Darnold's Skill Set To Gase's System...

[Beerfish]

[Jet Nut]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Some of those systems you speak of are a good way to get your QB's knees crushed.  

The idea that there aren't offenses suited to running QBs, ala LJackson and for a pure pocket passer like todays Brady is basic.  Thinking Darnold is a running QB confusing escapability/mobility with a running QBs game is the issue

[THE BARON]

41 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Dude the entire theory that Darnold doesn’t fit this offense is pure fantasy.  
 

And you want to go into name calling now because someone doesn’t agree with your ridiculous assertion?  You do this all the time.  You don’t like Gase, I get it.  Hone in on his weaknesses, there are more than a few.  That Darnold is a square peg in a round hole is wrong

 

3 minutes ago, Il Mostro said:

You are labeling me a "name caller". That is quite an indictment coming from the person that began with the name calling.  I only engage in full contact posting when others encourage it.  Your response to my evaluation  in an earlier thread was met by your response that saw you call me "NOSTRADAMOS".  That preceded any chiding that you got from me.  If you like to interact like a gentleman and a sportsman, than try to be one... 

[THE BARON]

I can see how you would prefer to hedge your bets in this case.  I am correct about my assessment of Darnold and Gase.   Rather than have to admit it later on, you can always blame Gase's bottom of the barrel offensive production on any reason that you find handy. 

[THE BARON]

39 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Some of those systems you speak of are a good way to get your QB's knees crushed.  

Playing football at is a good way to get just about any part of your body crushed.  That includes all levels of football and all positions.  

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, THE BARON said:

Playing football at is a good way to get just about any part of your body crushed.  That includes all levels of football and all positions.  

Known statue Peyton Manning never had his knees crushed.  

The risk is significantly lower if you stay in the pocket.  Especially under the new rules designed to protect the QB more than ever before.

[THE BARON]

53 minutes ago, Sammybighead said:

First of all, calm down with the preemptive insults.

 

Ug… I keep forgetting that this forum is tailored for Archie and Jughead.  I'll dial it down so as not to trigger any of the more sensitive folks...  

[TNJet]

Give me Darnold and let me call the plays this year: top 5 in the nfl in scoring offense. 30.5 pts per game avg.

Give Gase Darnold and let him call the plays this year: bottom 5 in the league in scoring. 15.7 ppg.

Gase sucks.

[THE BARON]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Known statue Peyton Manning never had his knees crushed.  

The risk is significantly lower if you stay in the pocket.  Especially under the new rules designed to protect the QB more than ever before.

It may very well have been his knees and not his neck.  It can happen to a stature QB or a running QB.  Any system.  Any player.  

[THE BARON]

1 minute ago, TNJet said:

Give me Darnold and let me call the plays this year: top 5 in the nfl in scoring offense. 30.5 pts per game avg.

Give Gase Darnold and let him call the plays this year: bottom 5 in the league in scoring. 15.7 ppg.

Gase sucks.

Probably accurate... 

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, THE BARON said:

It may very well have been his knees and not his neck.  It can happen to a stature QB or a running QB.  Any system.  Any player.  

Do you not understand probabilities?

[slimjasi]

50 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

For pass rushers the data is indisputable:  Measurables and athleticism matter.  A lot.  

To your point, how many elite pass rushers aren't elite (or near elite) athletes?

I honestly can't think of any. 

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

To your point, how many elite pass rushers aren't elite (or near elite) athletes?

I honestly can't think of any. 

If Yannick Ngakoue can prove his 12-sack season wasn't a fluke, he'd be an outlier.  My money is on his productivity not being sustainable.

[THE BARON]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Do you not understand probabilities?

100 % probability that injuries will occur.  100 % probability that all positions can experience injury.  100 % probability that any body part can be injured playing football.  That even includes having a bad hair day... 

[#27TheDominator]

2 hours ago, THE BARON said:

For a Gase offense, you want a healthy Peyton Manning or Tom Brady.  A QB that thrives off of throwing quick short and intermediate length passes from a static pocket.

We get it.  You don't like Gase.  There is nothing in his style that requires a HOF QB.  I don't think there is any OC/HC/GM in the NFL that doesn't want a healthy Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. 

Darnold should certainly thrive at throwing shot and intermediate passes and the "static pocket"  goes with the quick.  It is difficult to be quick and take the time to move the pocket. 

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, THE BARON said:

100 % probability that injuries will occur.  100 % probability that all positions can experience injury.  100 % probability that any body part can be injured playing football.  That even includes having a bad hair day... 

A simple "No, I don't understand probabilities" would have sufficed.

Carry on.

[JohnnyLV]

3 hours ago, THE BARON said:

Darnold's Skill Set To Gase's System Is A Square Peg To A Round Hole...

This needs to be looked at and discussed "scientifically".  

The way I see it, this is the key issue involving the Jets and their future.  As of right now, I *REALLY* don't think too many fans see and understand the critical significance of this issue.  The usual defenders of Gase chime in with the same old commentary that misses the larger point totally. 

We all know they Jets had a poor offensive line.  We all know the Jets had limited weapons.  NONE of that is germane this discussion.  Such a defense only demonstrates ignorance in the face of the larger point.  That point being, Sam Darnold's unique skill set it at odds with the offensive system that Adam Gase is addicted to.  This does not bode well for the Jets.  Not only will it be a general impediment to overall offensive production, but it threatens the future of Sam Darnold's career with the Jets.  How long has it been since the Jets had a bona fied potential franchise QB ??? Does everyone grasp just how hard it is to acquire one ???  You cant just dial 1-800-quarterback.  It is an enormously rare asset to come across and it is the absolute KEY to building a winning team.  Well... Now the Jets have one.  And guess what ???  With the system Gase is hell bent to run, a VERY rare and very special potential franchise QB is at risk of being flushed down the toiled by an inept HC/OC.

Lets go over the nuts and bolts...

First, lets have a look at Sam's skill set.

1. Sam can pass from the pocket, but I think we all agree his clear strengths are ability to move in the pocket and move with a shifting pocket.  It allows him to extend the pays, survey the field and wait for opportunities.  When those opportunities present themselves in the form of a pass catcher coming open, we all see that Sam can get the ball to the pass catcher regardless of the position or condition that Sam is in.  He can throw from all angles and hit the target.  Few QB's can do that.  Those are skills that you need to take advantage of or it is a waste of material.  An offense that encourages and aids such a QB is an offensive system that is predicated on aggressive man blocking by the line along with regular line shifts.  You move the pocket itself, and let Darnold move with it.  Such a scheme is also VERY good to take advantage of both play action and a RB that excels when he can be patient, use his field vision, pick his opportunities and exploit them.  A RB just like Bell... 

Now on to the offense that Gase runs.

1. Zone blocking by the offensive line

2. Static Pocket

3. Four basic pass plays all predicated on pre-snap read by QB to identify most probable target and hot pass rusher, disciplined rout running, precise timing, pinpoint accuracy with ball placement and ball delivery 2.5 to 2.8 seconds is expected. 

And add to that mix.  The ball carrier you want in the Gase system is a deliberate, powerful straight ahead runner.  The OPPOSITE skill set of Bell, who just so happens to be under a very expensive contract for three more years... 

Are you getting all this ??? Do you understand what I am getting at ???

Respond to this with "WELL... Um... DUHHH... GASE didn't have a good offensive line last year so, lets give him a chance"  and I will award you with the grand title... Idiot Head Of The Year...

My only hope to save Sam's future with the Jets is the hope that JD is not beholden in any way to Gase and he promotes Gase out of NY for 2021.  

I cant be any clearer than that.  

 

 

[JustInFudge]

Idiot Head of the Year is actually a pretty kick ass title.

[BUM-KNEE]

9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Do you not understand probabilities?

No just fantasy science

[THE BARON]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

A simple "No, I don't understand probabilities" would have sufficed.

Carry on.

Tom Brady... Pocket Passer.   KNEE INJURY..  Carson Palmer.  Pocket passer.  KNEE INJURY.  

[Losmeister]

1 hour ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

he extreme difficulty it can be to develop any coherent looking play calling plan when the team is consistently in a hole score wise, behind in D&DST, or effectively shut down in one phase of the offense.   So while I am skeptical of Gase ability to call plays, I can't sit here and just throw a blanket of criticism on him, there are just too many factors that play into this for it to be so cut and dry.  Hence why I think this year will really give a more clear picture as to what we are looking at.  

thanks Chebet...    took the words outta my mouth...

[Jetsfan80]

13 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

Tom Brady... Pocket Passer.   KNEE INJURY..  Carson Palmer.  Pocket passer.  KNEE INJURY.  

Those are called "outliers", and its telling that you had to all the way back to 2008 to find a significant QB injury while the QB was in the pocket.  

Daunte Culpepper, Michael Vick, RG3, and Cam Newton all say hello.  And Aaron Rodgers' 2017 season-ending collarbone injury happened while....you guessed it....he scrambled out of the pocket trying to extend the play.

 

 

 

In addition stuff like this is far more likely to happen when your QB scrambles:

 

 

[Beerfish]

Sam Darnold is a more effective QB rolling out and making plays. 

Gase would take russel wilson and lamar jackson and make them pocket passers.

It comes down to what does the QB do best and how can i make an offense to suit him.

Making Darnold a pocket passer is limiting his effectiveness.

 

[#27TheDominator]

2 hours ago, THE BARON said:

There are systems that are much better for pocket passers and systems that are much better for mobile/running QB's.  That is football 101

I believe that football 101 is "Low man wins." 

2 hours ago, THE BARON said:

At the risk of offending the poster... If you don't realize that different systems are much better suited for different types of QB's, you don't know the basics.  

If Tom Brady or Peyton manning was your QB would you run a wish bone ??? 

Why not ??? By your reasoning, there is no cause to illustrate the compelling differences in a QB's skill set nor are there any standards to illustrate in respective offensive systems....

 

You're worried about offending me?  If I don't respond in five minutes will you quote me another few times?

My reasoning is that the positives you are quoting for Darnold are things that mainly matter when the play breaks down.  They don't help you devise a scheme.  Other than moving the pocket, which of your suggestions is specific to Darnold?  It would be nice to have a decent running game.  I don't understand why Darnold needs one more than any other QB, or Gase specifically a deliberate straight ahead runner.  

Darnold is not a running QB.  He is a bit mobile and can extend plays.  The way to help him is to have successful plays and then let him work his magic on the ones that don't work.  You don't predicate an offense on a QB's ability to throw from any arm angle.

Finally, you should know this from your other identities, but repping your own posts is sad and pathetic.   

 

[68JET11]

1 hour ago, Sammybighead said:

First of all, calm down with the preemptive insults.

Second, you bring up great points. However, I look at this as a positive. If you put a gun to Joe D's head and told him to choose between gase and darnold, you'll be seeing gase caddy for manning on "The Match III"

I believe that is the exact reason JD held out for a 6 year contract... I believe he will one day have to make a decision on Gase. I for one want to see better play calling from Gase this year, and if I see a stubborn person who can't adjust his game plan on the fly then I will expect JD to handle the situation. We need an Offensive mind that will know how to get the best out of Sam. 

[68JET11]

1 hour ago, Sammybighead said:

First of all, calm down with the preemptive insults.

Second, you bring up great points. However, I look at this as a positive. If you put a gun to Joe D's head and told him to choose between gase and darnold, you'll be seeing gase caddy for manning on "The Match III"

I believe that is the exact reason JD held out for a 6 year contract... I believe he will one day have to make a decision on Gase. I for one want to see better play calling from Gase this year, and if I see a stubborn person who can't adjust his game plan on the fly then I will expect JD to handle the situation. We need an Offensive mind that will know how to get the best out of Sam. 

[14 in Green]

2 hours ago, THE BARON said:

Darnold's Skill Set To Gase's System Is A Square Peg To A Round Hole...

This needs to be looked at and discussed "scientifically".  

The way I see it, this is the key issue involving the Jets and their future.  As of right now, I *REALLY* don't think too many fans see and understand the critical significance of this issue.  The usual defenders of Gase chime in with the same old commentary that misses the larger point totally. 

We all know they Jets had a poor offensive line.  We all know the Jets had limited weapons.  NONE of that is germane this discussion.  Such a defense only demonstrates ignorance in the face of the larger point.  That point being, Sam Darnold's unique skill set it at odds with the offensive system that Adam Gase is addicted to.  This does not bode well for the Jets.  Not only will it be a general impediment to overall offensive production, but it threatens the future of Sam Darnold's career with the Jets.  How long has it been since the Jets had a bona fied potential franchise QB ??? Does everyone grasp just how hard it is to acquire one ???  You cant just dial 1-800-quarterback.  It is an enormously rare asset to come across and it is the absolute KEY to building a winning team.  Well... Now the Jets have one.  And guess what ???  With the system Gase is hell bent to run, a VERY rare and very special potential franchise QB is at risk of being flushed down the toiled by an inept HC/OC.

Lets go over the nuts and bolts...

First, lets have a look at Sam's skill set.

1. Sam can pass from the pocket, but I think we all agree his clear strengths are ability to move in the pocket and move with a shifting pocket.  It allows him to extend the pays, survey the field and wait for opportunities.  When those opportunities present themselves in the form of a pass catcher coming open, we all see that Sam can get the ball to the pass catcher regardless of the position or condition that Sam is in.  He can throw from all angles and hit the target.  Few QB's can do that.  Those are skills that you need to take advantage of or it is a waste of material.  An offense that encourages and aids such a QB is an offensive system that is predicated on aggressive man blocking by the line along with regular line shifts.  You move the pocket itself, and let Darnold move with it.  Such a scheme is also VERY good to take advantage of both play action and a RB that excels when he can be patient, use his field vision, pick his opportunities and exploit them.  A RB just like Bell... 

Now on to the offense that Gase runs.

1. Zone blocking by the offensive line

2. Static Pocket

3. Four basic pass plays all predicated on pre-snap read by QB to identify most probable target and hot pass rusher, disciplined rout running, precise timing, pinpoint accuracy with ball placement and ball delivery 2.5 to 2.8 seconds is expected. 

And add to that mix.  The ball carrier you want in the Gase system is a deliberate, powerful straight ahead runner.  The OPPOSITE skill set of Bell, who just so happens to be under a very expensive contract for three more years... 

Are you getting all this ??? Do you understand what I am getting at ???

Respond to this with "WELL... Um... DUHHH... GASE didn't have a good offensive line last year so, lets give him a chance"  and I will award you with the grand title... Idiot Head Of The Year...

My only hope to save Sam's future with the Jets is the hope that JD is not beholden in any way to Gase and he promotes Gase out of NY for 2021.  

I cant be any clearer than that.  

For the last 6 months I've been reading where people here point to Sam's last 8 games, talk about the numbers he put up in them as proof that he is an elite Franchise QB.

My question to you is... 

Who's offense was Darnold running at that time? 

[#27TheDominator]

51 minutes ago, TNJet said:

Give me Darnold and let me call the plays this year: top 5 in the nfl in scoring offense. 30.5 pts per game avg.

Give Gase Darnold and let him call the plays this year: bottom 5 in the league in scoring. 15.7 ppg.

Gase sucks.

 

9 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

For the last 6 months I've been reading where people here point to Sam's last 8 games, talk about the numbers he put up in them as proof that he is an elite Franchise QB.

My question to you is... 

Who's offense was Darnold running at that time? 

@TNJet ?

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

P Manning, T Tebow, Cutler, Tannehill, Moore, all the same apparently all play the same way.  

Hate to break it to you but Sam is perfectly suited to this style of offense.  

?????????

3 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

And let's uh, talk about zone blocking ruining Adams pass plays

?????????

3 hours ago, THE BARON said:

Zone blocking on its own does not ruin pass plays.  I didn't make that assertion nor would I ever do so.   That post above is a useless fragment.  Instead of looking to win an argument for the sake of it by using the tactics of child, try to take in and digest the big picture.  All the moving parts in synergy.  

 

1 hour ago, THE BARON said:

 

You are labeling me a "name caller". That is quite an indictment coming from the person that began with the name calling.  I only engage in full contact posting when others encourage it.  Your response to my evaluation  in an earlier thread was met by your response that saw you call me "NOSTRADAMOS".  That preceded any chiding that you got from me.  If you like to interact like a gentleman and a sportsman, than try to be one... 

Where did I start calling you anything? 

Oh wait Nostradamus.  In another thread.  A seer of the future.  Name calling.

And to another poster.  Yeah, only in response: Ug… I keep forgetting that this forum is tailored for Archie and Jughead.  I'll dial it down so as not to trigger any of the more sensitive folks...  

Gotcha

 

[David Harris]

pre-reactively name calling in the OP - smh

[Chrebetfan80]

49 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Sam Darnold is a more effective QB rolling out and making plays. 

Gase would take russel wilson and lamar jackson and make them pocket passers.

It comes down to what does the QB do best and how can i make an offense to suit him.

Making Darnold a pocket passer is limiting his effectiveness.

 

not necessarily true.  Lamar Jackson actually led the league in TD passes from the pocket last season.  It's misleading to think to be effective you have to have mobile qbs outside the pocket making throws.  A lot of the throws these guys are making "outside the pocket" are usually on plays where they scramble out and hit guys on the run, but not by design.  Look at the mobile qbs there are some designed roll outs for sure, but mostly they are asked to drop back, then scramble out of the pocket and make a play.

I would argue that is almost primarily how russel wilson does his job, he is rarely a "roll out" qb anymore, watch seahawks games, he is straight drop back the majority of the time, and ends up outside the pocket because his offensive line cant hold up.  

You dont want the majority of your offense to be roll outs and moving pockets, its too easy for the defense to defend.  Easy to send autoblitzes to the roll side, and then allows the defense to only have to defend half the field.  

These plays are called sometimes as designed roll outs, mostly though off of run fakes, which is a play action pass.  I mentioned this before that it should be incorporated more into the offense, and we did see that come to fruition, however you need an effective run game to pull this off.  The jets run game was inconsistent at best last season, so with that in mind,  its easy to see why there was less of it in the offense last season. 

 

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

If Yannick Ngakoue can prove his 12-sack season wasn't a fluke, he'd be an outlier.  My money is on his productivity not being sustainable.

Demarcus Lawrence had a pitiful 3-cone and I don't think he was much as an athlete.  He had a couple of double digit sack seasons, but obviously a valid point.

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

Demarcus Lawrence had a pitiful 3-cone and I don't think he was much as an athlete.  He had a couple of double digit sack seasons, but obviously a valid point.

Yep.  Worse overall score than Ngakoue.  

[#27TheDominator]

11 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yep.  Worse overall score than Ngakoue.  

 

I know.  A few weeks ago I mistakenly accused Demarcus Ware of having a bad 3-cone because  I mixed up my Demarcuses.  Ware's 3 cone was tremendous.  6.8 or something.

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I know.  A few weeks ago I mistakenly accused Demarcus Ware of having a bad 3-cone because  I mixed up my Demarcuses.  Ware's 3 cone was tremendous.  6.8 or something.

Yep, 6.85!  Freak.  Parcells' best pick in his career.