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For the Tackle Over WR Crowd (EDIT: Top WR vs 3rd or 4th OT)


neckdemon
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2 minutes ago, themeangreenkillingmachine said:

I think people here still underestimate how bad Sanchez sucked. In 2011 the Oline wasn’t the same as 2010. No faneca and Woody. 
 

the Oline exposed Sanchez more than the WRs. 
 

And that Oline exposed Shaun Greene as well

It was just after Sanchez got paid if memory serves

they built the team around the QB turns out he wasn't a good QB to build around

I know it's not logical but it still disturbs me they drafted another USC QB Darnold and expect him to be better than Sanchez. 

maybe USC QBs can be good in the NFL but someplace like AZ - not in the swamps of NJ playing away in AFC East stadiums late in the year

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1 minute ago, bitonti said:

AGREE! 

to summarize Sam is taking 2.9 seconds to make a throw and the line gives 2.5 seconds. Those number don't square.

Even if they somehow draft an All Pro LT tonight, they aren't getting that number to 3.1 to accomodate Sam Darnold's 2.9. Maybe they get up to 2.7 or 2.8 and become a "Good" line

the Colts line by the way is a top 5 line in football at the moment. They maul. 

what has to happen is that 2.9 has to come down 

It's possible he's holding it because no one is getting open, in which case the WR argument makes more sense.  

all this WR vs OT discussion does is keep everyone's mind off the grim truth 14 has to get MEASURABLY better or the whole operation is boned. 

 Yep and what helps you get the ball out quick   ? Big competent WR's who are not afraid the roam among the LB's and make the tough catches and make the hot reads Robbie just never ever made.

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1 minute ago, bitonti said:

It was just after Sanchez got paid if memory serves

they built the team around the QB turns out he wasn't a good QB to build around

I know it's not logical but it still disturbs me they drafted another USC QB Darnold and expect him to be better than Sanchez. 

maybe USC QBs can be good in the NFL but someplace like AZ - not in the swamps of NJ playing away in AFC East stadiums late in the year

Dude thats apples to oranges. Same school doesn't mean shyt. I guess Dan Fouts is a precursor for Justin Herbert? Namath for Todd?

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What makes Brady so effective his quick release also the time he is given to throw the ball.  So the oline is the priority especially when the draft is so deep with WR this year.   Sam has shown with time he can be a play maker also when under duress he is horrible like every QB.  Not changing my mind on this.   OT 1st round.Sam Darnold Throw GIF by New York Jets

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1 minute ago, Smashmouth said:

 Yep and what helps you get the ball out quick   ? Big competent WR's who are not afraid the roam among the LB's and make the tough catches and make the hot reads Robbie just never ever made.

Insert Robbie Anderson Hot Read Cop Wife joke here 

Jets Joke Bot 3000

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1 hour ago, bitonti said:

For someone who loves offensive line far more than the average human, in pains me to say this, but lines don't matter anymore to NFL success

not the way they used to... yes it matters on a cold day, in the playoffs perhaps. But most of the time the league is about scoring points and that means QBs and WRs 

they want 75 yard plays and that doesn't mean 7 step drops it means Tyreek Hill catching it in stride and 60 YAC. That's sportcenter. not what the offensive line is up to on 3rd and short. 

Sam is never going to get more time than 2.5 seconds, maybe 3. 

at least give him someone who can get open and scares the other team's defensive coordinator 

excuse me I have to go back to writing 32 team offensive line reports 

 

I still want OL at 11 but this is an interesting take.  

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Just now, TNJet said:

Dude thats apples to oranges. Same school doesn't mean shyt. I guess Dan Fouts is a precursor for Justin Herbert? Namath for Todd?

Dan Fouts is the last Oregon QB who was decent. Joey Harrington, Kellen Clemens and like 6 other scrubs are the Precursors to Herbert

There are no easy jobs in the NFL being the QB1 at Duck university (or most places in the Pac12) is a cushy gig. It's not just Herbert, it's the entire conference. Josh Rosen is the mascot for this "easy living" "chicken wings in the hot tub" type of mentality.  People hope Darnold is different but he missed a month with Mono, what are we even talking about? 

14 has a ton to prove...they were the least explosive offense in the league and blaming it all on the line is being hopeful 

it's putting a simple answer onto a complicated problem.  Yes making the line better helps, but the point of this thing is to score points. Lots of em. Like 35 per game, per team. Anything less is caveman thinking. They don't want 10-9 games anymore. 

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4 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Dan Fouts is the last Oregon QB who was decent. Joey Harrington, Kellen Clemens and like 6 other scrubs are the Precursors to Herbert

There are no easy jobs in the NFL being the QB1 at Duck university (or most places in the Pac12) is a cushy gig. It's not just Herbert, it's the entire conference. Josh Rosen is the mascot for this "easy living" "chicken wings in the hot tub" type of mentality.  People hope Darnold is different but he missed a month with Mono, what are we even talking about? 

14 has a ton to prove...they were the least explosive offense in the league and blaming it all on the line is being hopeful 

it's putting a simple answer onto a complicated problem.  Yes making the line better helps, but the point of this thing is to score points. Lots of em. Like 35 per game, per team. Anything less is caveman thinking. They don't want 10-9 games anymore. 

Thats typical of all college programs. What college has produced multiple pro bowl QBs? Not many because great passers don't grow on trees. USC probably has more than most. Notre Dame? Idk...Tennessee? Michigan? Hard to pick one that has more than 1 great QB. Carson Palmer was pretty good with help though, Cassel as well.

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Why not do both?

WR OR O-Tackle at #11

Center OR WR in the 2nd

O-Line, WR, RB in the 3rd

O-Line, WR, RB in the 3rd

O-Line, WR, RB in the 4th 

5 picks, should net 3x O-linemen and 2x weapons.  Or vice versa, depending on how it plays out.

That is what I want to see, in whatever order our GM thinks best.

What I do not want to see is Edge or CB at #11, LB in the 2nd, etc.  

O-line AND WR can both be addressed in this draft, I believe that.  If we're smart.

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1 hour ago, bitonti said:

quick name KC's best lineman without looking it up 

the SB was another referendum of great OL vs great weapons and weapons won again. 

the league loves drama and points scoring comebacks not diligent 3 yards and a cloud of dust "stay on schedule" offense. every rule change they make is designed to emphasize the weapons and the QB. Heck you can't even hit the QB if you get there. 

I'll say it again, Sam is never going to get more than 2.5 seconds. It's industry standard. He has to make fast, smart decisions on 3rd and long and that doesn't matter how good the line is 

truth is, and again this is coming from someone who watched nearly every snap of every game last season (all teams not just NYJ), focused on the line... the better an offensive line is, the more they can impose their will on running downs. They can all pretty much provide 2.5 seconds in pass protection. The great lines can maul when everyone knows it's coming. 

and to take it a step further, most Jets fans are misinformed about how much time Sam (or whoever the QB was) getting last year, on average.  the tackles weren't even the problem. Beachum was fine until he sprained both ankles and tried to play on it. They went 7-9 because Sam had mono and the team lacked explosion on offense

while I hope they bring home Becton tonight, adding a blue chip OT doesn't fix what's wrong with the Jets - not the 2020 Jets at least

 

this is great stuff. wr please!!!!

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3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Why not do both?

WR OR O-Tackle at #11

Center OR WR in the 2nd

O-Line, WR, RB in the 3rd

O-Line, WR, RB in the 3rd

O-Line, WR, RB in the 4th 

5 picks, should net 3x O-linemen and 2x weapons.  Or vice versa, depending on how it plays out.

That is what I want to see, in whatever order our GM thinks best.

What I do not want to see is Edge or CB at #11, LB in the 2nd, etc.  

O-line AND WR can both be addressed in this draft, I believe that.  If we're smart.

i agree with this. i'm specifically hoping for jeudy or lamb at 11 is all. if its a OT then it better be wr in the 2nd.

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39 minutes ago, bitonti said:

quick name KC's best lineman without looking it up 

the SB was another referendum of great OL vs great weapons and weapons won again. 

the league loves drama and points scoring comebacks not diligent 3 yards and a cloud of dust "stay on schedule" offense. every rule change they make is designed to emphasize the weapons and the QB. Heck you can't even hit the QB if you get there. 

I'll say it again, Sam is never going to get more than 2.5 seconds. It's industry standard. He has to make fast, smart decisions on 3rd and long and that doesn't matter how good the line is 

truth is, and again this is coming from someone who watched nearly every snap of every game last season (all teams not just NYJ), focused on the line... the better an offensive line is, the more they can impose their will on running downs. They can all pretty much provide 2.5 seconds in pass protection. The great lines can maul when everyone knows it's coming. 

and to take it a step further, most Jets fans are misinformed about how much time Sam (or whoever the QB was) getting last year, on average.  the tackles weren't even the problem. Beachum was fine until he sprained both ankles and tried to play on it. They went 7-9 because Sam had mono and the team lacked explosion on offense

while I hope they bring home Becton tonight, adding a blue chip OT doesn't fix what's wrong with the Jets - not the 2020 Jets at least

 

 

Quick name KC's worst lineman

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The superbowl results in no way determined anything about whether OL or WR contributed more to deciding who won that game (and saying that this 1 game proves your believe in general is silly)

a team with a great OL & great D lost to a team with arguably the best QB in football.  All this proves is that QB is more important than any other position.

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agreed all of the rule changes benefit offense, specifically WR.  This does nothing to show WR being more important than OL though ... it merely shows that playing WR now is easier than it was playing WR 20 years ago.  Arguments could be made that this allows a 2nd tier WR to perform well and that a 1st tier LT is more important as he gets no help from rule changes.

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In discussing Sam's time in the pocket

The industry standard doesn't mean a thing.  Also talking specifically about 3rd and longs also means nothing.

Sam would prefer to have more time in the pocket rather than less

(whether than means 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, or 4.5 seconds ... more time is better for him)

(you can't believe Sam, or any QB, wouldn't have preferred the Cowboys OL over the 2019 Jets OL)

(he would prefer ... and perform better with more time in the pocket ... be it on 3rd and long, or on 2nd and medium, or on 1st and short)

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as always your knowledge on OL and NFL as a whole are respected and appreciated ... they also do nothing to show you are correct in this instance ... just an my having been a bench-warmer WR in highschool don't do anything to justify my position

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I agree that the better an OLine is the better they can help the running game and control the clock.

However, the better an OLine is also can help the passing game perform better as well

(this part of your comments seem to indicate to me you are supporting drafting OL over WR ... not sure how this could possibly support the opposite?)

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your "take it a step further" comments also do nothing to show drafting a WR in round 1 is better than drafting an LT

regardless of the exact time Sam had, more time is better for him than less time

Agreed that interior OL was the weakest point of our OL,

however you are wrong is saying that "the tackles weren't even the problem".  Fact of the matter is that the were bot weak as well. both our starting LT and RT were let go as there performance didn't merit keeping them.

Having only our young swing OT and a young OT/TE prospect as our projected LT/RT on our team at this point ... exclamation marks the need we have for OT help.

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The Jets went 7-9 for many reasons.  This includes lack of explosiveness on O ... it also includes poor performance at C, LG, RG ... it also includes poor performance at LT & RT.

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I want our 1st pick to be LT.  (your support of Beckton confuses me because I have been thinking you wanted to go WR over LT with our 1st pick.  Apologies if I've been wrong on that)

LT doesn't fix the 2020 Jets ... ... nor would a WR ... but LT is the best first step in fixing the Jets in 2020 and beyond

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, TNJet said:

Thats typical of all college programs. What college has produced multiple pro bowl QBs? Not many because great passers don't grow on trees. USC probably has more than most. Notre Dame? Idk...Tennessee? Michigan? Hard to pick one that has more than 1 great QB. Carson Palmer was pretty good with help though, Cassel as well.

there's a difference between QB1 at Cal and Stanford and QB1 at USC/UCLA and I think recent history bears that statement out. 

USC is actually considered a top 5 "QB university" school but the names on that list are so terrible. Matt Leinart? Purdue has created an unlikely amount of NFL QBs over the  years  but overall I agree it's a case by case basis. 

it just seems like the definition of insanity to keep drafting USC QBs, flying them to New Jersey and expecting this to go well. Sam Darnold had like never played in snow before, and Sanchez may have never seen it before in his life. 

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5 minutes ago, neckdemon said:

i agree with this. i'm specifically hoping for jeudy or lamb at 11 is all. if its a OT then it better be wr in the 2nd.

I undersatnd.

I'm kinda hoping for Jeudy, Pittman Jr. and Biadacz/Hennessey in our first three picks, but that's probably hoping for too much. 

But that is what this moment is about isn't it?  Hope? 

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1 minute ago, bitonti said:

there's a difference between QB1 at Cal and Stanford and QB1 at USC/UCLA and I think recent history bears that statement out. 

USC is actually considered a top 5 "QB university" school but the names on that list are so terrible. Matt Leinart? Purdue has created an unlikely amount of NFL QBs over the  years  but overall I agree it's a case by case basis. 

it just seems like the definition of insanity to keep drafting USC QBs, flying them to New Jersey and expecting this to go well. Sam Darnold had like never played in snow before, and Sanchez may have never seen it before in his life. 

I actually had the USC bummer feeling after we drafted Sam too. Boy was I wrong. He is easily the best we've had since Testaverde. Seeing is believing. I too was like oh no, another Sanchez, Booty, Barkley, Leinart, Kessler? But he actually is heads above all those cats. I was hoping gor Rosen. Thank god I was wrong. Could you imagine Rosen behind last years line? Omg.

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4 minutes ago, ljr said:

 

Quick name KC's worst lineman

---

 

(you can't believe Sam, or any QB, wouldn't have preferred the Cowboys OL over the 2019 Jets OL)

(this part of your comments seem to indicate to me you are supporting drafting OL over WR ... not sure how this could possibly support the opposite?)

 

 

LDT the doctor at RG Laurent Duvernay Tardiff had they lost that game it would have been because of him 

but they didn't lose they won despite being down a ton late,  because they can score

the Cowboys line one could argue is proof the QB needs to be great or a Great line doesn't mean jack squat. they went 8-8 last year with that line of 3 All Pro's and Lael Collins (1st rd talent) and Connor Williams at LG (2nd round pick).  They signed Dak as their franchise player this seems misguided, but they don't have many other options. 

The Dallas Cowboys team construction is not an example to be followed

as for OL over WR i tend to believe all the OL will be gone by 11. This dude wants Josh Jones at 11 at some point the value at other position becomes too tough to ignore. 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, bitonti said:

there's a difference between QB1 at Cal and Stanford and QB1 at USC/UCLA and I think recent history bears that statement out. 

USC is actually considered a top 5 "QB university" school but the names on that list are so terrible. Matt Leinart? Purdue has created an unlikely amount of NFL QBs over the  years  but overall I agree it's a case by case basis. 

it just seems like the definition of insanity to keep drafting USC QBs, flying them to New Jersey and expecting this to go well. Sam Darnold had like never played in snow before, and Sanchez may have never seen it before in his life. 

Oh..btw... then who is your other stud QBs from Cal or Stanford? Obviously Elway and Rogers are their best...then who?

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2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

LDT the doctor at RG Laurent Duvernay Tardiff had they lost that game it would have been because of him 

but they didn't lose they won despite being down a ton late,  because they can score

the Cowboys line one could argue is proof the QB needs to be great or a Great line doesn't mean jack squat. they went 8-8 last year with that line of 3 All Pro's and Lael Collins (1st rd talent) and Connor Williams at LG (2nd round pick).  They signed Dak as their franchise player this seems misguided, but they don't have many other options. 

The Dallas Cowboys team construction is not an example to be followed

as for OL over WR i tend to believe all the OL will be gone by 11. This dude wants Josh Jones at 11 at some point the value at other position becomes too tough to ignore. 

 

 

 

Because wr is deep into the 4th round this year.

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1 minute ago, TNJet said:

I actually had the USC bummer feeling after we drafted Sam too. Boy was I wrong. He is easily the best we've had since Testaverde. Seeing is believing. I too was like oh no, another Sanchez, Booty, Barkley, Leinart, Kessler? But he actually is heads above all those cats. I was hoping gor Rosen. Thank god I was wrong. Could you imagine Rosen behind last years line? Omg.

I'm not as forgiving of Sam Darnold as a draft pick or as current QB1. 

he's Ok. He has moments of greatness. Maybe a top 25 QB in the NFL.

There's no measurable way to sit there and say he's worth the price they paid. 

He's not Rosen (thank god) but he's not Lamar Jackson.

bottom line he hasn't made it through 2 years healthy. they went 7-9 with QB1 missing a month with a social disease I expect QB1 to play all 16 games with zero excuses, Sam has not done that yet 

I'm not saying he sucks or is a bust but at the moment he's closer to Sanchez than Carson Palmer. 14 has to get MUCH better. 

by the way Sam Darnold will require a 100 million dollar extension one day, chew on those apples. 

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2 minutes ago, TNJet said:

Oh..btw... then who is your other stud QBs from Cal or Stanford? Obviously Elway and Rogers are their best...then who?

andrew luck was the best single QB prospect for a generation 

the colts ruined his body but he was the standard for what a QB prospect should look like 

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4 minutes ago, bitonti said:

I'm not as forgiving of Sam Darnold as a draft pick or as current QB1. 

he's Ok. He has moments of greatness. Maybe a top 25 QB in the NFL.

There's no measurable way to sit there and say he's worth the price they paid. 

He's not Rosen (thank god) but he's not Lamar Jackson.

bottom line he hasn't made it through 2 years healthy. they went 7-9 with QB1 missing a month with a social disease I expect QB1 to play all 16 games with zero excuses, Sam has not done that yet 

I'm not saying he sucks or is a bust but at the moment he's closer to Sanchez than Carson Palmer. 14 has to get MUCH better. 

by the way Sam Darnold will require a 100 million dollar extension one day, chew on those apples. 

Yep thats why I'm selling the Jamal Trade. Need that green for Sam.

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46 minutes ago, bitonti said:

It was just after Sanchez got paid if memory serves

they built the team around the QB turns out he wasn't a good QB to build around

I know it's not logical but it still disturbs me they drafted another USC QB Darnold and expect him to be better than Sanchez. 

maybe USC QBs can be good in the NFL but someplace like AZ - not in the swamps of NJ playing away in AFC East stadiums late in the year

You're comparing Darnold with Sanchez? Really?

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4 minutes ago, bitonti said:

andrew luck was the best single QB prospect for a generation 

the colts ruined his body but he was the standard for what a QB prospect should look like 

Explain for a Generation? I think he was the most overrated ever. Couldn't stay healthy (your prob with Sam) and couldn't win crap, Jets hardly ever lost to him (look it up) and is already out of the league. Thats a failed draft pick right there.

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3 minutes ago, peebag said:

You're comparing Darnold with Sanchez? Really?

You mean Mark Sanchez most successful playoff QB in Jets history? 

Yeah it's a fair comparison. Both ways. They are both guys under performing their draft slot. 

neither one can be considered above average NFL QB's 

we have hope for Darnold that's the difference 

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Look...I expect JD to take a tackle. 

But is it any tackle that happens to escape being snatched in the top 10?  None of us know the answer to that.  IMO if none remains he's going to probably go WR or tradedown if available.

I just finished a simulated draft.  I traded down with Denver to secure another 3rd round pick.  Making it 5 picks in the crucial 1-3 rounds.  And to my shocking surprise...this is what came out of it!   

I've been doing several of these simulations...making trades out of #11.  To get an idea of what could happen and be available after the tradedown.  

Who knows if this is an indication of surprises that can happen in this draft.  Especially in that crucial 1st round.

image.png.29843138caa8de09bc4cb59ecbd8adc2.png

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2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

You mean Mark Sanchez most successful playoff QB in Jets history? 

Yeah it's a fair comparison. Both ways. They are both guys under performing their draft slot. 

neither one can be considered above average NFL QB's 

we have hope for Darnold that's the difference 

So Mark Sanchez was responsible for the Jets 2009-10 play-offs, ok, got it.

You compared Darnold with Lamar Jackson so let's play what if, put Darnold on the Ravens squad (less Mono) and Lamar on the Jets.

Who'd be more successful then?

If you'd say Lamar, I got some swamp land here in Nebraska to sell you.

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Offense starts with protecting your qb. Why do you think quarterbacks in New England always look amazing when they had to step in for Brady? The best tool you can give a qb is protection. The next thing is your qb, if you have a good qb he makes the wrs around him look good and not the other way around. Most elite QBs share the workload so that every reciever and tight end and rb on the roster so if you draft an elite wr prospect he is only really going to give you about 10 snaps worth of production per game on a good day. An offensive tackle would be in for every snap so you get more value out of them.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using JetNation.com mobile app

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2 hours ago, Embrace the Suck said:

There are plenty of different metrics. While they were good I never was like "wow, I blown away by this oline". Mangold was solid injury wise and even though he may not have missed many games entirely when he was out, even for a couple series, it was obvious. The Jets are still trying to replace him and brick. Also, when looking at the Jets wr play consider the QB throwing to them.

I'm going by Sanchez was well protected, we had the number 1 rushing offense and the number 1 RB in the NFL. 

Dont know what other matrix would knock those facts out

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It's not either or, the Jets need both. I've been about prioritizing the o-line in the draft. But that doesn't mean ignoring WR. Not at all.

Whatever the best value is, draft them wherever. If equal, take the o-lineman first then a WR later on.

Otherwise overall: be sure you come out of the draft knowing you've done much to fortify the o-line.

My one caveat drafting a WR at 11: Douglas better be damn sure he's going to be a perennial Pro Bowler. Otherwise it's a terrible waste of draft value. Drafting a WR early carries with it more risk, so Douglas better be right if he does.

 

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Quote

LDT the doctor at RG Laurent Duvernay Tardiff had they lost that game it would have been because of him 

lol ... point was neither knowing KC's best nor their worst OLineman meant anything

Quote

but they didn't lose they won despite being down a ton late,  because they can score

agreed, being able to score when down a ton is of utmost importance

Quote

the Cowboys line one could argue is proof the QB needs to be great or a Great line doesn't mean jack squat. they went 8-8 last year with that line of 3 All Pro's and Lael Collins (1st rd talent) and Connor Williams at LG (2nd round pick).  They signed Dak as their franchise player this seems misguided, but they don't have many other options. 

not really sure the point you are trying to make here.

I think you meant this in response to my saying "Sam would have preferred the Cowboys OL to our OL"

talking about Dak not being great despite having a great OL doesn't have anything to do with the fact that any QB would  prefer a great OL to a bad OL.  I can't imagine that you could possibly be disputing this.

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The Dallas Cowboys team construction is not an example to be followed

I think the Cowboys having a top OL is absolutely an example to follow ... will agree to disagree with you on this.

 

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as for OL over WR i tend to believe all the OL will be gone by 11. This dude wants Josh Jones at 11 at some point the value at other position becomes too tough to ignore. 

 

depending on how the picks fall I'm afraid that this may be true.  If so, I hope a move up to 7 or 9 for a top OL is in play.  Don't get me wrong I don't want this to be necessary ... but I prefer that to staying at 11 and being forced to go best WR

 

JMO

 

 

 

 

 

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