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THE BARON

Darnold's Skill Set To Gase's System...

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Darnold's Skill Set To Gase's System Is A Square Peg To A Round Hole...

This needs to be looked at and discussed "scientifically".  

The way I see it, this is the key issue involving the Jets and their future.  As of right now, I *REALLY* don't think too many fans see and understand the critical significance of this issue.  The usual defenders of Gase chime in with the same old commentary that misses the larger point totally. 

We all know they Jets had a poor offensive line.  We all know the Jets had limited weapons.  NONE of that is germane this discussion.  Such a defense only demonstrates ignorance in the face of the larger point.  That point being, Sam Darnold's unique skill set it at odds with the offensive system that Adam Gase is addicted to.  This does not bode well for the Jets.  Not only will it be a general impediment to overall offensive production, but it threatens the future of Sam Darnold's career with the Jets.  How long has it been since the Jets had a bona fied potential franchise QB ??? Does everyone grasp just how hard it is to acquire one ???  You cant just dial 1-800-quarterback.  It is an enormously rare asset to come across and it is the absolute KEY to building a winning team.  Well... Now the Jets have one.  And guess what ???  With the system Gase is hell bent to run, a VERY rare and very special potential franchise QB is at risk of being flushed down the toiled by an inept HC/OC.

Lets go over the nuts and bolts...

First, lets have a look at Sam's skill set.

1. Sam can pass from the pocket, but I think we all agree his clear strengths are ability to move in the pocket and move with a shifting pocket.  It allows him to extend the pays, survey the field and wait for opportunities.  When those opportunities present themselves in the form of a pass catcher coming open, we all see that Sam can get the ball to the pass catcher regardless of the position or condition that Sam is in.  He can throw from all angles and hit the target.  Few QB's can do that.  Those are skills that you need to take advantage of or it is a waste of material.  An offense that encourages and aids such a QB is an offensive system that is predicated on aggressive man blocking by the line along with regular line shifts.  You move the pocket itself, and let Darnold move with it.  Such a scheme is also VERY good to take advantage of both play action and a RB that excels when he can be patient, use his field vision, pick his opportunities and exploit them.  A RB just like Bell... 

Now on to the offense that Gase runs.

1. Zone blocking by the offensive line

2. Static Pocket

3. Four basic pass plays all predicated on pre-snap read by QB to identify most probable target and hot pass rusher, disciplined rout running, precise timing, pinpoint accuracy with ball placement and ball delivery 2.5 to 2.8 seconds is expected. 

And add to that mix.  The ball carrier you want in the Gase system is a deliberate, powerful straight ahead runner.  The OPPOSITE skill set of Bell, who just so happens to be under a very expensive contract for three more years... 

Are you getting all this ??? Do you understand what I am getting at ???

Respond to this with "WELL... Um... DUHHH... GASE didn't have a good offensive line last year so, lets give him a chance"  and I will award you with the grand title... Idiot Head Of The Year...

My only hope to save Sam's future with the Jets is the hope that JD is not beholden in any way to Gase and he promotes Gase out of NY for 2021.  

I cant be any clearer than that.  

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4 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

Darnold's Skill Set To Gase's System Is A Square Peg To A Round Hole...

This needs to be looked at and discussed "scientifically".  

The way I see it, this is the key issue involving the Jets and their future.  As of right now, I *REALLY* don't think too many fans see and understand the critical significance of this issue.  The usual defenders of Gase chime in with the same old commentary that misses the larger point totally. 

We all know they Jets had a poor offensive line.  We all know the Jets had limited weapons.  NONE of that is germane this discussion.  Such a defense only demonstrates ignorance in the face of the larger point.  That point being, Sam Darnold's unique skill set it at odds with the offensive system that Adam Gase is addicted to.  This does not bode well for the Jets.  Not only will it be a general impediment to overall offensive production, but it threatens the future of Sam Darnold's career with the Jets.  How long has it been since the Jets had a bona fied potential franchise QB ??? Does everyone grasp just how hard it is to acquire one ???  You cant just dial 1-800-quarterback.  It is an enormously rare asset to come across and it is the absolute KEY to building a winning team.  Well... Now the Jets have one.  And guess what ???  With the system Gase is hell bent to run, a VERY rare and very special potential franchise QB is at risk of being flushed down the toiled by an inept HC/OC.

Lets go over the nuts and bolts...

First, lets have a look at Sam's skill set.

1. Sam can pass from the pocket, but I think we all agree his clear strengths are ability to move in the pocket and move with a shifting pocket.  It allows him to extend the pays, survey the field and wait for opportunities.  When those opportunities present themselves in the form of a pass catcher coming open, we all see that Sam can get the ball to the pass catcher regardless of the position or condition that Sam is in.  He can throw from all angles and hit the target.  Few QB's can do that.  Those are skills that you need to take advantage of or it is a waste of material.  An offense that encourages and aids such a QB is an offensive system that is predicated on aggressive man blocking by the line along with regular line shifts.  You move the pocket itself, and let Darnold move with it.  Such a scheme is also VERY good to take advantage of both play action and a RB that excels when he can be patient, use his field vision, pick his opportunities and exploit them.  A RB just like Bell... 

Now on to the offense that Gase runs.

1. Zone blocking by the offensive line

2. Static Pocket

3. Four basic pass plays all predicated on pre-snap read by QB to identify most probable target and hot pass rusher, disciplined rout running, precise timing, pinpoint accuracy with ball placement and ball delivery 2.5 to 2.8 seconds is expected. 

And add to that mix.  The ball carrier you want in the Gase system is a deliberate, powerful straight ahead runner.  The OPPOSITE skill set of Bell, who just so happens to be under a very expensive contract for three more years... 

Are you getting all this ??? Do you understand what I am getting at ???

Respond to this with "WELL... Um... DUHHH... GASE didn't have a good offensive line last year so, lets give him a chance"  and I will award you with the grand title... Idiot Head Of The Year...

My only hope to save Sam's future with the Jets is the hope that JD is not beholden in any way to Gase and he promotes Gase out of NY for 2021.  

I cant be any clearer than that.  

bring it on.  the fact that the jets team improved over the last half of the season pretty much ruins your argument.  how did that happen if gase is so married to one offensive scheme?  he isn't and proved it.  that's how the team finished 6-2.  and the 1-7 start was just as much about darnold not being up to full strength after having mono as much as it is about the bad oline.

i have a feeling you are going to be plenty surprised this season.

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12 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Joe Flacco was built for Gases system. If he wasnt already injured, boy I tell ya!

Flacco would be a better match, but not exactly a good match for Gase's offense.  Flacco is a long baller.  The year the Ravens won the Super Bowl Flacco went on the heater of all heaters.  He did most of the damange with the long ball.  JF is really not the guy you want throwing a lot of quick slants, hitches, curls and so on.  You want to put JF in an offense that features smash mouth running game that causes the second and third level of the defense to come up.  Then, Joe can hit on the long ball once in a while.  It is a compliment to Ravens style defense.  It shows that that the Ravens GM and coaches understood what they had on hand and how do develop their total vision of a comprehensive team.  Complimentary football in all respects.  The offensive system compliments what the QB does best.  The defense compliments the style of offense.... 

For a Gase offense, you want a healthy Peyton Manning or Tom Brady.  A QB that thrives off of throwing quick short and intermediate length passes from a static pocket.

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1 minute ago, Beerfish said:

Gases's system appears to be have a 37 year old hof QB who runs the whole offense.

Other than that the results of his system has been about the worst in the whole NFL over the last 4 years.

The number of players that were good before or after their time with Gase who were not 'good fits' for his system is growing very fast.

THANK YOU...  You see it.  It was MANNING's success.  Gase thinks it will be "his* successes again... And with a QB that has the opposite skill set as Manning... 

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17 minutes ago, rangerous said:

bring it on.  the fact that the jets team improved over the last half of the season pretty much ruins your argument.  how did that happen if gase is so married to one offensive scheme?  

Easy and obvious answer for you.  The Jets seemed to get well... But.  The got well on the worst teams in the league.   I truly wish you confidence was well founded, but to my agony, I know you are way off the mark... I like Joe Douglas and I like Greg Williams.  I have faith in them that comes from their performance.  I have zero faith in Gase.  Quite the contrary.   Gase is a team killer. 

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12 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't think there are any successful offensive systems based on designing plays that have a quarterback extend plays with his feet, survey the field and then pass to an undisciplined route runner from off platform.  

There are systems that are much better for pocket passers and systems that are much better for mobile/running QB's.  That is football 101

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56 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Definitely looks like science

It is.  An example of unscientific would be "Um... Gase only had one year so far.  Um... Duh... They didn't have a line... Err... Lets stop with all the negativity" 

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P Manning, T Tebow, Cutler, Tannehill, Moore, all the same apparently all play the same way.  

Hate to break it to you but Sam is perfectly suited to this style of offense.  

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16 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't think there are any successful offensive systems based on designing plays that have a quarterback extend plays with his feet, survey the field and then pass to an undisciplined route runner from off platform.  

At the risk of offending the poster... If you don't realize that different systems are much better suited for different types of QB's, you don't know the basics.  

If Tom Brady or Peyton manning was your QB would you run a wish bone ??? 

Why not ??? By your reasoning, there is no cause to illustrate the compelling differences in a QB's skill set nor are there any standards to illustrate in respective offensive systems....

 

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4 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

It is.  An example of unscientific would be "Um... Gase only had one year so far.  Um... Duh... They didn't have a line... Err... Lets stop with all the negativity" 

And let's uh, talk about zone blocking ruining Adams pass plays

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Square peg round hole went 6-2 down the stretch.

I'll take 12-4 thanks.

SAR I

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16 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

And let's uh, talk about zone blocking ruining Adams pass plays

Zone blocking on its own does not ruin pass plays.  I didn't make that assertion nor would I ever do so.   That post above is a useless fragment.  Instead of looking to win an argument for the sake of it by using the tactics of child, try to take in and digest the big picture.  All the moving parts in synergy.  

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10 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

I dont necessarily disagree, but I also dont necessarily agree with this thinking.  

First point:  Yes gase needs to change things up slightly, which I think we saw a little bit later in the season of putting Darnold on the move more.  Rolls outs and Play action have to be a bigger part of the offense going forward as it is where Darnold will thrive. 

          Two things I believe contributed to the lack of this last year:  A lack of athletic lineman that could block on the edge and keep the pocket stable and move with Darnold on a roll out.  And a lack of an effective running game.  

This concept of moving the pocket and getting Sam on the move to make throws and take advantage of his athleticism is not anything foreign, however is difficult to implement consistently when you are rotating lineman every week, have week athleticism to effectively pass block on roll out protection, and have a lack of a running game to use to create flow in the opposite direction. 

Second point:  I would argue that Sams skill set actually works well in a Gase short to intermediate passing concepts.  Sam's strength aside from his ability to move inside and outside of the pocket is that he is a much more accurate passer in the short to intermediate game. Sam can have a lot of success in this style of offense, and it is one that works really well with again a strong running game and play action.  Example, look at what the 49ers did this year with Jimmy G off play action and WR's running short crossings and intermediate in breaking routes.  When you go back the route concepts are similar to what Gase used a lot last year, and it is something that Sam can really excel at.  

         When you look at the issues last year in this area you see a few things.  One being that WR's had a hard time getting open on these intermediate routes consistently.  Consistency is actually the biggest factor here, as nothing synced up.  When a WR did manage to get open, the pass rush was in instantly.  When Sam had time... Wr's were smothered by pressed DB's and man coverage.  The lack of any real threat on the outside allowed teams to single up defenders and stack boxes against the jets. 

Also the amount of penalties taken on first down (addressed now by a more competent offensive line) allows for the flow of the offense to be better.  It is hard to take advantage of play action and intermediate passing concepts when you are routinely at 1 & 20 or 2 & 15.   

 

So while your point is well taken that yes saying that injuries and lack of talent doesn't tell the full story of why the offense struggled, it is absolutely something to factor in when considering certain points of interest in the offense.  I fully expect to see a better version of this offense this year. 

The question I have with Gase is not whether his offensive scheme fits Darnold, but rather is he the Play Caller situationally that can take the offense to another level being one step ahead.  Right now you can point to several teams as having real difference makers as play callers in the NFL (shanahan, payton, greg roman are 3 of the best at setting up their plays). Offensive schemes at the NFL level dont vary a ton from team to team, base concepts are very similar and then the philosophy of the coaches influence is the variation you would interpret as their scheme.  In that regard I believe this fits Sam well (a zone scheme coupled with a short to intermediate passing game, setting up certain shots during the game).   So for me, this year I am looking to see how Gase calls games, and if the increased talent allows  him to set up an offensive flow better than last year when it was difficult to do so and he struggled greatly at times.  

Excellent and refreshing.  All good points.  Also agree on what appeared to be questionable play calling.  Gase's play calling looked like what I call a shoebox offense.  He has a shoebox full of play cards and pulls them out randomly rather than intelligently building a drive.  It all goes hand in hand with a lack of vision and a lack of orchestrating the big picture with all the moving parts working in synergy.

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3 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

I don’t agree with your opinion.

First, Bell can be cut next year. So the three year argument is flawed.

With regards to Sam, stats say otherwise. He’s most productive throwing from a clean pocket to the short to intermediate space. This was the case in college as well. Putting Sam in a vertical offense would be more of a square peg round hole argument. Luckily, Gase’s offense which is a mix of different systems mostly asks the QB to get the ball out quickly. A Stefanski type offense where 2 TEs are heavily utilized is probably best. But Gase’s system is not too far off. A Bruce Arians type of offense would likely be a square peg round hole situation.

Yep.  He can be cut.  And Gase is just the HC to cast off the goose that laid the golden egg because he has NO CLUE how to cash in on it. 

And as for Gase system, it worked when Peyton Manning was the defacto OC and Gase looked like he had something to do with it.  Gase has fragments that he calls a system

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47 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

It is.  An example of unscientific would be "Um... Gase only had one year so far.  Um... Duh... They didn't have a line... Err... Lets stop with all the negativity" 

you keep believing that science will solve gase for you.  i gotta a bridge in nyc to sell you.  i'm not sure there are any teams that rely on things like sabermetrics to assess their teams.  and if they do, i doubt any have been successful.  why?  because the nfl is all about emotion and it's not like baseball where there is basically and batter going against a pitcher.  there is only a limited place the ball is going and it's not like there are 11 other guys trying to take the head off of the ball carrier.

i would love to see a study that correlates whatever data the nfl gets during the combine get really translated into the future success of a player.

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Just now, rangerous said:

you keep believing that science will solve gase for you.  i gotta a bridge in nyc to sell you.  i'm not sure there are any teams that rely on things like sabermetrics to assess their teams.  and if they do, i doubt any have been successful.  why?  because the nfl is all about emotion and it's not like baseball where there is basically and batter going against a pitcher.  there is only a limited place the ball is going and it's not like there are 11 other guys trying to take the head off of the ball carrier.

i would love to see a study that correlates whatever data the nfl gets during the combine get really translated into the future success of a player.

A good point in there.  A team is more than numbers, systems and stats.  A lot more.  Agree fully.  Gase or no Gase...

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51 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

And let's uh, talk about zone blocking ruining Adams pass plays

FYI... If am wrong and the Jets have a reasonably productive and consistent offense, I will be available and standing tall for you to throw rotten fruit at me all season long... 

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1 hour ago, THE BARON said:

Zone blocking on its own does not ruin pass plays.  I didn't make that assertion nor would I ever do so.   That post above is a useless fragment.  Instead of looking to win an argument for the sake of it by using the tactics of child, try to take in and digest the big picture.  All the moving parts in synergy.  

Dude the entire theory that Darnold doesn’t fit this offense is pure fantasy.  
 

And you want to go into name calling now because someone doesn’t agree with your assertion?  You do this all the time.  You don’t like Gase, I get it.  Hone in on his weaknesses, there are more than a few.  That Darnold is a square peg in a round hole is wrong

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3 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

FYI... If am wrong and the Jets have a reasonably productive and consistent offense, I will be available and standing tall for you to throw rotten fruit at my all season long... 

And none of that would prove you’re argument one way or another

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2 hours ago, THE BARON said:

Darnold's Skill Set To Gase's System Is A Square Peg To A Round Hole...

This needs to be looked at and discussed "scientifically".  

The way I see it, this is the key issue involving the Jets and their future.  As of right now, I *REALLY* don't think too many fans see and understand the critical significance of this issue.  The usual defenders of Gase chime in with the same old commentary that misses the larger point totally. 

We all know they Jets had a poor offensive line.  We all know the Jets had limited weapons.  NONE of that is germane this discussion.  Such a defense only demonstrates ignorance in the face of the larger point.  That point being, Sam Darnold's unique skill set it at odds with the offensive system that Adam Gase is addicted to.  This does not bode well for the Jets.  Not only will it be a general impediment to overall offensive production, but it threatens the future of Sam Darnold's career with the Jets.  How long has it been since the Jets had a bona fied potential franchise QB ??? Does everyone grasp just how hard it is to acquire one ???  You cant just dial 1-800-quarterback.  It is an enormously rare asset to come across and it is the absolute KEY to building a winning team.  Well... Now the Jets have one.  And guess what ???  With the system Gase is hell bent to run, a VERY rare and very special potential franchise QB is at risk of being flushed down the toiled by an inept HC/OC.

Lets go over the nuts and bolts...

First, lets have a look at Sam's skill set.

1. Sam can pass from the pocket, but I think we all agree his clear strengths are ability to move in the pocket and move with a shifting pocket.  It allows him to extend the pays, survey the field and wait for opportunities.  When those opportunities present themselves in the form of a pass catcher coming open, we all see that Sam can get the ball to the pass catcher regardless of the position or condition that Sam is in.  He can throw from all angles and hit the target.  Few QB's can do that.  Those are skills that you need to take advantage of or it is a waste of material.  An offense that encourages and aids such a QB is an offensive system that is predicated on aggressive man blocking by the line along with regular line shifts.  You move the pocket itself, and let Darnold move with it.  Such a scheme is also VERY good to take advantage of both play action and a RB that excels when he can be patient, use his field vision, pick his opportunities and exploit them.  A RB just like Bell... 

Now on to the offense that Gase runs.

1. Zone blocking by the offensive line

2. Static Pocket

3. Four basic pass plays all predicated on pre-snap read by QB to identify most probable target and hot pass rusher, disciplined rout running, precise timing, pinpoint accuracy with ball placement and ball delivery 2.5 to 2.8 seconds is expected. 

And add to that mix.  The ball carrier you want in the Gase system is a deliberate, powerful straight ahead runner.  The OPPOSITE skill set of Bell, who just so happens to be under a very expensive contract for three more years... 

Are you getting all this ??? Do you understand what I am getting at ???

Respond to this with "WELL... Um... DUHHH... GASE didn't have a good offensive line last year so, lets give him a chance"  and I will award you with the grand title... Idiot Head Of The Year...

My only hope to save Sam's future with the Jets is the hope that JD is not beholden in any way to Gase and he promotes Gase out of NY for 2021.  

I cant be any clearer than that.  

First of all, calm down with the preemptive insults.

Second, you bring up great points. However, I look at this as a positive. If you put a gun to Joe D's head and told him to choose between gase and darnold, you'll be seeing gase caddy for manning on "The Match III"

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1 hour ago, THE BARON said:

There are systems that are much better for pocket passers and systems that are much better for mobile/running QB's.  That is football 101

Some of those systems you speak of are a good way to get your QB's knees crushed.  

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20 minutes ago, rangerous said:

i would love to see a study that correlates whatever data the nfl gets during the combine get really translated into the future success of a player.

For pass rushers the data is indisputable:  Measurables and athleticism matter.  A lot.  

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40 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

Excellent and refreshing.  All good points.  Also agree on what appeared to be questionable play calling.  Gase's play calling looked like what I call a shoebox offense.  He has a shoebox full of play cards and pulls them out randomly rather than intelligently building a drive.  It all goes hand in hand with a lack of vision and a lack of orchestrating the big picture with all the moving parts working in synergy.

Again, yes it does seem like that at times.  However, having been in the role of a play caller myself, I know the extreme difficulty it can be to develop any coherent looking play calling plan when the team is consistently in a hole score wise, behind in D&DST, or effectively shut down in one phase of the offense.   So while I am skeptical of Gase ability to call plays, I can't sit here and just throw a blanket of criticism on him, there are just too many factors that play into this for it to be so cut and dry.  Hence why I think this year will really give a more clear picture as to what we are looking at.  

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5 minutes ago, win4ever said:

Lol,

Establish opinions as fact.

Cite these aforementioned facts.

Now, use these facts to form a narrative.

Hit post.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

You’re not a science person.

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