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NFL QB All-Time Hierarchy List (Thoughts?)


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2 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Farve is a Hall Of Famer and it was a great chance to get to the Super Bowl and give the biggest f-you to the Packers imaginable.  If you're inferring that Brett Favre tanked deliberately it makes no sense.

I don't know why on JN there is this aversion to accept the fact that players get hurt and it hurts the team.  I realize that in high school you are taught by gym teachers that "injuries aren't an excuse!" but enough already.  Injuries aren't an excuse-  in this case, they are a reason.

SAR I

Favre never wanted to be here and he played like it.  His only way to Minnesota was a stop here so he took it.  This was a guy busy talking to Lions players, giving them tips to bear GB week 2 rather than working on his new offense.

We saw what an engaged favre could do the next season in Minnesota.  He was motivated to beat the Packers, for us he was motivated to get to Minnesota to beat the Packers.

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Where is Joe Namath? I don't care about his lopsided numbers. He changed the spectrum in the NFL.  Tarkenton/Kelly over Namath? Both 3x 4x  losers respectively in SB. Pulllease.

I get that it is cool to be down on Namath, but if Bradshaw is there why the **** not Namath?  I don't think a single GM in the history of the planet would select Bradshaw over Namath.  All the statis

There is no objective answer to this.  But Brees has done everything Peyton and Brady have done in the same or less time except he won one less SB than Peyton (who didn't really 'win' his last one wit

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59 minutes ago, Bugg said:

When people badmouth Namath and Unitas, look at this boxscore from 1972. Namath at this point had had the crap beat out of him every week, and Unitas was about done. yet these guys hooked up and had a monster game like most QBs only dream about. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/197209240clt.htm

Namath healthy would have been a proto version of Marino.  Not with as good a release, but huge pocket passer who could get rid of the ball quickly against various modern blitzing defenses.  And Joe moved well enough the first few years before he's knees were beat to sh*t.  First QB to throw for 4,000 yards.  Hey!  Marino would have done the same thing back then.  Joe's problem was the surgery only gave him a certain amount of years.  And his play progressively suffered the more beatings he took.  But to bash Namath for lack of career length is stupid.  You have to look at peak career value as well as total accolades.  Unitas had a major hand injury but great later weapons that helped overcome his lack of arm strength.  Conditions of play is something huge to look at when comparing QB's of different eras.

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23 minutes ago, peebag said:

Put Brady and Manning on teams in the same era as Johnny Unitas and see how successful they would be.

Not very.

Johnny U was the man.

You compare players vs their era, great players would adapt to any era.  

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30 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Favre never wanted to be here and he played like it.  His only way to Minnesota was a stop here so he took it.  This was a guy busy talking to Lions players, giving them tips to bear GB week 2 rather than working on his new offense.

We saw what an engaged favre could do the next season in Minnesota.  He was motivated to beat the Packers, for us he was motivated to get to Minnesota to beat the Packers.

That's a charming myth, a great bedtime story.

He was 8-3.  He was fully engaged as a Jet, shouting at the sky after the big Patriots win.  He blew a tendon and couldn't throw.  He should have been benched but his head coach was to puss to do it.  So, again, bad luck with injuries ruined an otherwise good season, one that might have landed us in the Championship Game or Super Bowl.  Sucks, but it's not on Favre's attitude.  He simply got hurt.

SAR I

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28 minutes ago, pdxgreen said:

ut to bash Namath for lack of career length is stupid.

The guy knew the day he signed his pro contract that he had 3, maybe 4 years before his battered knees gave out.

And he ruined a season by attempting a tackle in a preseason game.  And he ruined another season by water skiing on two bad knees and gave himself two bad hamstrings.

I love Joe for his swagger and the AFL's Super Bowl.  But for his total career, sorry, the guy was downright insubordinate.  For a supposedly smart guy, he made some stupid decisions with his fragile body and cost us more than a few playoff appearances.

SAR I

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7 minutes ago, SAR I said:

That's a charming myth, a great bedtime story.

He was 8-3.  He was fully engaged as a Jet, shouting at the sky after the big Patriots win.  He blew a tendon and couldn't throw.  He should have been benched but his head coach was to puss to do it.  So, again, bad luck with injuries ruined an otherwise good season, one that might have landed us in the Championship Game or Super Bowl.  Sucks, but it's not on Favre's attitude.  He simply got hurt.

SAR I

The team was 8-3, mostly in spite of him.  They had the easiest schedule we've ever seen.

If we had 2009 favre in 2008 the SB was very realistic (though he choked in 07 & 09 NFC championship games) but we weren't going anywhere with the 2008 version that couldn't wait to leave to go to Minnesota.

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1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

 

The Jets lost in the AFC Championship Game in January of 1983, a few months later Ken O'Brien was drafted.  The Jets were loaded and young and the AFC was about to become crap.  Despite all this Ken didn't win a single playoff game but after being benched for the 1986 wild card game his backup did win a playoff game.

Ken is one of those guys Jets fans wildly overrate because they see some deep ball highlights on YouTube.  

 

Mark Sanchez did more for this franchise than Ken O'Brien.

 

Mark was known for INTs and in 6 full road playoff games threw only 3, Ken was known for not throwing INTs (he usually took a sack instead and people would blame his OL) and despite not playing 2 full playoff games (he played one full and parts of 2 others) he threw 4 INTs.

Obrien could out gun Marino, Lets see Sanchez try doing that.

And yes Pat Ryan was a good backup. Shows you that your backup needs to be able to run the offense not just hold a roster spot. This makes the Morgan pick make sense to me.

Pat Ryan, former Tennessee Volunteer. I know him well.

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28 minutes ago, SAR I said:

That's a charming myth, a great bedtime story.

He was 8-3.  He was fully engaged as a Jet, shouting at the sky after the big Patriots win.  He blew a tendon and couldn't throw.  He should have been benched but his head coach was to puss to do it.  So, again, bad luck with injuries ruined an otherwise good season, one that might have landed us in the Championship Game or Super Bowl.  Sucks, but it's not on Favre's attitude.  He simply got hurt.

SAR I

When?  When did he have this debilitating injury?  Find the answer without checking his sh*tty performance. 

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40 minutes ago, SAR I said:

The guy knew the day he signed his pro contract that he had 3, maybe 4 years before his battered knees gave out.

And he ruined a season by attempting a tackle in a preseason game.  And he ruined another season by water skiing on two bad knees and gave himself two bad hamstrings.

I love Joe for his swagger and the AFL's Super Bowl.  But for his total career, sorry, the guy was downright insubordinate.  For a supposedly smart guy, he made some stupid decisions with his fragile body and cost us more than a few playoff appearances.

SAR I

That's a invalid argument because his signing in NY made this whole franchise a viable option.  He was exactly what the AFL and the newly branded, former Titans need.  His career value was worth more than somebody who played longer but couldn't fill that role.  Obviously they committed to him longer than they should.  But it's like Sandy Koufax... he's in for those six years.  Not the potential he didn't realize.

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38 minutes ago, SAR I said:

The guy knew the day he signed his pro contract that he had 3, maybe 4 years before his battered knees gave out.

And he ruined a season by attempting a tackle in a preseason game.  And he ruined another season by water skiing on two bad knees and gave himself two bad hamstrings.

I love Joe for his swagger and the AFL's Super Bowl.  But for his total career, sorry, the guy was downright insubordinate.  For a supposedly smart guy, he made some stupid decisions with his fragile body and cost us more than a few playoff appearances.

SAR I

I am forever enraged that Namath didn't play every other game like SB III. He had a great D and 2 great RBs. All he had to do was not make stupid, risky decisions and THOSE Jet teams would have been multiple SB champions. 

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58 minutes ago, TNJet said:

Obrien could out gun Marino, Lets see Sanchez try doing that.

And yes Pat Ryan was a good backup. Shows you that your backup needs to be able to run the offense not just hold a roster spot. This makes the Morgan pick make sense to me.

Pat Ryan, former Tennessee Volunteer. I know him well.

Sanchez outgunned Brady in the playoffs on the road.

It's great O'Brien could outgun Marino but what about the rest of the league? 

Back then it was easier to have a quality backup, in the FA era you can't have a career backup like Ryan or strick because they'd get signed somewhere to start. The Jets were really lucky to have Pat Ryan.

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28 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

And Brady IS in Tier 1. Yet, Bradshaw, who did none of those things, is somehow Tier 4? 

Bradshaw's team was loaded with steroid users, is that not cheating?

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16 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Bradshaw's team was loaded with steroid users, is that not cheating?

Not knocking Bradshaw to simply note he had an all time surrounding cast. As far as roids go though, in the 1970s there was a lot of better living through chemistry. Steelers were hardly alone. 

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Just now, Bugg said:

Not knocking Bradshaw to simply note he had an all time surrounding cast. As far as roids go though, in the 1970s there was a lot of better living through chemistry. Steelers were hardly alone. 

No doubt, I do think they put too many guys in the Hall but those teams were loaded in the pre free agency era.

Bradshaw was able to win in many ways, early on running and later throwing.  I think he gets knocked because of the great D which I believe  makes him underrated.  

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19 hours ago, Warfish said:

Seems fine, but does Kurt Warner belong up there really?  Maybe he does I guess.

No real complaint.  

He had a short, but amazing career.

2 MVP's.  Super Bowl MVP.  3 SB appearances.  3 amazing SB games, in all 3 the last time he touched the ball his team was tied or winning.

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2 minutes ago, chirorob said:

He had a short, but amazing career.

2 MVP's.  Super Bowl MVP.  3 SB appearances.  3 amazing SB games, in all 3 the last time he touched the ball his team was tied or winning.

Kurt is very underrated.  He took 2 of the wise franchises in the sport to super bowls and won one.  He had some injuries which shortened his career but he was GREAT.

In SL the Rams last playoff win was the flipper Anderson game in 1989(that was the year if their last playoff app). After him that made 2 playoff apps before 2017. He led them to 2 SBs and 1 SB win.

In Ari they had TWO all time playoff wins and ONE since 1948. He brought them within one of the greatest drives in SB history of a championship.

2 league MVPs which is as many as Joe Montana and more than Dan Marino and John elway.

He was a great QB that unfortunately didn't play very long.  Give me a Warner over others who get a bump being not as great but playing longer

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There are only two qbs that imo deserve to be in tier1, and thats Brady and Montana.  They are a good step beyond every other qb on that list, and its not close.

Now, I have a bit of a problem with some of the rest of the rankings.  The usual overrating of Brett Favre.  Ok, anyone that seriously takes Favre over Rogers has to have their head examined.

There is the usual undervaluing of Steve Young (people forget how good that guy was, he just happened to play behind one of the GOATs and had his career shortened b/c of it) and frankly Russel Wilson is also perpetually undervalued for some reason.

And then theres the Manning/Brees dilemma (and imo they were both equal in terms of Qbing).  That is that they both played with the most ridiculously stacked teams on offense in history, in domes and super favorable offensive conditions and that despite their regular season dominance, they would typically fall short in the playoffs.  Still top10, but a little perspective...

And then there is the recency bias.  B/c Otto Graham and Unitas could both legitimately be tier1 based on dominance and impact, but we have to discount them b/c of the talent level in those eras.  Hard cases.

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2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

When?  When did he have this debilitating injury?  Find the answer without checking his sh*tty performance. 

One week later, the Jets whooped Jeff Fisher’s 10-0 Tennessee Titans in Nashville. Favre had led the Jets to 8-3 and created the most exciting team in recent franchise history. Then the tires fell off.

During the final stretch of the season, Favre tore a tendon in his biceps that turned his rocket arm into a noodle. With his legendary consecutive-starts streak still intact, Favre kept playing, but he underthrew receivers regularly and racked up nine interceptions and just two touchdowns to go with a 55.2 quarterback rating in his final five games. A 13-3 loss in a snowy Week 16 game against an underperforming Seattle team was the low point. After going 8-3 through 12 weeks, the Jets dropped three of their next four games and lost control of the AFC East as Favre’s play plummeted. Years later, at his Hall of Fame induction in 2016, Favre told the Newsday that he “was doing more harm than good” for the team and that he should have sat rather than continue his consecutive-starts streak.

“At one point, I wanted to remove myself from playing, because I would throw it over there and it would end up over there,” he said in 2016.

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2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

When?  When did he have this debilitating injury?  Find the answer without checking his sh*tty performance. 

Favre was asked if his season in New York was a "wasted" year. He replied by mentioning his injury, saying he probably should've been replaced -- a stunning comment. At the time, he had a 15-year iron-man streak.

"Well, I threw six touchdowns in one game -- yippee," Favre said. "It’s the only time I ever did it. But I’ll say this -- and I’m not an excuse guy -- but before I tore my bicep I was playing pretty good and we were 9-3, I think, and not hitting on all cylinders. But I thought there was tremendous upside. I think our last good game was against New England on a Thursday night in New England, which we won, and I played really well.

"It went downhill from there as the bicep got progressively worse, which ultimately ended up in surgery. I would have liked to have seen how it ended up had I not had a torn bicep, because at one point I wanted to remove myself from playing, because I’d throw it over there and it would end up over there. I just felt like the value of what a quarterback does -- there’s a higher value to that because you handle the ball every time -- and I felt like I was doing more harm than good.

"Then when I look at that year, that’s my regret, that maybe I didn’t just remove myself from it all together. I mentioned that to [head coach] Eric Mangini and [offensive coordinator] Brian Schottenheimer. I don’t know if they realized the magnitude of the injury. I just hate knowing and thinking that much of those losses were the result of my lack of being able to make plays. That’s what I think about that season -- what could have been."

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2 hours ago, pdxgreen said:

That's a invalid argument because his signing in NY made this whole franchise a viable option.  He was exactly what the AFL and the newly branded, former Titans need.  His career value was worth more than somebody who played longer but couldn't fill that role.  Obviously they committed to him longer than they should.  But it's like Sandy Koufax... he's in for those six years.  Not the potential he didn't realize.

If you want to only focus on the good side of Joe Namath, have at it.  But there's a bad side of Joe Namath and though the Super Bowl makes it easy to sweep under the rug, remember that the vaunted Shula Dolphins of the 70's only won 2 Super Bowls; if Namath took care of himself and stopped the drinking, the partying, the dumb tackling, and the stupid water skiing he could have won 3 and prevented the Dolphins getting 2.  The Jets would be in the conversation of 'dynasties' instead of a fluke AFL upset.

SAR I

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15 minutes ago, SAR I said:

One week later, the Jets whooped Jeff Fisher’s 10-0 Tennessee Titans in Nashville. Favre had led the Jets to 8-3 and created the most exciting team in recent franchise history. Then the tires fell off.

During the final stretch of the season, Favre tore a tendon in his biceps that turned his rocket arm into a noodle. With his legendary consecutive-starts streak still intact, Favre kept playing, but he underthrew receivers regularly and racked up nine interceptions and just two touchdowns to go with a 55.2 quarterback rating in his final five games. A 13-3 loss in a snowy Week 16 game against an underperforming Seattle team was the low point. After going 8-3 through 12 weeks, the Jets dropped three of their next four games and lost control of the AFC East as Favre’s play plummeted. Years later, at his Hall of Fame induction in 2016, Favre told the Newsday that he “was doing more harm than good” for the team and that he should have sat rather than continue his consecutive-starts streak.

“At one point, I wanted to remove myself from playing, because I would throw it over there and it would end up over there,” he said in 2016.

Again with the ******* wikipedia research.   This is like Terrell Owens 4.45 40 yard dash.  A fallacy.  He supposedly was injured well before the Titans game.  "The final stretch of the season" is not a time.  If a "tendon popped" or he "tore his biceps" he would ******* remember.  That isn't a hang nail.  He was also worse against Oakland than he was against Seattle, but that came during that hallowed part of the season where you mutts think we were super bowl contenders.  Brett Favre has always been an inconsistent choke artist.  No reason to think an injury caused it here.

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14 minutes ago, ageingjetfan said:

Does anyone think that John Hadle and Dan Fouts and possibly Lamonica has a place somewhere on this list?

I never thought that highly of Hadl and I don't really remember him at all, but Fouts and Lamonica belong on a list of guys that I would take over 5-10 of these "all-time greats." 

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2 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Bradshaw's team was loaded with steroid users, is that not cheating?

All of the linemen were juicing back then. But, winning a superbowl is hard, very hard. And he won 4! Also, as always, the QB is the most important piece to any SB championship. An occasional Defensive Juggernaut wins in spite of their QB play. But 4! C'mon Man, get real!  

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2 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

All of the linemen were juicing back then. But, winning a superbowl is hard, very hard. And he won 4! Also, as always, the QB is the most important piece to any SB championship. An occasional Defensive Juggernaut wins in spite of their QB play. But 4! C'mon Man, get real!  

They kept trying to replace Bradshaw with guys like Junior Gilliam and calling him him dumb or stupid until they remembered he did something incredibly well.  He won. He did enough when needed and he didn't throw games away. Won four superbowls. Guys try to put Eli in the hall for winning two. he should find a place on the list.

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5 hours ago, Bronx said:

We can make the same argument about Eli Manning who won two of them.

Eli while not being top elite, still was a very very good qb. He beat the Pats and ruined their chance at football immortality.  But he wasn’t in same class as Namath. 

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4 hours ago, SAR I said:

That's a charming myth, a great bedtime story.

He was 8-3.  He was fully engaged as a Jet, shouting at the sky after the big Patriots win.  He blew a tendon and couldn't throw.  He should have been benched but his head coach was to puss to do it.  So, again, bad luck with injuries ruined an otherwise good season, one that might have landed us in the Championship Game or Super Bowl.  Sucks, but it's not on Favre's attitude.  He simply got hurt.

SAR I

You keep throwing around 8-3 like it is an undefeated season.  That included wins against the 4-11 Bengals, 2-14 Rams, 2-14 Chiefs, 7-9 Bills, the Dolphins with Pennington on the team for 3 weeks, in overtime against the Matt Cassel Patriots and a Cardinal team making the long flight and coming east for a 1 pm start for the 2nd week in a row (their 3rd road game in the 4 week season).   The Cards actually lost to a crappy Jim Zorn/Jason Campbell Redskin team the week prior.  

Favre was so engaged as a Jet that they lost at home to the Pats in Cassel's first start, put up 13 in an OT loss against the 5-11 Raiders and were absolutely demolished by the "playoff" Chargers who finished 8-8.

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41 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

All of the linemen were juicing back then. But, winning a superbowl is hard, very hard. And he won 4! Also, as always, the QB is the most important piece to any SB championship. An occasional Defensive Juggernaut wins in spite of their QB play. But 4! C'mon Man, get real!  

I think Bradshaw is underrated

13 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

Eli while not being top elite, still was a very very good qb. He beat the Pats and ruined their chance at football immortality.  But he wasn’t in same class as Namath. 

He didn't beat the pats, his team did.  There are a million QBs who could have won those games when his D held NE to 14 & 17 points.

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1 hour ago, Hael said:

There are only two qbs that imo deserve to be in tier1, and thats Brady and Montana.  They are a good step beyond every other qb on that list, and its not close.

Now, I have a bit of a problem with some of the rest of the rankings.  The usual overrating of Brett Favre.  Ok, anyone that seriously takes Favre over Rogers has to have their head examined.

There is the usual undervaluing of Steve Young (people forget how good that guy was, he just happened to play behind one of the GOATs and had his career shortened b/c of it) and frankly Russel Wilson is also perpetually undervalued for some reason.

And then theres the Manning/Brees dilemma (and imo they were both equal in terms of Qbing).  That is that they both played with the most ridiculously stacked teams on offense in history, in domes and super favorable offensive conditions and that despite their regular season dominance, they would typically fall short in the playoffs.  Still top10, but a little perspective...

And then there is the recency bias.  B/c Otto Graham and Unitas could both legitimately be tier1 based on dominance and impact, but we have to discount them b/c of the talent level in those eras.  Hard cases.

You can't discount off of talent level, well I guess you can.  

Look at in another way.   Less teams, less dilution of talent per team.   No modern training/weight room/nutrition/medical.   Look at the hits those QBs took in the 50s and 60s vs today.  I'd argue Brady on those team, on those fields, with those rules wouldn't have lasted past the age of 30.

To me, it's about who dominated an era.   Unitas was the best QB in the game for a prolonged period, and when he retired he owned every record, and had won World Championships against the premier defense of his era.   There is also a modern bias because, quite simply, there isn't a lot of game film of those players in those eras.

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5 hours ago, SAR I said:

Joe Namath went out partying the night before the AFL Championship Game and played it hung over.  

Joe Namath went water skiing while recovering from knee surgery and ruptured both his hamstrings.  

Joe Namath launched his upper body into a tackle after a bad interception in a preseason game and cost the Jets the season.  

I could go on.  Mark Sanchez didn’t do a single selfish thing as a Jet.  Great team player.  They threw him under the bus multiple times and he took it like a man. 

SAR I

Man, for you to compare Sanchez to Namath, and opine that he was actually a better QB, you lose all the credibility that you may have had on this site. You really can't believe that.

giphy.gif

 

 

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