HBO WATCHMEN Mafia - Game Thread -TULSA WINS!!!

[Gone]

3 hours ago, Dicetosser said:

@A.J.   i just say ure answer to nyn

 

@DPR  weith the exception that im tossing up Dandie. My problem stems from not knowing for sure who is the player. I THINK  75%ish that its cory. But every now and then he posts uncory like stuff.

What im tossing up is whether his vote on you   the original one today is reverse psychology.  Right now you have to be considered the clearesty player in the game    someone even said   think it was nyn maybe  something along the lines of why would scum vote you considering that fact.

Im thinking that might be eXACTLY what happened and exactly WHY it was done.

 

It doesnt help that I just cant get a handle on Drums.  

 

Also was talking about dpr. AJ isnt on that lvl for me.

[Gone]

15 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

• Basically agree w/quoted post - if DPR isn't town then bravo for being a beautiful psychopath.
• AJ is most likely town w/reveal and his play so far.
• Hess actually played today and for the first time ever I think he's town. Might follow him onto my train.
• 80 for the first time ever I think may be town so he's probably scum.
• Arsis seems town 
• JiF I have no idea how to read except he's a douche.
• Pac is Pac except a more funny and active version - no clue.
• Dandie - ****ed if I know - how he decided DPR was a good vote is beyond me but why would scum do that?
• CTM, jville, smash, dice - null
• Starting to think nyn could be a little scorpion scum
• would be suprised if drums is not scum. 

If I make drums the leading train it will look scummy 

vote drums

Orly?

[deckerfan]

Official Vote Count:

Dandie (5) - DPR, Drums, Arsis, Dice, JIF

Drums (5) - Pac, Dandie, Barry, Hess, Nyn

CTM (2) - 80, AJ

80 (2) - CTM, Smash

With 16 Citizens of Tulsa, it takes 9 to arrest 

[Gone]

2 hours ago, Dandie Andie Doodle said:

@Dicetosser and @Nynaeve a couple things:

1. Why does it matter who I am? Evaluate my content and maneuvers, don’t be desperate for meta.

2. Details. I’m being very lazy. I confess, I didn’t know it was D3 and all the details. I’m trying to stay on top of it more now. So, the WIFOM becomes would scum over-reach without details and put a target in his back? Or, is it just dumb lazy town play, causing an unintended focus away from true scum hunting?

This is on me. I get it. I’m not subbing out, already discussed with SMC. I’m having fun here. I’ll just try harder to stay with the pace.

Why are you tagging me?

[Gone]

13 hours ago, Nynaeve said:

I should prolly go pass out... it's past 4 am 

nini

I laughed that stark upvoted me going to bed xD

[HessStation]

47 minutes ago, JiF said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here are all the votes after the a 25 minutes heads up to deadline before DPR jumped on the grenade.  

So looking back, I dont know how what I did could be anymore damning than the people who didnt chose the big trains and went to Nolder before the deadline.  Drums actually had 3 votes before the reveals started happening and Nold had zero.

 

You’re Rodman I’m Jordan who’s Pippen?

[Gone]

13 hours ago, DPR said:

Looks like Ape is hitting the peppermint schnapps again - sh*ts about to get real!

Well at least someone is having fun. 

[Gone]

8 hours ago, A.J. said:

Looking at Dice and I think he might be Town too lol

Correct

Though I wish he'd contribute more

[Barry McCockinner]

3 hours ago, Dicetosser said:

This just seems like busy work. It says nothing really.

These were my quick reads after catching up reading for the day. That's it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After ISO'ing Drums I feel a lot better about him.

There were a few things that stood out to me on D1 that seemed like he was just full of ish, but they weren't really subtantive so probably useless. One of the things I thought seemed fishy was he was talking about interviewing for a new job as a teacher and schools are closed down all over the north east - which is why I asked where he lives. Another thing that's not all that game related but possibly could have caught a lie. I didn't.

unvote

 

[jvill 51]

So bad news is looks like the hard drive on my laptop crashed and burned. New iPad which I had conveniently ordered a couple days earlier not supposed to get here for another 2-3 weeks. Good news is, wait, ****, that was all bad news.

Anyone know a convenient way to multiquote on mobile? I’ve tried to do it before and wound up having formatting issues / everything erased and can’t risk that I might chuck the phone in anger at this point.

[Drums]

4 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

These were my quick reads after catching up reading for the day. That's it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After ISO'ing Drums I feel a lot better about him.

There were a few things that stood out to me on D1 that seemed like he was just full of ish, but they weren't really subtantive so probably useless. One of the things I thought seemed fishy was he was talking about interviewing for a new job as a teacher and schools are closed down all over the north east - which is why I asked where he lives. Another thing that's not all that game related but possibly could have caught a lie. I didn't.

unvote

 

Bitch, I think I got that job. One more interview some time next week (third one, the one with the contract offer) so I feel good about it. Schools are still open, we just moved to distance learning. Even in the US that's the case, at least for middle school and high school. 

[Drums]

4 minutes ago, jvill 51 said:

So bad news is looks like the hard drive on my laptop crashed and burned. New iPad which I had conveniently ordered a couple days earlier not supposed to get here for another 2-3 weeks. Good news is, wait, ****, that was all bad news.

Anyone know a convenient way to multiquote on mobile? I’ve tried to do it before and wound up having formatting issues / everything erased and can’t risk that I might chuck the phone in anger at this point.

Not sure about it but have you tried the Jetnation app? I've never used it but maybe it has that function.

[Gone]

6 hours ago, A.J. said:

Tier 1: CTM, Hess, AVM

Tier 2: Barry, Nyn, Arsis, Jvill

Tier 3: Smash, Dandie, DPR

I realize that is more than half the roster but I will explain further and I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Tier 3 is all Town. Consider it more a representation for my levels of concern on those listed.
 

DPR I can only see as an independent if not Town. He doesn’t fit as Stark’s partner unless his thought of the alliance being formed last Night was bad guy monologue and he is now linked to the Kalvary. He seems to have a lot of powers which makes me wonder.

Dandie would be resorting to trash level derp clear gambit if he’s lying about not knowing the details of DPR’s actions this game.

Smash is ? to me. I think his tone is good but don’t know him very well as a player. Not a fan of his D1 votes, but D1 play is messy.

Jvill took over a questionable Nolder slot. I’m hesitant because Stark was really zeroing in here but I don’t know his scum meta to say whether that’s good or bad. While others were focused on Stark’s claimed game-ending power, Jvill was instead bothered by the wording of the reveal. Minor, but it’s curious to me. He’s a tricky player so definitely watching. Want to know where he’s leaning today.

Arsis on record with the power transfer thing, which apparently went down last Night phase. Could be coincidence that Stark claimed that ability and he vetted but sticks out. Don’t blame DPR for questioning it.  Overall haven’t hated his game, he tunneled on JC pretty good and didn’t seem to ever consider Stark on D1. I don’t remember where he ended up on D2 so maybe worth another read.

Nyn is leading in post counts now but she did the same last game as SK mafia before she died. I’m coming around to thinking this is probably a more straight forward game so I wouldn’t classify her as scum hunting scum at this point until I have reason to believe there is two teams. Felt like she’s reacted badly to some things which I’ve stated already. Seems like she might be reevaluating her read on 80 now which could have clouded her vision D1 / D2. I feel like she had good reason to vote CTM after his iso but is on Drums now, which if I’m correct that he’s Town could be troublesome. I don’t have her as locked in as I’d like at this point in the game, but I also think if she had a gun she would’ve stumped to kill me by now. Dumb reason, but it’s where I’m at.

Barry I said earlier if Drums were scum it would look good for him, but after rereading Drums I think the inverse is probably more true. Barry might’ve just talked himself off a scum wagon D1 cause JC hit some generic scum tell, but the switch in stance which happened to also break a tie between Town / scum wagons is considered damning, D1 or no.

AVM I will need to ISO and read. Have been up and down with him throughout the game. Felt he’s buddied up to 80/JiF quite a bit. Thought his vote on me was opportunistic. He did switch to Stark after but I don’t know him well enough to say that’s good or not. Just feels like he’s playing in the background. His posts are reasonable but it’s more the overall lack of presence that makes me wary. I’d like an answer on his current scum reads.

Hess is a mess. Can’t track his thought processes in the moment. Flings votes around like it’s nothing and I don’t see any sort of method behind it, or better said any real tangible evidence that it is affecting his reads. Feels like it’s all for show. I would lynch him just because I don’t think I can Town clear him with his play style and I don’t trust carrying him deep into the game. I also don’t like how he has to backfill reasoning when he gets called out, like that entire episode with Smash.

CTM I feel would just be more obvious Town to me. He led the charge lynching scum!Smash in the TMNT game and I feel like this version is way more subdued. Nothing is wrong with his play, so to speak, it’s just a vibe. Him doubling down on 80 when he got called out today and being gone since is not a good look imo. His scum flip might be enough to make me reconsider Hess but I can’t say for sure.

TLDR - I’ll lynch anyone in Tier 1

I mean you would 100% be dead rn lmfao  but that's neither here nor there. Lets just say I'm the least of your worries if you're town.

Not feeling the same irt drums and barry myself. Maybe it's just me being petulant and stubborn. But I guess I'm  game to off CTM cause his iso didnt look great. My reluctance irt him btw is if I'm wrong that it's gonna cost us. Not pr worry just skill set wise. Hess I think is town or 3rd party. AVM I will have to iso later to see. Don't remember much from his stances.

Jvill im not sure off either. He sounds fine but he strikes me as a logical player and from personal experience it's not that hard to sound logical regardless of alignment.

[HessStation]

34 minutes ago, JiF said:

Just grabbed this post as I was looking back at who was grabbing at my inconsequential vote hours before the deadline who ignored players that were around who didnt consoolidate.  This post by Barry stood out as he defended Start and threw shade at me calling Stark out for lying.

Ewwww Drums, you were pushing it hard and making it seem much more dire than it was...

AVM joining on the weak sauce not mentioning, Nyn, AJ, Hess who were actually around at deadline and didnt consolidate.  Nyn and AJ were voting Drums at that time.  No mention of their move to a hopeless lynch in Nold at the deadline.

 

 

 

I wanted to grab these to once again, lol, at AJ but also because he was someone who didnt consolidate during the deadline.

 

Barry playing obv scum as first time scum?

[Drums]

3 minutes ago, Nynaeve said:

I mean you would 100% be dead rn lmfao  but that's neither here nor there. Lets just say I'm the least of your worries if you're town.

Not feeling the same irt drums and barry myself. Maybe it's just me being petulant and stubborn. But I guess I'm  game to off CTM cause his iso didnt look great. My reluctance irt him btw is if I'm wrong that it's gonna cost us. Not pr worry just skill set wise. Hess I think is town or 3rd party. AVM I will have to iso later to see. Don't remember much from his stances.

Jvill im not sure off either. He sounds fine but he strikes me as a logical player and from personal experience it's not that hard to sound logical regardless of alignment.

Would you say that I am most likely scum or town? Same question for your thoughts on Barry

[HessStation]

Unvote vote CTM

[Gone]

2 hours ago, Dandie Andie Doodle said:

See, it’s weird. You’re notes are actually picking up on some good things. Like Barrys play... but, you vote me because I won’t confirm if I’m Cory, Ape, or any of the other zillion pimple poppers on DM.

Scum hunt.

This looks like opportunism.

He might hate me for saying it but in some ways he plays like nolder. There are some things that are like red lines for him and he tends to latch on for dear life.

He does try to fake it as scum. I would just be surprised if it's what he's done so far. Feels genuine to me. Like I said previously, I wish that he'd have a wider outlook on the game but maybe I'm kidding myself lol

[Gone]

2 hours ago, JiF said:

2 things

- too much "town clearing" going on based on feels and ISO whatever the **** that is.  It's a dangerous strategy that really gets us nowhere.

- dice hasnt provided a single game related post; completely fixated on out of game content. Is Arsis from DM and now is Dandie, Ape and he's actually voting him for that rationale and not the fact that Dandie might be the scummiest player in the game.

I'm almost tempted to pivot.  I like Dandie vs. Drums but maybe it should be Dandie vs. Dice.

 

Lol

[SMC]

Official Vote Count:

Dandie (5) - DPR, Drums, Arsis, Dice, JIF

Drums (3) - Pac, Dandie, Nyn

CTM (3) - 80, AJ, Hess

80 (2) - CTM, Smash

With 16 Citizens of Tulsa, it takes 9 to arrest 

[deckerfan]

Official Vote Count:

Dandie (5) - DPR, Drums, Arsis, Dice, JIF

Drums (3) - Pac, Dandie, Nyn

CTM (3) - 80, AJ, Hess

80 (2) - CTM, Smash

With 16 Citizens of Tulsa, it takes 9 to arrest 

[Gone]

22 minutes ago, Drums said:

Would you say that I am most likely scum or town? Same question for your thoughts on Barry

I havent been a fan of yours or barry's play. You haven't done anything that makes me lean town.

[Gone]

unvote

vote ctm

 

[SMC]

Official Vote Count:

Dandie (5) - DPR, Drums, Arsis, Dice, JIF

CTM (4) - 80, AJ, Hess, Nyn

Drums (2) - Pac, Dandie

80 (2) - CTM, Smash

With 16 Citizens of Tulsa, it takes 9 to arrest 

[Gone]

@CTM @Smashmouth

Thoughts on recent going ons?

[Gone]

@AVM?

[DPR]

28 minutes ago, Nynaeve said:

He might hate me for saying it but in some ways he plays like nolder. There are some things that are like red lines for him and he tends to latch on for dear life.

He does try to fake it as scum. I would just be surprised if it's what he's done so far. Feels genuine to me. Like I said previously, I wish that he'd have a wider outlook on the game but maybe I'm kidding myself lol

I’m seeing it the same way 

what is your read on Dandie now, and what did you think of JiF’s post?

[Pac]

I'm not exactly sure what has prompted the sudden increase in level of comfortability with the Mexican man, but it certainly bears watching as our mystery continues to unravel.

CTM is someone I would be willing to dispatch of.  If people will kindly get him to a spot where only 1 more vote is required for his removal, I will lay upon him a final vote, (colloquially referred to as a hammer), that will have him questioning the meaning of life itself.

 

[Gone]

14 minutes ago, DPR said:

I’m seeing it the same way 

what is your read on Dandie now, and what did you think of JiF’s post?

I'm not really reading most of JiF's posts so you'd have to be specific. If you're talking about dandie lying that he didn't know it was d3 I agree that it's not a great look. I was more caught up with him tagging me when I have not really spoken about who was in his slot since my "cory?lol" comment early on. 

Dandie has done some moves that seem thick headed to me and not conducive to achieving a mislynch from a scum pov. He's taken you on initially which is absurd. Then moved to drums for self pres I assume though I'm not sure at what exact point he made that vote. 

With that said it does feel like he's getting prep work done to go dice's way which in my eyes is a low hanging fruit and would be an ideal target as things stand. Dice isnt doing himself any favors but yeah.

There's so much personal stuff going in there with certain players that it's hard to make out much and he hasnt been involved much. Feels like it's a big joke to him. 

I'm def not town reading him but he seems more caught up with other things if that make sense.

I'll try to read up on him later if time allows and give better insight.

[Pac]

28 minutes ago, DPR said:

I’m seeing it the same way 

what is your read on Dandie now, and what did you think of JiF’s post?

Pardon me, sir.  Will you please divulge what your immediate next steps would be.

I think a viable strategy would be for us to do the exact opposite.

[Drums]

On 4/29/2020 at 11:34 AM, Nynaeve said:

You almost got ran up and you're voting for someone who was off your train?

You could be right about drums, I dunno. But I'm surprised this is what you're focusing on atm and under these circumstances.

Calling out AJ for voting me when I'm not on AJ's train

On 4/29/2020 at 11:36 AM, Nynaeve said:

@A.J., I will prolly join the drums train when we get close to DL. Because Drums hasn't done a lot. And it beats the other trains that formed that imo sucked. But I hope you know what you're doing.

Two minutes later ready to follow AJ to me

On 4/29/2020 at 12:46 PM, Nynaeve said:

unvote

vote drums

And does

On 4/29/2020 at 12:47 PM, Nynaeve said:

I don't want to vote Stark or JC.

I get this on D1 but Nyn was feeling really good about Stark on D1 if anyone would like to go back and read about it. Already pushing it with the amount of quotes I'm doing in this post.

19 hours ago, Nynaeve said:

Relevant tidbits from CTM's ISO

- talk about self hammer to avoid pac's hammer mummbo jumbo deal. Pretty null overall though I recall not being a huge fan att.
- hints that he has a none consequential slot when asked to reveal. Gets some crap for not willing to reveal or him asking the mod if it counts as a reveal. This was mostly nonsense imo. 
- Nolder nudges him some about the end of his reveal.
- Gets nudged a bit by DPR
- votes me irt my stance that idgaf who dandie is. Seemed like a load of crap to me. He soon backtracked from it.
- says he's suss of DPR
- unvotes me and votes Barry, while waving away dandie's train as insignificant.
- foses JC
- some back and forth with Barry irt dandie.
- unvotes votes DPR
- says he feels drums is a disinterested townie
- defends drums to AJ. Was kinda weird.
- 20 mins later AJ quotes a post of drums from Red Dawn and CTM votes drums. Pretty disgusting stuff.
- When Hess and 80 vote stark he quotes them both and foses 80 for following Hess' "omgus vote". votes 80.
- When conversing with Crusher he says he'll vote either 80 or DPR.
- Reasons for sussing DPR: past games, wanting ctm to reveal when he was at L-2, going after dandie. Kinda gross.
- eggs pac on when he foses AJ for his woe me this game is awful post. Feels like sideline nudges. Not a great look. Especially since he never actively goes after him himself.
- nudge at smash lurking
- gives a read list. pac town. feels better about DPR, worse about JC. AJ waffly. good on Arsis. 80 scum (says his vote on Stark is the scummiest thing he's seen).
- says he'll consolidate if need be cause of DL. Says he sees Stark is the vote leader but he's not sure why and says nothing he did was note worthy.
- willing to lynch 80, JC or JiF (first time he mentions him that I can see. Says he's not towntelling).
- about 10 hours later shows up saying he iso'd Stark. verdict is null. says he doesn't know why people are voting him. This might be the only time he actually metioned isoing a player, unless I missed it in my reread.
- votes JC after Stark's claim but says he's around to move his vote if need be. atp the competing trains are AJ vs JC.
- refers to Stark's claim, saying it's a bit tough to swallow and if someone who is familiar with the theme can elaborate.
- After JC's demise he says 80 and DPR look good. As well as Hess. for voting him even though they believed he was a bomb.
- When JiF questions Stark's claim, CTM says it fits with the content and that he wasn't comfortable lynching him near DL but on D2 it should be discussed.
- After the refrigerator deal gives a new read list. Feels bad about 80 surrounding Stark's lynch (???). feels better about JiF and drums. Worse about Nolder. Hess pings. Arsis townie.
- as he continues his catch up he says he likes drums, arsis, jif and aj for town. Smash null. top 3 for scum - nol, hess and 80.
- defends dpr as town vs dandie.
- questions DPR's claim that stark's claim is bull. suggests the failed attemped kill on N1 could have been on stark.
- starts to go back on his read on DPR a little bit. Says he's not willing to lynch a PR.
- says the whole dpr deal feels more like scum gambit then town play.
- questions Arsis on how DPR knew he was involved.
- he says he's leaning towards trusting DPR but doesn't actually cast a vote cause he think DPR believes what he says but isn't sure if it's actually true. Stark is at L-4 at this point.
- about 8 hours later once DPR says he knows for sure Stark lied in his claim, he votes him.
- says the questioning of the reveal could come from scum or town. but says 80 is the one that looks the least genuine.
- foses hess. eggs on barry to go after him (feels a bit sideliney again).
- foses 80 and says he doesn't get why stark was a scum read for 80 to begin with.
- votes 80. says hess should be next.

*****************************************************************************

Take away from this.

vote on me was bogus but early on. Otherwise he pretty much stayed clear of me (even though he doesn't offer a read on me going forward).

his 180 on drums and then back is weird. I didn't really get why he suddenly went back to town reading him. Though the reason he had for voting him wasn't really that good either.

there's a lot of flipfloping on hess and 80 too. I mean I can get developing reads but it's a bit convoluted. He started off not loving 80, then after JC got lynched he thought 80 and Hess looked good considering, then reverted to them being his top scum leans, along with Nolder's slot. And given Stark's flip this seems a bit odd to me. ie I would have expected him to factor it all in and I don't quite get where he's coming from.

He acts several times in ways to soft defend Stark. If by throwing around comments on how he doesn't get why that train even exists, fosing 80 for voting him for no real reason. eluding that stark was possibly the failed kill target N1, questioning his claim but at the same time not actively going there until DPR basically left him no choice. ie at that point it was a thunderdome between DPR and Stark.

He also has hardly no game related interaction with some players. Like dandie for instance, who he does defend at some point but doesn't actually try to actively resolve that I've seen. Pac and JiF he just writes off as town but I don't really see him digging into them. Same with me really. Same with Crusher on D1. Might be him avoiding the headache and wanting to get rid of that nuisance via NAs.

 

Honestly if he doesn't get his act together he can swing as far as I'm concerned. Cause the above doesn't look good.

This is a HUGE post and comes away that CTM doesn't look good. She's put in the work.

18 hours ago, Nynaeve said:

I said anticipating.

DPR pushed the lynch through the last phase. Also Dandie was already run up once. 

I just think his choice of a vote is very odd. He's voting someone who has him in his top three but not voting him atm.

Talking about me anticipating Dandie. Meh.

16 hours ago, Nynaeve said:

vote drums

I'll try to iso Barry tomorrow too. Also didn't care for his play so far. Would be interesting to see how he voted on D1 and D2.

So does not feel good about CTM, works hard to look into him, but comes away voting me because she didn't care for my play. 

15 hours ago, Nynaeve said:

I looked at his posts some and he did a 180 on drums too so that might be interesting pending on drums' flip.

Talking about Barry, and makes it sound like I was about to die (I wasn't that close)

1 hour ago, Nynaeve said:

I mean you would 100% be dead rn lmfao  but that's neither here nor there. Lets just say I'm the least of your worries if you're town.

Not feeling the same irt drums and barry myself. Maybe it's just me being petulant and stubborn. But I guess I'm  game to off CTM cause his iso didnt look great. My reluctance irt him btw is if I'm wrong that it's gonna cost us. Not pr worry just skill set wise. Hess I think is town or 3rd party. AVM I will have to iso later to see. Don't remember much from his stances.

Jvill im not sure off either. He sounds fine but he strikes me as a logical player and from personal experience it's not that hard to sound logical regardless of alignment.

Needed to throw that in just in case she's wrong because...

54 minutes ago, Nynaeve said:

unvote

vote ctm

 

Not sure how I feel about Nyn right now but I think overall, she posts A LOT but complains the thread is dumb and she has better things to do. Also makes many many posts about how confused she is or doesn't know what's going on when she's seems smart and a good player, also reads the thread pretty consistently. 

[Drums]

If you're on a phone, I apologize for that long ass post. 

[Gone]

I thought stark was town, yes. I said it several times. Thought JC was as well.

[Gone]

When the trains arent ideal and no one wants to go with who I want, and there needs to be consolidation I will tend to either stay out of it or go with someone who I think has pure intentions and might be seeing something I'm missing. AJ was dead set on you d1 and would not let it go. Like it wasnt a nudge, it was repeated proclamations on someone I didnt feel one way or the other about. I'd vote that any day over town leans. If my intent was to take attention away from stark I could have gone AJ or JC's way. I never did for the reasons I stated. 

[Gone]

10 minutes ago, Drums said:

Calling out AJ for voting me when I'm not on AJ's train

Two minutes later ready to follow AJ to me

And does

I get this on D1 but Nyn was feeling really good about Stark on D1 if anyone would like to go back and read about it. Already pushing it with the amount of quotes I'm doing in this post.

This is a HUGE post and comes away that CTM doesn't look good. She's put in the work.

Talking about me anticipating Dandie. Meh.

So does not feel good about CTM, works hard to look into him, but comes away voting me because she didn't care for my play. 

Talking about Barry, and makes it sound like I was about to die (I wasn't that close)

Needed to throw that in just in case she's wrong because...

Not sure how I feel about Nyn right now but I think overall, she posts A LOT but complains the thread is dumb and she has better things to do. Also makes many many posts about how confused she is or doesn't know what's going on when she's seems smart and a good player, also reads the thread pretty consistently. 

My feelings about the game being confusing was d1. We're on d3. So nice twisting.

I commented sometimes that the state of the thread wasn't to my liking but that's hardly the entirety of my content.

So kindly gfy

[Gone]

If you want to go at me bring it. But trust me when I say you wont be coming out of it on top. That much I can guarantee.