Jump to content

Interesting/unsettling bit on Douglas’s grading system


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

This is from Cimini today. Apologies if it’s already been discussed:

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-jets/post/_/id/82870/closer-look-at-jamal-adams-situation-could-it-get-ugly-for-jets?platform=amp

7. A touch of Bill Belichick: The Jets will be drafting with a new grading system, which Douglas learned from the Ravens and installed last summer upon his arrival. Former Ravens GM Ozzie Newsome picked up the system from the Cleveland Browns, where he worked under Belichick in the 1990s.

Simply put, it differs from the Jets' previous system in that it places a greater emphasis on scheme fit and preferred positional traits. Under the previous regime, they graded players in a vacuum, so to speak -- an objective evaluation based on overall talent.

"We use numbers and alphabet," Newsome told ESPN. "It allows you to put players in a category. In that category, you have a very good understanding of what that player can do and who he’s being compared to."

Example: If a player receives a grade of 6.9 C, it means first-year starter with a character issue. They use letter notations that cover everything from body type to speed, with a grading scale that maxes out at 8.0. In essence, the Jets are speaking a different language under Douglas.

...and this unsettling why?  The previous system was utter garbage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Bugg said:

Simply only guy that worries me is Ruggs. he is not in the same class as Jeudy or Lamb, nor any of the tackles. Might very well be a servicable WR, but I'm not seeing him as a 11th pick. He is EXACTLY the kind of guy Maccagnan would sell everyone as the BETS PLAYER IN THE DRAFT, or MOST TALENTED PLAYER AVAILABLE. 

I disagree on ruggs.  He’s exactly what the nfl is about now, quick scores and mismatches.  Take route runners like jeudy in the 2nd and 3rd.  Take guys who can score like ruggs in the first. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, RutgersJetFan said:

IT’S A NEW LANGUAGE OF A SCALE FROM 1-8. THAT’S EIGHT WHOLE NUMBERS TO CONSIDER. THINK ABOUT HOW COMPLICATED A LANGUAGE THAT MUST BE. WE MIGHT AS WELL SAY THEY ARE SPEAKING EIGHT NEW LANGUAGES AND OUR FEEBLE MINDS CAN BARELY COMPREHEND SUCH LINGUISTICS.

This is a 6C poster, friends

  • Haha 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I’ve long maintained that Gase was the right man for the time, as an exterminator who had to bully Chris Johnson and fumigate the building. He’s done that exceptionally well, I’d say, and he deserves our gratitude. But, the reality is, you don’t keep the exterminator around when you’re going to redecorate. It’s a different skill set and I’m leery of Gase’s ability to do that. We shall see.

The visuals of him sitting on the bench midgame in a zen trance perusing his binder was not the stuff of fiery sideline leadership. There's a get after it element that has to become central. There have been too many coaches here who had give up plays, empty-headed establish the run, no biggie, we'll get em next series. It's one thing if an off tackle in the 1st quarter sets up a playaction in the 4th; but that was not the case last season. You have to treat every offensive play like a gift, an opportunity, a chance to improve you odds of scoring and winning. Need to see that this season.

Contrast with what I like about Greg Williams; him coaching from Day 1 of minicamp until minute 60 of game 17 is focused controlled rage ; beat the sheet out of the guy in front of you by any means necessary. Fill your gap, get to the QB, stay with your man, finish your tackle.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

I disagree on ruggs.  He’s exactly what the nfl is about now, quick scores and mismatches.  Take route runners like jeudy in the 2nd and 3rd.  Take guys who can score like ruggs in the first. 

Ruggs disappeared in big games. Period. 

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

To answer why I fond it unsettling is this^

How does this work? Like this?

Scenario 1:

Andrew Thomas and Jeudy are available at 11. Both with similar grades, with Thomas a notch higher. Gase says he doesn’t need an elite OLT because his system merely requires an athletic guy who can get in the way, so they take Jeudy instead?

 

Scenario 2: 

Second round, Pittman is on the board. Gregg Wiliams declares that his system requires a really stout, yet disruptive DE and Marlon Davidson is perfect for his scheme, so they bypass Pittman and take Davidson because of scheme fit?

 

Then, in two years, Thomas is a perennial Pro Bowler and Pittman is a bigger JuJu Smith-Schuster, Gase and Williams are toast and our roster has the very solid Jerry Jeudy and Markon Davidson on it because we catered to two coaches whose feet are on banana peels?

I also think Douglas is smart enough to not let Gase or whatever coach dictate that type of decision.  Douglas might slap Gase if he said something like he doesn’t need an elite LT in his scheme. 
 

I think it’s more of, what type of traits do you look for in said position. And not valuing one position over another. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ultimately though, I don't think the scheme fit grading stuff is going to create large differences, especially in that top couple rounds of the draft.  Your studs can pretty much fit in any scheme, although they might be slightly better in 1 vs another.

Where I think it probably makes the biggest difference is Rd 5-7 where these guys clearly have some sort of drastic limitations to begin with.

I don't think a lot of coaches are set in stone either with their "schemes" anymore.  Maybe a bit more on the defensive side of the ball, but good offensive coaches are pretty flexible it would seem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/19/2020 at 11:54 AM, RutgersJetFan said:

IT’S A NEW LANGUAGE OF A SCALE FROM 1-8. THAT’S EIGHT WHOLE NUMBERS TO CONSIDER. THINK ABOUT HOW COMPLICATED A LANGUAGE THAT MUST BE. WE MIGHT AS WELL SAY THEY ARE SPEAKING EIGHT NEW LANGUAGES AND OUR FEEBLE MINDS CAN BARELY COMPREHEND SUCH LINGUISTICS.

This is brilliant. Pretty sure you are  calling everyone  Including myself dumb but it still makes me laugh.  

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, IndianaJet said:

So we should draft based upon the fact that Gase might not be the head coach in 2 years?

Good grief

We should draft based on getting the best player in premium positions regardless of 'system' then you don't worry about who your coach is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, JetFan20 said:

If we are being honest with ourselves Gase and Williams are likely not going be with this organization next year. Scheme fit should not really matter this year. 

I’d take that bet.   Unless the wheels come completely off, I think Gase has two more years to implement his system and develop Darnold.  It’s Douglas job to get him the players that will allow his QB time to throw and get him some guys that can get open and catch the ball.

Once that happens Gase and Sam can both be fairly evaluated and decisions on their futures can be made.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To answer why I fond it unsettling is this^
How does this work? Like this?
Scenario 1:
Andrew Thomas and Jeudy are available at 11. Both with similar grades, with Thomas a notch higher. Gase says he doesn’t need an elite OLT because his system merely requires an athletic guy who can get in the way, so they take Jeudy instead?
 
Scenario 2: 
Second round, Pittman is on the board. Gregg Wiliams declares that his system requires a really stout, yet disruptive DE and Marlon Davidson is perfect for his scheme, so they bypass Pittman and take Davidson because of scheme fit?
 
Then, in two years, Thomas is a perennial Pro Bowler and Pittman is a bigger JuJu Smith-Schuster, Gase and Williams are toast and our roster has the very solid Jerry Jeudy and Markon Davidson on it because we catered to two coaches whose feet are on banana peels?


I dont think thats what they mean with this system. I think this is more like “in our system the X WR is most effective with these skill sets” who in the draft has the best of those skill sets. They do this some places at the high school level. I think its a much more logical way to draft.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

To answer why I fond it unsettling is this^

How does this work? Like this?

Scenario 1:

Andrew Thomas and Jeudy are available at 11. Both with similar grades, with Thomas a notch higher. Gase says he doesn’t need an elite OLT because his system merely requires an athletic guy who can get in the way, so they take Jeudy instead?

 

Scenario 2: 

Second round, Pittman is on the board. Gregg Wiliams declares that his system requires a really stout, yet disruptive DE and Marlon Davidson is perfect for his scheme, so they bypass Pittman and take Davidson because of scheme fit?

 

Then, in two years, Thomas is a perennial Pro Bowler and Pittman is a bigger JuJu Smith-Schuster, Gase and Williams are toast and our roster has the very solid Jerry Jeudy and Markon Davidson on it because we catered to two coaches whose feet are on banana peels?

I guess that’s where I take the difference to be a middle ground between catering to the staff and just drafting the best players. 

I’m not sure “I don’t need an elite left tackle” is a scheme thing. Maybe I’m nitpicking. I’d view scheme as - I’m going to run wide sets and zone running so I need an athletic tackle. Rather than taking the tackle who Gase likes most for that role - say it’s Ezra Cleveland, he takes the best tackle who based on his evaluation can fit that role - say its Thomas.

Your second example is somewhat well taken - but is that guy you described for Williams not already on the roster? I’d be stunned roster construction wise if, with how many defensive linemen the Jets have, they draft a defensive lineman. Particularly that early. They’ve got a lot of guys, most of them signed for multiple years, and Williams seems to play with the dudes he has. I could see him just being given a pick day 3 for a new toy which might be annoying.

You bring up a reasonably good point regarding Pittman - and in that example I don’t think they’re passing on Pittman because they need the DL but passing on Pittman because he’s not a great fit. But I think that’s part Gase and part Douglas if that happens.

If Douglas fails I could see the speed emphasis being part of it. Whole NFL seems to be going in that direction. Which makes sense. But it tends to be better to be the first to realize that or zig when others zag. Maybe it works out. But that’s what I’m most skeptical about with him.

  • Sympathy 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

To answer why I fond it unsettling is this^

How does this work? Like this?

Scenario 1:

Andrew Thomas and Jeudy are available at 11. Both with similar grades, with Thomas a notch higher. Gase says he doesn’t need an elite OLT because his system merely requires an athletic guy who can get in the way, so they take Jeudy instead?

 

Scenario 2: 

Second round, Pittman is on the board. Gregg Wiliams declares that his system requires a really stout, yet disruptive DE and Marlon Davidson is perfect for his scheme, so they bypass Pittman and take Davidson because of scheme fit?

 

Then, in two years, Thomas is a perennial Pro Bowler and Pittman is a bigger JuJu Smith-Schuster, Gase and Williams are toast and our roster has the very solid Jerry Jeudy and Markon Davidson on it because we catered to two coaches whose feet are on banana peels?

I think don't think those are grading questions though, are they?  By the time those questions need to be answered the player already has their grade.  The way I envision what they are talking about is the Jets might grade Wills a 6.8 because the scheme has a high premium on laterally quickness and athletic fluidity, and Thomas might be 6.7 because such and such.  Still both similar players and any grading system likely has them very close to each other.

The scenarios you outline above are more roster building philosophy questions in my opinion. How Douglas will differentiate between similar graded players at different positions.  Maccagnan had a clear philosophy, take my highest grade regardless of position.  What will Douglas use?  I imagine most scouting systems have some sort of Positional value and Roster need need metric to help navigate these issues where they have similar graded on players at different positions. While the coaches will have their input, Douglas still has the final say and those tie breakers probably come down to his valuation of Positional long term assets.

  • Upvote 1
  • Sympathy 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

To answer why I fond it unsettling is this^

How does this work? Like this?

Scenario 1:

Andrew Thomas and Jeudy are available at 11. Both with similar grades, with Thomas a notch higher. Gase says he doesn’t need an elite OLT because his system merely requires an athletic guy who can get in the way, so they take Jeudy instead?

 

Scenario 2: 

Second round, Pittman is on the board. Gregg Wiliams declares that his system requires a really stout, yet disruptive DE and Marlon Davidson is perfect for his scheme, so they bypass Pittman and take Davidson because of scheme fit?

 

Then, in two years, Thomas is a perennial Pro Bowler and Pittman is a bigger JuJu Smith-Schuster, Gase and Williams are toast and our roster has the very solid Jerry Jeudy and Markon Davidson on it because we catered to two coaches whose feet are on banana peels?

Gase has a say in the type of player he wants not who gets drafted when. 

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can’t ignore scheme fit and how a player would fit into what you are looking to do with a certain position group.  The best prospects tend to be more scheme diverse, they can do anything asked, but even with the very best prospects there are always going to be guys who’s strengths may fit one system better than others.  Having a plan on how you are going to utilize a player is key in evaluations.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am one of the single greatest Gase haters you will ever find (I was on the record, back during the Jets' interview process, that Gase was the single worst option imaginable).  With that said, I don't necessarily agree with the paranoia that Douglas' mindset is to strictly cater to him.  If that's the case, then we're screwed anyway and they both need to be gone far sooner than later.  Honestly, I think it's the simple matter of Douglas refusing to look at things in a vacuum and giving some context to the decisions, a concept that was clearly far too complicated for Mac to ever get a grasp on.

The hope is these kind of considerations will stop a team from being so mind-numbling stupid as to draft 5 first round DTs within 8 years (while signing multiple starting-level FA DTs during that period).  I think/hope the idea is to be identifying those players that give the greatest long-term benefit to the future of this team, rather than it being a matter of there being any concern of catering to the incompetence of a guy whose entire coaching career's sole moment of even moderate success was watching Peyton Manning call plays at the line while he sat and watched.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

To answer why I fond it unsettling is this^

How does this work? Like this?

Scenario 1:

Andrew Thomas and Jeudy are available at 11. Both with similar grades, with Thomas a notch higher. Gase says he doesn’t need an elite OLT because his system merely requires an athletic guy who can get in the way, so they take Jeudy instead?

 

Scenario 2: 

Second round, Pittman is on the board. Gregg Wiliams declares that his system requires a really stout, yet disruptive DE and Marlon Davidson is perfect for his scheme, so they bypass Pittman and take Davidson because of scheme fit?

 

Then, in two years, Thomas is a perennial Pro Bowler and Pittman is a bigger JuJu Smith-Schuster, Gase and Williams are toast and our roster has the very solid Jerry Jeudy and Markon Davidson on it because we catered to two coaches whose feet are on banana peels?

its very ni e qnd detailed and all...      but, in the end, it boils down to...  did they pick the goodplayers or not...      the actual reasoning behind any pick ends up being irrelevant....      imho

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

This is from Cimini today. Apologies if it’s already been discussed:

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-jets/post/_/id/82870/closer-look-at-jamal-adams-situation-could-it-get-ugly-for-jets?platform=amp

7. A touch of Bill Belichick: The Jets will be drafting with a new grading system, which Douglas learned from the Ravens and installed last summer upon his arrival. Former Ravens GM Ozzie Newsome picked up the system from the Cleveland Browns, where he worked under Belichick in the 1990s.

Simply put, it differs from the Jets' previous system in that it places a greater emphasis on scheme fit and preferred positional traits. Under the previous regime, they graded players in a vacuum, so to speak -- an objective evaluation based on overall talent.

"We use numbers and alphabet," Newsome told ESPN. "It allows you to put players in a category. In that category, you have a very good understanding of what that player can do and who he’s being compared to."

Example: If a player receives a grade of 6.9 C, it means first-year starter with a character issue. They use letter notations that cover everything from body type to speed, with a grading scale that maxes out at 8.0. In essence, the Jets are speaking a different language under Douglas.

 

If JD uses these scientific methods we'll be fine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I’ve long maintained that Gase was the right man for the time, as an exterminator who had to bully Chris Johnson and fumigate the building. He’s done that exceptionally well, I’d say, and he deserves our gratitude. But, the reality is, you don’t keep the exterminator around when you’re going to redecorate. It’s a different skill set and I’m leery of Gase’s ability to do that. We shall see.

JD is stuck with Gase for at least a year. he wants this entire rookie class to succeed. We all know Gase is crazy/spiteful/unhinged enough to bench guys he's not interested in using. A lost rookie year in the name of a new HC could be a career ruiner for all these potential picks. 

anyway JD approaches this draft he needs to get players that work for Gase's system

on a broader note, if Gase gets Fired, it means Sam is a bust and we all start over (again)

this is one of those inconvenient truths that seem to be popping up alot lately 

JD and Gase have to find success together, right away (before the Pats reload with Trevor Lawrence)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i guess you can whatif douglas grading system until the cows come home.  imo it would be foolish to draft a player that doesn't really fit what the jets are trying to do, especially if they are ranked equally.  the bpa only goes so far.  and we've seen mac flail and fail with his brand of bpa over the past 5 seasons.  they're due for a change.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...