sell them off and add more uncertainty.

[CanadienJetsFan]

Yes, he’s a very good player.

But he’s a bellyacher. That’s not what  you want from one of your team’s top players. you don’t mind paying him as a top player, but you expect him to NOT hang out any dirty laundry every time something goes awry.
Management owes him nothing. Why? Well, they still have two years left on his current cell contract. The year after that, they could franchise tag him. So you can get three good years at 9-10 million/ year out of him. After that you see. If the team has turned the corner and actually become a contender, well I guarantee you that it won’t be only because of Adams.

 

If some team out there will actually give a first and third round pick for the kid, I wouldn’t hold it against JD for pulling the trigger.

 

[jgb]

29 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Dude, I've been in the club for years and I don't know any members that are anointing Darnold as the unquestioned savior.

The word I used was "stud," not "savior." Who's creating strawmen?

[slats]

1 hour ago, The Crusher said:

I’m ok with this for the most part , the challenge I have is we’ve made a much larger investment in defense over the years and not much of one on offense. Brick and Mangold standout as the last two number one picks on the O line. Our defensive line was latterly cluttered with them. Doesn’t matter how good Sam is or isn’t, we need to invest into the offense  period. No difference if Darnold is a place holder or the solution, not going to be able to figure that out until we get some help on offense. 

And Santana Moss was their last first round WR. 

This is basically it, though. The Jets need to build an offense. They not only need to start coming to some conclusions about Darnold this year, they need to move their offense into this millennium. As you said, if it's not gonna be Sam then let's at least have a decent foundation in place for the next guy up. Can't keep putting QBs thru this red-headed step-child that has been the Jets' offense for a couple decades now. The Jets had the first 4000 yard passer in pro football history and haven't been able to produce another in an era where QBs like Matt Stafford can hit 5000. 

A guy like Jamal Adams is a luxury on a team like this. Having the best/highest-paid player at one of the game's lowest-valued positions (only TE and RB have lower franchise tag values) is not the way to build a championship roster. Flipping him for Dallas' #17+ would be terrific. In this draft, that would probably mean a first round WR (second highest franchise tag value behind QBs), and a much better allocation of resources. And maybe a chance for Gase and Darnold to get this offense moving. 

[ECURB]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

When do we get to see this on display? Was it at LSU where his “transformed” defense never finished higher than third in the conference? Perhaps in high school? Which of his 61 tackles was the most transformative?

Haters gonna hate

[jgb]

1 hour ago, The Crusher said:

I’m ok with this for the most part , the challenge I have is we’ve made a much larger investment in defense over the years and not much of one on offense. Brick and Mangold standout as the last two number one picks on the O line. Our defensive line was latterly cluttered with them. Doesn’t matter how good Sam is or isn’t, we need to invest into the offense  period. No difference if Darnold is a place holder or the solution, not going to be able to figure that out until we get some help on offense. 

No argument Jets have heavily favored the defense in recent years. Nevertheless, I'm not sure trading our best defensive player is the "right" way to correct 10 years of mistakes. I mean obviously there is a price that anyone would pay. Three first rounders and I'd trade him. But a mid-first rounder and a mid-round pick? Downside of those picks busting is too great to unload an all pro IMHO.

[freestater]

There are a lot of threads about Jamal Adams. 

[choon328]

2 hours ago, jgb said:

Because we had a bad record with him in the starting lineup, therefore he was not be an impact player. But Darnold is an elite-QB-in-disguise and only his bad supporting cast is holding him back from winning more games. ?

It's the cognitive dissonance that allows the same argument to convince some that Jamal needs to be traded but that Darnold just needs supporting talent to blossom. 

Do I have to explain the reason why QBs are more important than Safeties in today's NFL? When is the last time a Safety carried a WINNING team on his back? You support a young QB and surround him with talent to help develop him into a great QB. The #1 reason why teams are bad in the NFL is bc of bad QB play so you have to try to mitigate that as much as possible.  Having a bad Safety won't tank your season. 

[nycdan]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

No argument Jets have heavily favored the defense in recent years. Nevertheless, I'm not sure trading our best defensive player is the "right" way to correct 10 years of mistakes. I mean obviously there is a price that anyone would pay. Three first rounders and I'd trade him. But a mid-first rounder and a mid-round pick? Downside of those picks busting is too great the unload an all pro IMHO.

Last sentence is a good point.  How about we see JD run one draft and see how his picks turn out before we turn our one All-Pro into more draft picks.  If this was Macc drafting, you would need at least two 1st rounders to have a chance of replacing even half his value to the team.

[The Crusher]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

No argument Jets have heavily favored the defense in recent years. Nevertheless, I'm not sure trading our best defensive player is the "right" way to correct 10 years of mistakes. I mean obviously there is a price that anyone would pay. Three first rounders and I'd trade him. But a mid-first rounder and a mid-round pick? Downside of those picks busting is too great the unload an all pro IMHO.

That's certainly a reasonable consideration but I would say that's exactly what we need to do for wasting so many picks on defense over the years. Need to get a couple back.  

[jgb]

6 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

That's certainly a reasonable consideration but I would say that's exactly what we need to do for wasting so many picks on defense over the years. Need to get a couple back.  

So we spent how many first rounders on defense and as soon as we finally get an All Pro for our efforts, we dump him. How many offensive first rounders do you think we reasonable need to spend to find an All Pro?

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Last sentence is a good point.  How about we see JD run one draft and see how his picks turn out before we turn our one All-Pro into more draft picks.  If this was Macc drafting, you would need at least two 1st rounders to have a chance of replacing even half his value to the team.

Thank you, this is my point. I'd like to confirm JD knows what he's doing with the 8 picks he has this year before investing in more lottery tickets.

I'm fine with trading Jamal for an equal value in established players, however.

[The Crusher]

9 minutes ago, slats said:

And Santana Moss was their last first round WR. 

This is basically it, though. The Jets need to build an offense. They not only need to start coming to some conclusions about Darnold this year, they need to move their offense into this millennium. As you said, if it's not gonna be Sam then let's at least have a decent foundation in place for the next guy up. Can't keep putting QBs thru this red-headed step-child that has been the Jets' offense for a couple decades now. The Jets had the first 4000 yard passer in pro football history and haven't been able to produce another in an era where QBs like Matt Stafford can hit 5000. 

A guy like Jamal Adams is a luxury on a team like this. Having the best/highest-paid player at one of the game's lowest-valued positions (only TE and RB have lower franchise tag values) is not the way to build a championship roster. Flipping him for Dallas' #17+ would be terrific. In this draft, that would probably mean a first round WR (second highest franchise tag value behind QBs), and a much better allocation of resources. And maybe a chance for Gase and Darnold to get this offense moving. 

Santana Moss? Holy crap. hahaha.  That's back in the Jet-skins day!  

[choon328]

3 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Last sentence is a good point.  How about we see JD run one draft and see how his picks turn out before we turn our one All-Pro into more draft picks.  If this was Macc drafting, you would need at least two 1st rounders to have a chance of replacing even half his value to the team.

I'm sure 1 year of seeing his draft picks will be enough time to determine if he's good at it or not. 

[jgb]

5 minutes ago, choon328 said:

Do I have to explain the reason why QBs are more important than Safeties in today's NFL? When is the last time a Safety carried a WINNING team on his back? You support a young QB and surround him with talent to help develop him into a great QB. The #1 reason why teams are bad in the NFL is bc of bad QB play so you have to try to mitigate that as much as possible.  Having a bad Safety won't tank your season. 

You're making my point. How can a safety be maligned for the Jets poor record the last two years while the QB gets a pass--since everyone agrees a QB has a heckuva lot more impact that a S?

[nycdan]

1 minute ago, choon328 said:

I'm sure 1 year of seeing his draft picks will be enough time to determine if he's good at it or not. 

It may be enough time to determine if he's 'not'.  Macc had me convinced after his first one:

• 1.6:  Leonard Williams  —  Likely to be let go as UFA after 2019
• 2.37:  Devin Smith —  Out of NFL after 2016
• 3.82:  Lorenzo Mauldin  — Out of NFL after 2016
• 4.103:  Bryce Petty  —  Out of NFL after 2017
• 5.152:  G Jarvis Harrison  —  Out of NFL after 2015
• 7.223:  NT Deon Simon  —  Out of NFL after 2016

[The Crusher]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

So we spend how many first rounders on defense and as soon as we finally get an All Pro for our efforts, we dump him. How many offensive first rounders do you think we reasonable need to spend to find an All Pro?

Not dumping him, I value him too much for that. But, give me a 1st and 3rd for him to get a shot at a couple players that can result in more points? I'm there dude! You don't beat really good teams in the NFL without scoring points.  Jamaal doesn't help score points, he is an awesome guy to watch play with his effort and enthusiasm, but at the end of the day it really doesn't effect the W column. Scoring points will. 

[peebag]

2 hours ago, jgb said:

Because we had a bad record with him in the starting lineup, therefore he was not be an impact player. But Darnold is an elite-QB-in-disguise and only his bad supporting cast is holding him back from winning more games. ?

It's the cognitive dissonance that allows the same argument to convince some that Jamal needs to be traded but that Darnold just needs supporting talent to blossom. 

Which qb would have had better numbers than Sam with the same flotsam that we marched out there last year?

[jgb]

1 minute ago, nycdan said:

It may be enough time to determine if he's 'not'.  Macc had me convinced after his first one:

• 1.6:  Leonard Williams  —  Likely to be let go as UFA after 2019
• 2.37:  Devin Smith —  Out of NFL after 2016
• 3.82:  Lorenzo Mauldin  — Out of NFL after 2016
• 4.103:  Bryce Petty  —  Out of NFL after 2017
• 5.152:  G Jarvis Harrison  —  Out of NFL after 2015
• 7.223:  NT Deon Simon  —  Out of NFL after 2016

[jgb]

1 minute ago, The Crusher said:

Not dumping him, I value him too much for that. But, give me a 1st and 3rd for him to get a shot at a couple players that can result in more points? I'm there dude! You don't beat really good teams in the NFL without scoring points.  Jamaal doesn't help score points, he is an awesome guy to watch play with his effort and enthusiasm, but at the end of the day it really doesn't effect the W column. Scoring points will. 

Draft a player at #6. He becomes All Pro. Trade him for less than you got him for. Pray.

[jgb]

51 minutes ago, peebag said:

Which qb would have had better numbers than Sam with the same flotsam that we marched out there last year?

Again--this argument is at best an argument that Sam may be better than his production indicates. It is not evidence that he's an elite-QB-in-disguise. Guess who else doesn't look good with a poor supporting cast? Poor QBs.

[nycdan]

4 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Not dumping him, I value him too much for that. But, give me a 1st and 3rd for him to get a shot at a couple players that can result in more points? I'm there dude! You don't beat really good teams in the NFL without scoring points.  Jamaal doesn't help score points, he is an awesome guy to watch play with his effort and enthusiasm, but at the end of the day it really doesn't effect the W column. Scoring points will. 

Jamal says hold my beer (while I take this football)

 

Sorry...I just couldn't resist.

[slats]

6 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Last sentence is a good point.  How about we see JD run one draft and see how his picks turn out before we turn our one All-Pro into more draft picks.  If this was Macc drafting, you would need at least two 1st rounders to have a chance of replacing even half his value to the team.

Jets invested over $18M guaranteed over six years because they believed in what Joe Douglas can bring to the table. He's not on a one year trial, he's the guy. If he chooses to trade Jamal, I'll applaud the move and look forward to seeing what he does with the capital he gets in return. I think the man should be able to use whatever he has at his disposal to improve the roster as he sees fit. 

And if he doesn't trade him there's no need to do anything else with him. There should be no rush to extend him. He's under the Jets' control on-the-cheap for the next three years if they want. 

[prime21]

11 minutes ago, jgb said:

No argument Jets have heavily favored the defense in recent years. Nevertheless, I'm not sure trading our best defensive player is the "right" way to correct 10 years of mistakes. I mean obviously there is a price that anyone would pay. Three first rounders and I'd trade him. But a mid-first rounder and a mid-round pick? Downside of those picks busting is too great to unload an all pro IMHO.

You are correct that the two picks can be busts but the bigger issue is the money we have to give him when we have so many holes to fill.  Filling the holes with draft picks and spending the money on other needs is the better route for the team.

[Savage69]

42 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Santana Moss? Holy crap. hahaha.  That's back in the Jet-skins day!  

Not drafted by the Jets but Braylon Edwards and Santonio Holmes were 1st rd picks..

[choon328]

42 minutes ago, nycdan said:

It may be enough time to determine if he's 'not'.  Macc had me convinced after his first one:

• 1.6:  Leonard Williams  —  Likely to be let go as UFA after 2019
• 2.37:  Devin Smith —  Out of NFL after 2016
• 3.82:  Lorenzo Mauldin  — Out of NFL after 2016
• 4.103:  Bryce Petty  —  Out of NFL after 2017
• 5.152:  G Jarvis Harrison  —  Out of NFL after 2015
• 7.223:  NT Deon Simon  —  Out of NFL after 2016

Judging anything beyond the 2nd round for immediate impact isn't prudent in my opinion. 

[jetstream23]