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Vader

Bell as WR / Bell and Gore Personnel Groupings Together

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Back seat OCs opinions. Curious how to interpret two all-time great pass catching RBs and potential on the field together. 

How to take advantage of a defense whether it’s in base (and/or wants to stack the box) or in nickel, with the same (essentially) offensive personnel grouping that can flex Bell and Gore in and out of the backfield while maintaining 2 WR and 1 TE at least or some variation thereof.

a DC wants to come out in nickel? Flex the formation to run. Want to come out in base and put a LB or CB on Bell split out, with Gore facing a non-stacked box? I’ll take it. 

Bell’s go-tos in Pitt were the counter with TE/Wing pulling, and various zone scheme runs out of a one back set. 

But Another really interesting possibility is Bell’s capacity not just in the receiving game out of the backfield, but as a WR.

He is a matchup problem for LBs and Safeties and a challenge even for CBs — he can run WR routes and has blueberry muffin hands. At 6’1” 225, he’s bigger than most corners.

Bell on the field with Frank Gore at the same time could be interesting — with both as options in either the run or pass game or screen game, and shifting to the defense’s weakness. Even though Gore hasn’t been getting the 30-50 receptions per year that he used to, he has almost 4000 yards receiving in his career.

Creative offensive scheming could create real matchup problems for defenses and potentially havoc for opposing LBs and defensive coordinators who will have a hard time adjusting with personnel groupings and responsibilities.

It could be something that there’s no film to study for.

Think of lining Gore in the slot, and Bell in the backfield, or Bell out wide, and Gore in the backfield, and then running a play or shifting to something else. Playaction could be sick here...

for example:

mims-JC-T-G-C-G-T gore —perriman
———————-QB——————————

—————-——Bell—————————

 

Bell-JC-T-G-C-G-T Herndon-mims
———————-QB——————————

—————-——Gore—————————
 

mims—JC-T-G-C-G-T Herndon/block TE
——————-QB——————————

—————Bell—Gore————————

 

mims-Gore-T-G-C-G-T JC perriman 
———————-QB——————————

—————-——Bell—————————

 

mims-bell-T-G-C-G-T JC perriman 
———————-QB——————————

—————-——Gore—————————

 

————JC-T-G-C-G-T perriman -mims 
————Gore—-QB————————-

—————-——Bell—————————

thoughts?

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1 minute ago, 82nd Airborne said:

We talking about Gase now. 

We are. book is not closed on gase. I mean I have a bit of background in football strategy and it isn’t hard to see the potential w these two...

also seeing Gase bring Gore in here specifically and Gore coming in to NY just for gase... 

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1 minute ago, Vader said:

We are. book is not closed on gase. I mean I have a bit of background in football strategy and it isn’t hard to see the potential w these two...

also seeing Gase bring Gore in here specifically and Gore coming in to NY just for gase... 

I hope you are right.  But don't forget that Sam was the one that asked for the play calling and the Jets turned their season around. 

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1 minute ago, Barry McCockinner said:

I remember having similar discussions about the use of Bell and Montgomery together last year. None of it ever happened.

Interesting. I think gore is miles better than Montgomery and more accustomed to gase though. Different OL now too — and addition of Herndon 

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Maybe we can put Bell Gore and Perrine all in the backfield at the same time - that would really confuse the defense. We can play hide the ball. Or maybe pass it to "Blueberry Muffin Hands". lol.  Creative post so please can I have some of what u were smoking?

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If Gase is going to run the ball up the middle every second when there’s 8 guys in the box he might as well but a real FB to at least block for Bell. 

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3 minutes ago, New York Mick said:

If Gase is going to run the ball up the middle every second when there’s 8 guys in the box he might as well but a real FB to at least block for Bell. 

Bell runs out of a one back set... 

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5 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

I remember having similar discussions about the use of Bell and Montgomery together last year. None of it ever happened.

The Jets had the worst OL in league history and injuries all over, not just at the OL but throughout the entire line up.

But Gase is at fault for not calling plays or scheming an offensive game plan that could exploit a defense that could stack 8 guys at the LoS and not have to worry about any mid to deep pass plays because Sam was under instant pressure. 

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4 minutes ago, Nixhead said:

Maybe we can put Bell Gore and Perrine all in the backfield at the same time - that would really confuse the defense. We can play hide the ball. Or maybe pass it to "Blueberry Muffin Hands". lol.  Creative post so please can I have some of what u were smoking?

Or....maybe not 

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6 minutes ago, Big_Slick said:

The Jets had the worst OL in league history and injuries all over, not just at the OL but throughout the entire line up.

But Gase is at fault for not calling plays or scheming an offensive game plan that could exploit a defense that could stack 8 guys at the LoS and not have to worry about any mid to deep pass plays because Sam was under instant pressure. 

You seen really defensive about Adam Gase. 

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6 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

You seen really defensive about Adam Gase. 

I think that he came into a really bad situation and there wasn't a whole lot he could have done to scheme or call plays with the guys that he could put out on the field. I have Directv Sunday Ticket and have recorded every Dolphins game for >15 years, because I hate them and want to watch them lose. It makes me feel a little bit better after watching the Jets crap the bed most games.

I came away with the opinion that Gase is a good HC when given a decent team with a QB1.

Let's watch next season and then give him a fair evaluation.

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1 minute ago, Big_Slick said:

 I have Directv Sunday Ticket and have recorded every Dolphins game for >15 years, because I hate them and want to watch them lose. It makes me feel a little bit better after watching the Jets 

Hardcore bro. That is hardcore.

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Im not sure about Gore and Bell out there together but I do think the plan you are discussing is a good one, but with 2 TEs instead of 2 RBs.

Putting Mims and Perriman as WRs along with Bell, Herndon and Ryan Griffin would allow us to run the ball with 2 TEs and Mims who is a good blocker if the defense is in nickel or go 4 receivers and keep one TE in as an extra pass blocker.  Herndon, Bell, Mims and Perriman would create some mismatches vs LBs or you can keep Bell in at RB to help pass protect and use Griffin as one of 4 very tall receivers. 

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the "star" running back can't run. the backup is a trillion years old.

Let's put them at WR

 

angry conan obrien GIF by Team Coco

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11 hours ago, Vader said:

Interesting. I think gore is miles better than Montgomery and more accustomed to gase though. Different OL now too — and addition of Herndon 

Yes - Gore is obviously better than Montgomery. We'll see if they allow him to bring his walker into the huddle.

I only mentioned this because I found it interesting that we were having almost the same discussion last year. Obviously a lot has changed since then and we're talking about personnel. 

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We were having the discussion last year because Montgomery is a hybrid WR/RB.  At the time we didn't realize how not very good he was.  Bell ran a 4.6 when he was young and spry.  No team is nervous about him flexing out against a nickel CB.  That is why he doesn't play WR.   He is not a mismatch in favor of the offense against any team's nickel.  Gore was every so slightly faster, but years earlier.  These guys are not scaring NFL DBs with their pass routes.  Their receiving success comes from playing against Lbs. You put them both on the field at the same time and expect them to catch passes?  The secondary is going to exhale because it is going to be a relaxing day.  

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I see where you're going, but I really don't think it's generally going to be optimal to take Herndon, Mims, or Perriman off the field for a 35-year-old Frank Gore. Really, I'm hoping that someone else emerges from that WR group that they need to get on the field, rather than taking a receiver off. 

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I like your innavative thinking but I don't think they go to many double back sets.  Hopefully they won't go any empty back sets until potentially four or five starters have some reps and its not a revolving door for the defense until their is cohesion and the ability to pass off up front. We were pretty bad in empty sets last year and I think it hurt Bell's production by preventing him from flexing him out much or putting him in motion leaving an empty set.  It also handcuffed Gase. I just can't see Gore being something for the defense to change up to with Bell back there. Gore has been a stat stacking guy over the years but never has he been a change the defense for guy. They will allow the occasional five yard burst but I think his purpose will be get a third and short, screens and pass block in third and longs knowing the house is coming for he is a good blocker. 

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Bell just needs to play at 225, instead of 237ish or whatever he was last season.

 

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4 minutes ago, RoadFan said:

Bell just needs to play at 225, instead of 237ish or whatever he was last season.

 

Bell just needs someone to f'n block for him.

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13 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Bell just needs someone to f'n block for him.

That too...

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Bell @ WR is so overblown that it's almost funnier than it is sad...

he does have good hands...   but he's not match up problem cos he would be one of the the slowest WR in the league...    

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Nice job, the skill set of both bell and gore present a lot of options for a 21 personnel package, more so in the pass game against a more traditional base defense to support against a run game.  It puts defenses in a bind when deciding what personnel they want to match when you can spread in 21 personnel just as easy as contract.  

The only point here is that it is slightly limiting as a 2 back run game as gore and bell would not be as effective lined up as a fullback and taking on kick out blocks or lead blocks in zone. So this package can be very effective with the intent to pass first and check to a run if the defense comes out in nickle and empties the box. 

Right now if you want a good example of how to do this at the highest level, and by "do this" i mean run 21 personnel equally as a pass or run with everything looking the same, look at the 49ers. Kyle Juszczyk is the ultimate run/pass option weapon for 21 peronnel, he can make all the blocks as a fullback, is able to run almost any route you'd want from the backfield or out wide while also having very good hands, and is good in pass pro. 

So while with gore we are certainly positioned well for 20 and 21 personnel packages now with what gore brings to the table I do think we are still a little limited in terms of unlocking the potential of these groupings that other nfl teams can bring to the table now. 

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4 hours ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

Nice job, the skill set of both bell and gore present a lot of options for a 21 personnel package, more so in the pass game against a more traditional base defense to support against a run game.  It puts defenses in a bind when deciding what personnel they want to match when you can spread in 21 personnel just as easy as contract.  

The only point here is that it is slightly limiting as a 2 back run game as gore and bell would not be as effective lined up as a fullback and taking on kick out blocks or lead blocks in zone. So this package can be very effective with the intent to pass first and check to a run if the defense comes out in nickle and empties the box. 

Right now if you want a good example of how to do this at the highest level, and by "do this" i mean run 21 personnel equally as a pass or run with everything looking the same, look at the 49ers. Kyle Juszczyk is the ultimate run/pass option weapon for 21 peronnel, he can make all the blocks as a fullback, is able to run almost any route you'd want from the backfield or out wide while also having very good hands, and is good in pass pro. 

So while with gore we are certainly positioned well for 20 and 21 personnel packages now with what gore brings to the table I do think we are still a little limited in terms of unlocking the potential of these groupings that other nfl teams can bring to the table now. 

This is great thx @Chrebetfan80

it’s exactly what I mean but I hear u on jusczyk issue . I don’t think the RBs should ever be (super rarely) lined up in any kind of traditional FB-HB formation but rather to force a defense to contract or open up. Opening up a base defense by splitting Bell out gives Gore one less LB to deal with on run, and if a DC swings a LB out to cover Bell, that’s also a favorable matchup. If the DC wants to run a nickel, bring Bell in and let him run it vs a small front 7. Or, you have Gore that can take any kind of screen/flat/fade from the slot.

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8 hours ago, Losmeister said:

Bell @ WR is so overblown that it's almost funnier than it is sad...

he does have good hands...   but he's not match up problem cos he would be one of the the slowest WR in the league...    

I hear u on speed but Speed is overrated — besides, we have burners at SE already and Herndon also can put vertical pressure.

Bell has great hands and can make incredible catches as we saw last year. He has WR instincts in zone coverage and he runs good routes with good twitch.

He can get open. His hands and feet do the rest 

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22 hours ago, Vader said:

We are. book is not closed on gase. I mean I have a bit of background in football strategy and it isn’t hard to see the potential w these two...

also seeing Gase bring Gore in here specifically and Gore coming in to NY just for gase... 

Expecting anything more than spot duty from Gore is not sound football strategy

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23 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

I remember having similar discussions about the use of Bell and Montgomery together last year. None of it ever happened.

 

exactly what i was going to say

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1 hour ago, Vader said:

I hear u on speed but Speed is overrated — besides, we have burners at SE already and Herndon also can put vertical pressure.

Bell has great hands and can make incredible catches as we saw last year. He has WR instincts in zone coverage and he runs good routes with good twitch.

He can get open. His hands and feet do the rest 

Did he make more than ONE really good catch? The one vs Oaktown was great. But isolated. 

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17 minutes ago, Losmeister said:

Did he make more than ONE really good catch? The one vs Oaktown was great. But isolated. 

Off the top of my head buffalo too. 

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On 5/31/2020 at 11:17 PM, Barry McCockinner said:

I remember having similar discussions about the use of Bell and Montgomery together last year. None of it ever happened.

Because as it turned out Montgomery sucked

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On 6/1/2020 at 4:16 AM, Vader said:

We are. book is not closed on gase. I mean I have a bit of background in football strategy and it isn’t hard to see the potential w these two...

also seeing Gase bring Gore in here specifically and Gore coming in to NY just for gase... 

No reason he couldn't have done this last year with Bilal Powell who is one of the best blocking backs in the NFL and looked better than Gore did in 2019. 

Pardon me if I'm not excited to see that the Jets got older and slower at RB2 after Gase had no idea what to do with a better option in 2019.

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