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Darnold's Skill Set To Gase's System...

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Darnold's Skill Set To Gase's System Is A Square Peg To A Round Hole...

This needs to be looked at and discussed "scientifically".  

The way I see it, this is the key issue involving the Jets and their future.  As of right now, I *REALLY* don't think too many fans see and understand the critical significance of this issue.  The usual defenders of Gase chime in with the same old commentary that misses the larger point totally. 

We all know they Jets had a poor offensive line.  We all know the Jets had limited weapons.  NONE of that is germane this discussion.  Such a defense only demonstrates ignorance in the face of the larger point.  That point being, Sam Darnold's unique skill set it at odds with the offensive system that Adam Gase is addicted to.  This does not bode well for the Jets.  Not only will it be a general impediment to overall offensive production, but it threatens the future of Sam Darnold's career with the Jets.  How long has it been since the Jets had a bona fied potential franchise QB ??? Does everyone grasp just how hard it is to acquire one ???  You cant just dial 1-800-quarterback.  It is an enormously rare asset to come across and it is the absolute KEY to building a winning team.  Well... Now the Jets have one.  And guess what ???  With the system Gase is hell bent to run, a VERY rare and very special potential franchise QB is at risk of being flushed down the toiled by an inept HC/OC.

Lets go over the nuts and bolts...

First, lets have a look at Sam's skill set.

1. Sam can pass from the pocket, but I think we all agree his clear strengths are ability to move in the pocket and move with a shifting pocket.  It allows him to extend the pays, survey the field and wait for opportunities.  When those opportunities present themselves in the form of a pass catcher coming open, we all see that Sam can get the ball to the pass catcher regardless of the position or condition that Sam is in.  He can throw from all angles and hit the target.  Few QB's can do that.  Those are skills that you need to take advantage of or it is a waste of material.  An offense that encourages and aids such a QB is an offensive system that is predicated on aggressive man blocking by the line along with regular line shifts.  You move the pocket itself, and let Darnold move with it.  Such a scheme is also VERY good to take advantage of both play action and a RB that excels when he can be patient, use his field vision, pick his opportunities and exploit them.  A RB just like Bell... 

Now on to the offense that Gase runs.

1. Zone blocking by the offensive line

2. Static Pocket

3. Four basic pass plays all predicated on pre-snap read by QB to identify most probable target and hot pass rusher, disciplined rout running, precise timing, pinpoint accuracy with ball placement and ball delivery 2.5 to 2.8 seconds is expected. 

And add to that mix.  The ball carrier you want in the Gase system is a deliberate, powerful straight ahead runner.  The OPPOSITE skill set of Bell, who just so happens to be under a very expensive contract for three more years... 

Are you getting all this ??? Do you understand what I am getting at ???

Respond to this with "WELL... Um... DUHHH... GASE didn't have a good offensive line last year so, lets give him a chance"  and I will award you with the grand title... Idiot Head Of The Year...

My only hope to save Sam's future with the Jets is the hope that JD is not beholden in any way to Gase and he promotes Gase out of NY for 2021.  

I cant be any clearer than that.  

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12 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Joe Flacco was built for Gases system. If he wasnt already injured, boy I tell ya!

Flacco would be a better match, but not exactly a good match for Gase's offense.  Flacco is a long baller.  The year the Ravens won the Super Bowl Flacco went on the heater of all heaters.  He did most of the damange with the long ball.  JF is really not the guy you want throwing a lot of quick slants, hitches, curls and so on.  You want to put JF in an offense that features smash mouth running game that causes the second and third level of the defense to come up.  Then, Joe can hit on the long ball once in a while.  It is a compliment to Ravens style defense.  It shows that that the Ravens GM and coaches understood what they had on hand and how do develop their total vision of a comprehensive team.  Complimentary football in all respects.  The offensive system compliments what the QB does best.  The defense compliments the style of offense.... 

For a Gase offense, you want a healthy Peyton Manning or Tom Brady.  A QB that thrives off of throwing quick short and intermediate length passes from a static pocket.

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1 minute ago, Beerfish said:

Gases's system appears to be have a 37 year old hof QB who runs the whole offense.

Other than that the results of his system has been about the worst in the whole NFL over the last 4 years.

The number of players that were good before or after their time with Gase who were not 'good fits' for his system is growing very fast.

THANK YOU...  You see it.  It was MANNING's success.  Gase thinks it will be "his* successes again... And with a QB that has the opposite skill set as Manning... 

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17 minutes ago, rangerous said:

bring it on.  the fact that the jets team improved over the last half of the season pretty much ruins your argument.  how did that happen if gase is so married to one offensive scheme?  

Easy and obvious answer for you.  The Jets seemed to get well... But.  The got well on the worst teams in the league.   I truly wish you confidence was well founded, but to my agony, I know you are way off the mark... I like Joe Douglas and I like Greg Williams.  I have faith in them that comes from their performance.  I have zero faith in Gase.  Quite the contrary.   Gase is a team killer. 

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12 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't think there are any successful offensive systems based on designing plays that have a quarterback extend plays with his feet, survey the field and then pass to an undisciplined route runner from off platform.  

There are systems that are much better for pocket passers and systems that are much better for mobile/running QB's.  That is football 101

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56 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Definitely looks like science

It is.  An example of unscientific would be "Um... Gase only had one year so far.  Um... Duh... They didn't have a line... Err... Lets stop with all the negativity" 

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16 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't think there are any successful offensive systems based on designing plays that have a quarterback extend plays with his feet, survey the field and then pass to an undisciplined route runner from off platform.  

At the risk of offending the poster... If you don't realize that different systems are much better suited for different types of QB's, you don't know the basics.  

If Tom Brady or Peyton manning was your QB would you run a wish bone ??? 

Why not ??? By your reasoning, there is no cause to illustrate the compelling differences in a QB's skill set nor are there any standards to illustrate in respective offensive systems....

 

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16 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

And let's uh, talk about zone blocking ruining Adams pass plays

Zone blocking on its own does not ruin pass plays.  I didn't make that assertion nor would I ever do so.   That post above is a useless fragment.  Instead of looking to win an argument for the sake of it by using the tactics of child, try to take in and digest the big picture.  All the moving parts in synergy.  

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10 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

I dont necessarily disagree, but I also dont necessarily agree with this thinking.  

First point:  Yes gase needs to change things up slightly, which I think we saw a little bit later in the season of putting Darnold on the move more.  Rolls outs and Play action have to be a bigger part of the offense going forward as it is where Darnold will thrive. 

          Two things I believe contributed to the lack of this last year:  A lack of athletic lineman that could block on the edge and keep the pocket stable and move with Darnold on a roll out.  And a lack of an effective running game.  

This concept of moving the pocket and getting Sam on the move to make throws and take advantage of his athleticism is not anything foreign, however is difficult to implement consistently when you are rotating lineman every week, have week athleticism to effectively pass block on roll out protection, and have a lack of a running game to use to create flow in the opposite direction. 

Second point:  I would argue that Sams skill set actually works well in a Gase short to intermediate passing concepts.  Sam's strength aside from his ability to move inside and outside of the pocket is that he is a much more accurate passer in the short to intermediate game. Sam can have a lot of success in this style of offense, and it is one that works really well with again a strong running game and play action.  Example, look at what the 49ers did this year with Jimmy G off play action and WR's running short crossings and intermediate in breaking routes.  When you go back the route concepts are similar to what Gase used a lot last year, and it is something that Sam can really excel at.  

         When you look at the issues last year in this area you see a few things.  One being that WR's had a hard time getting open on these intermediate routes consistently.  Consistency is actually the biggest factor here, as nothing synced up.  When a WR did manage to get open, the pass rush was in instantly.  When Sam had time... Wr's were smothered by pressed DB's and man coverage.  The lack of any real threat on the outside allowed teams to single up defenders and stack boxes against the jets. 

Also the amount of penalties taken on first down (addressed now by a more competent offensive line) allows for the flow of the offense to be better.  It is hard to take advantage of play action and intermediate passing concepts when you are routinely at 1 & 20 or 2 & 15.   

 

So while your point is well taken that yes saying that injuries and lack of talent doesn't tell the full story of why the offense struggled, it is absolutely something to factor in when considering certain points of interest in the offense.  I fully expect to see a better version of this offense this year. 

The question I have with Gase is not whether his offensive scheme fits Darnold, but rather is he the Play Caller situationally that can take the offense to another level being one step ahead.  Right now you can point to several teams as having real difference makers as play callers in the NFL (shanahan, payton, greg roman are 3 of the best at setting up their plays). Offensive schemes at the NFL level dont vary a ton from team to team, base concepts are very similar and then the philosophy of the coaches influence is the variation you would interpret as their scheme.  In that regard I believe this fits Sam well (a zone scheme coupled with a short to intermediate passing game, setting up certain shots during the game).   So for me, this year I am looking to see how Gase calls games, and if the increased talent allows  him to set up an offensive flow better than last year when it was difficult to do so and he struggled greatly at times.  

Excellent and refreshing.  All good points.  Also agree on what appeared to be questionable play calling.  Gase's play calling looked like what I call a shoebox offense.  He has a shoebox full of play cards and pulls them out randomly rather than intelligently building a drive.  It all goes hand in hand with a lack of vision and a lack of orchestrating the big picture with all the moving parts working in synergy.

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3 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

I don’t agree with your opinion.

First, Bell can be cut next year. So the three year argument is flawed.

With regards to Sam, stats say otherwise. He’s most productive throwing from a clean pocket to the short to intermediate space. This was the case in college as well. Putting Sam in a vertical offense would be more of a square peg round hole argument. Luckily, Gase’s offense which is a mix of different systems mostly asks the QB to get the ball out quickly. A Stefanski type offense where 2 TEs are heavily utilized is probably best. But Gase’s system is not too far off. A Bruce Arians type of offense would likely be a square peg round hole situation.

Yep.  He can be cut.  And Gase is just the HC to cast off the goose that laid the golden egg because he has NO CLUE how to cash in on it. 

And as for Gase system, it worked when Peyton Manning was the defacto OC and Gase looked like he had something to do with it.  Gase has fragments that he calls a system

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Just now, rangerous said:

you keep believing that science will solve gase for you.  i gotta a bridge in nyc to sell you.  i'm not sure there are any teams that rely on things like sabermetrics to assess their teams.  and if they do, i doubt any have been successful.  why?  because the nfl is all about emotion and it's not like baseball where there is basically and batter going against a pitcher.  there is only a limited place the ball is going and it's not like there are 11 other guys trying to take the head off of the ball carrier.

i would love to see a study that correlates whatever data the nfl gets during the combine get really translated into the future success of a player.

A good point in there.  A team is more than numbers, systems and stats.  A lot more.  Agree fully.  Gase or no Gase...

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51 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

And let's uh, talk about zone blocking ruining Adams pass plays

FYI... If am wrong and the Jets have a reasonably productive and consistent offense, I will be available and standing tall for you to throw rotten fruit at me all season long... 

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41 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Dude the entire theory that Darnold doesn’t fit this offense is pure fantasy.  
 

And you want to go into name calling now because someone doesn’t agree with your ridiculous assertion?  You do this all the time.  You don’t like Gase, I get it.  Hone in on his weaknesses, there are more than a few.  That Darnold is a square peg in a round hole is wrong

 

3 minutes ago, Il Mostro said:

Bro+Do+You+Even+Science_.png

You are labeling me a "name caller". That is quite an indictment coming from the person that began with the name calling.  I only engage in full contact posting when others encourage it.  Your response to my evaluation  in an earlier thread was met by your response that saw you call me "NOSTRADAMOS".  That preceded any chiding that you got from me.  If you like to interact like a gentleman and a sportsman, than try to be one... 

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I can see how you would prefer to hedge your bets in this case.  I am correct about my assessment of Darnold and Gase.   Rather than have to admit it later on, you can always blame Gase's bottom of the barrel offensive production on any reason that you find handy. 

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39 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Some of those systems you speak of are a good way to get your QB's knees crushed.  

Playing football at is a good way to get just about any part of your body crushed.  That includes all levels of football and all positions.  

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53 minutes ago, Sammybighead said:

First of all, calm down with the preemptive insults.

 

Ug… I keep forgetting that this forum is tailored for Archie and Jughead.  I'll dial it down so as not to trigger any of the more sensitive folks...  

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5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Known statue Peyton Manning never had his knees crushed.  

The risk is significantly lower if you stay in the pocket.  Especially under the new rules designed to protect the QB more than ever before.

It may very well have been his knees and not his neck.  It can happen to a stature QB or a running QB.  Any system.  Any player.  

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1 minute ago, TNJet said:

Give me Darnold and let me call the plays this year: top 5 in the nfl in scoring offense. 30.5 pts per game avg.

Give Gase Darnold and let him call the plays this year: bottom 5 in the league in scoring. 15.7 ppg.

Gase sucks.

Probably accurate... 

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1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Do you not understand probabilities?

100 % probability that injuries will occur.  100 % probability that all positions can experience injury.  100 % probability that any body part can be injured playing football.  That even includes having a bad hair day... 

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4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

A simple "No, I don't understand probabilities" would have sufficed.

Carry on.

Tom Brady... Pocket Passer.   KNEE INJURY..  Carson Palmer.  Pocket passer.  KNEE INJURY.  

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1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

Sam Darnold is a more effective QB rolling out and making plays. 

Gase would take russel wilson and lamar jackson and make them pocket passers.

It comes down to what does the QB do best and how can i make an offense to suit him.

Making Darnold a pocket passer is limiting his effectiveness.

 

Im glad you get it...

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1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

I believe that football 101 is "Low man wins." 

You're worried about offending me?  If I don't respond in five minutes will you quote me another few times?

My reasoning is that the positives you are quoting for Darnold are things that mainly matter when the play breaks down.  They don't help you devise a scheme.  Other than moving the pocket, which of your suggestions is specific to Darnold?  It would be nice to have a decent running game.  I don't understand why Darnold needs one more than any other QB, or Gase specifically a deliberate straight ahead runner.  

Darnold is not a running QB.  He is a bit mobile and can extend plays/employees.   The way to help him is to have successful plays and then let him work his magic on the ones that don't work.  You don't predicate an offense on a QB's ability to throw from any arm angle.

Finally, you should know this from your other identities, but repping your own posts is sad and pathetic.   

 

"sad and pathetic"

How banal... 

And I don't agree with your post above, because it is not cogent.  You don't seem to grasp what every competent and successful administrator knows.  Operations are designed around the strengths of your players.  A QB's ability to move, throw on the move and think on the move are not reserved for the times "the play breaks down".  

If that is your reasoning, you don't belong in this argument...

Your lack of cognitive reasoning is "sad and pathetic" 

 

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1 hour ago, 14 in Green said:

For the last 6 months I've been reading where people here point to Sam's last 8 games, talk about the numbers he put up in them as proof that he is an elite Franchise QB.

My question to you is... 

Who's offense was Darnold running at that time? 

Sam's numbers were not very impressive during any part of the season.  In the back half of the season they won more games, but that was due to the low quality of the competition.  What we saw from Sam were demonstrations of special ability.  Put him in an offense that is better suited to his skill set and add in intelligent play calling and we'll probably see consistently impressive play from Sam.  

Need I remind anyone here of a certain QB going to a certain HC/OC and requesting that the offense go through a few changes ???

That is not only compelling, it is an absolute matter of record.   No supposition there and it speaks directly to the larger point of form following function.  

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17 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

What part of that assessment is inaccurate?  It's like you're masterbating all over a message board. 

"Oh god look at this point I just made.  Such a good point, oh yeah."

I'm taking lessons.  From Jamal 

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4 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:
15 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

Sam's numbers were not very impressive during any part of the season.  image.thumb.jpeg.3ecc2a3912d7cd10ea39c28e015ffc8f.jpeg
 

And, amazingly, still with the effects of mono and worse, an offense he’s not suited to run. 

You can dig out some good numbers, but for 2019 Sam was only 25th in total QBR.   Not blaming Sam.  There were plenty of issues including coaching.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr

 

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1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

Yeah those pesky good numbers that fly on the face of what you said are so annoying.  I gave you the last 8 games.  You said at no time were his numbers impressive.  A 22 year old, 2nd year QB with a little over a year of experience on a team devoid of offensive talent.  When not rushed even better.  And still The point is proven that you were wrong.  

No one gives a shlt about QBR.  Other than ESPN it’s pointless enough, never mind the whole season

Right. Your stats are significant, but the ones I refer to are BS.  Have a look at the QB's at the top of the QBR totem pole and then look at the ones at the bottom with Sam.  

Here are a few more BS numbers for you to put in your pocket.

Passing Leaders

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/stats?season=2019&week=100&category=PASSING&sortOrder=0&page=1

TD's

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/stats?season=2019&week=100&category=SCORING

WOW... HOF Performance by Sam.  It must be that brilliant VERY ABSOLUTE LAST in the league Adam Gase offense.

 

 

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14 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

I don’t agree with you about Gase, but I’ve got to admit, you’re doing a great job keeping this thread a lot more entertaining, and definitely more interesting than the Adams threads we’ve been inundated with here lately. Plus you’re ruffling a few feathers while doing it, which is something I always like to see. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Nice job Baron...

Thank you... I endeavor to get a little orange juice.  Like Parcells said... "What do you get when you squeeze an orange ??? You get orange juice"  

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14 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

You said he didnt play well in ANY PART OF THE SEASON.  

ANY.  

We know the season on a whole was poor.  I dont need lists.  He was sick, he missed time and then he played better.  Much better.  Read what I posted.  Sorry it kills your narrative.  As wrong as it is because he played well over the last 8 games, no matter how many different ways you say it.  

Your words, eat them and stop already, every part of this thread is wrong.  Sam Darnold never was and never will be a running QB.  Hes a pocket passer who can get out and move around, run if he has to.  Hes like Wentz and others, hes not Russell Wilson or Allen.  

WOW...HOF performance, who said this?  Anyone?  Other than you? OMG, you thread started badly and just keeps getting worse.  

 

 

My point is spot on.  You don't want to admit it.  Remember... I am not knocking Sam.  This post is about Gase and his propensity to jam square pegs into round holes.  Sam showed he has talent.  Special talent.  However, never were his numbers league leading as you suggest they were by picking a few stats out of the comprehensive numbers in order to support your point.  

Bottom line.  The Jets offense was dead last in overall production last year and it was GASE'S fault.  Blame it on the line if you like, but it was ALL GASE.  He does not know how best to use Sam (until Sam gave him a clue) and he DEFINATELY blew Bell's potential contribution STRAIGHT OUT OF HISS ASS...

Yield to the facts.

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14 hours ago, 20andOut said:

Stopped reading at the "either you agree with me or you are ignorant" opening

I don't get it ??? I give this group commentary and prognostication of a sublime quality you will see nowhere else and this is how you reciprocate ??? 

You can lead a horse to water but you cant make the horse drink... 

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12 hours ago, UnknownJetFan said:

Of the 7 wins we beat Dallas, Pitt, and the Raiders all of which would have been playoff teams had we not beaten them. Also, games like the Giants are not easy due to the cross town rivalry.

Dallas didn't take the Jets seriously, the Raiders had to travel to the east coast which is usually a killer and the Pittsburg game was won by a very good performance by the defense.  The offense did little to nothing vs the Steelers

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11 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

When it comes to the Jets we shouldn’t need numbers to know who’s good and who isn’t.  Stats are interesting and can helpful to understand players you don’t watch every week.  But we all watch this team a lot and have likely seen virtually every play.

There are some things that are very clear to anyone that paid attention ...

1) Gase did NOT use Sam’s strengths to his advantage. It’s very obvious.

2) Sam is exceptionally talented and can be special if given the opportunity 

3) The Jets offense was decimated with injuries to an already talent deficient roster.  

Bottom line, Sam ran into the trifecta of badness and still was solid...The worst OL in the league, the worst weapons in the league and the worst offensive coaching in the league.  Two of the three have been improved, but nothing we can do about Gase until CJ comes to his senses.

 

 

 

Agree 100 %.  Sam was flashing his very special talents all season long despite circumstances.  Greg Williams was also masterful considering injuries and lack of manpower at CB and on the edge.

The roster was indeed a limiting factor, but that was not nearly enough of a smoke screen not to realize just how inept GASE is.

The figured it out in Miami.  Even the fan boys here will get it through their thick skulls by the end of this season.

I am hopeful that JD will be on the job and will do the right thing.

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11 hours ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Maybe it's already been said, but anyone who thinks a "straight ahead, power runner" is the ideal fit for a zone blocking scheme doesn't know much about zone blocking based run game.

That is not what I said.  It is a convenient argument for you to make, but you are taking a fragment of what I said and distorting what was an accurate point.  Where did you learn that tactic ??? Harvard Law ???

For the uneducated and the *third rate wanna-be lawyers* among us, you can run smash mouth with zone blocking or man blocking, or a combination of both like Bill Callahan did when he was the line coach with the Jets under Rex. 

I'm always up for having my line of reasoning scrutinized and argued, but please be accurate and honest.  Anything else is a waste of band with for the sake of getting a chance to swing your sack around. 

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11 hours ago, Mogglez said:

Easily one of the dumbest threads all off-season, and that is saying something.

OP using Total QBR to make another stupid point is the cherry on top of this sh*t sundae.

I show you quality and what do you do ??? This ?!?!?! Well..  I, never !!!

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3 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Bottom line, youre wrong, everyone has pointed out how wrong you are.  And most telling you this are not fans of Gase.  Sometimes its just the players and not  theories like zone blocking requires a straight ahead power back and won't work with Darnold because that's just not true 

I hate to say it, but... There you go again...

You state EVERYONE has pointed out I am wrong ??? That is a fallacious statement. 

If you go back and read the entire thread you will see that others do in fact agree with me.  So did/do all the learned fans that were VOCALLY and VISIBLY calling for GEASE'S head this past season.  

1. Gase does not know what to do best with Darnold.  And for that matter, Bell.

It is a very simple point ant I supported it with a lot of quality.

You like Gase, fine... You don't see what I see.  Fine.   

But I'm right :-) 

Wanna know what we will both see at the end of the 2020 season ???

Gase gets promoted out of NY by JD.  

Book it.

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11 hours ago, BUM-KNEE said:

Exactly.

The utter arrogance of the original post is epicly assinine. Its quite shocking actually.

It was provocative, eh ???

Do you have an opinion or any thoughts on the matter or was the original post too *SHOCKING* to digest ???

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