Shorter offseason makes it hard for rookies to prove themselves

[slats]

Pete Carroll: Shorter offseason makes it hard for rookies to prove themselves

Posted by Michael David Smith on June 15, 2020, 5:15 AM EDT

 

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In the 2012 offseason, the Seahawks signed quarterback Matt Flynn to be their starter, then spent a third-round draft pick on quarterback Russell Wilson, who was expected to be a backup. But Wilson was so impressive during rookie minicamp, organized team activities, training camp and the preseason that Wilson was named the starter. And the rest is history.

If the Seahawks have a rookie poised to break out this year, he won’t get as many opportunities to prove himself.

Seahawks coach Pete Carroll said he’s concerned that the coronavirus pandemic shutting down the offseason will mean his best rookies won’t be able to show they’re ready to contribute. And he says if the NFL ends up halving the preseason, it will be even tougher.

“I think the number one thing that it changes is the opportunity for the young guys to show themselves,” Carroll said, via the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. “So if that were to take place [two preseason games] — although I’m really impressed with our young guys and how they’ve learned and how they’ve applied themselves up to this point — but still, there just might not be enough time to really give them the chance. So they might be behind in that area a little bit. . . . Maybe the free agent doesn’t get as many opportunities as he needs to show. The last two [preseason] games are so important and so crucial for a young guy trying to make a club, so I don’t think that would be the area of focus.”

This may prove to be an NFL season with fewer breakout rookies, and no Russell Wilsons earning a surprise starting quarterback job.

[Philc1]

He’s absolutely right especially for rookies who play on offense that’s why it’s a good idea to sign a Veteran like Peters or Beachum to start at least a few games at LT while Becton learns the plays

[CTJetsFan]

I'm also concerned about our o-line as a whole as well. So many new guys and that is usually a unit that needs reps and time to gel.

[slats]

I've been talking about this since the virus hit, it's definitely a factor with a young Jets team looking to rebuild their OL, CBs, and WRs, in a very condensed period of time. The teams that changed head coaches and/or coordinators have it worse, but the Jets are up there. 

They did the most on the OL, they probably have a really good idea on at least four of five starters at this point, but I could see some shuffling of both players and positions in the preseason and into the regular season. With a proper offseason, maybe a guy like Cameron Clark could've proven himself a capable guard, for instance, but that just seems highly unlikely his rookie year now. 

At WR, Crowder's a lock and it's Perriman and Mims' jobs on the outside until they lose them. Problem for the Jets is that Perriman and Mims both need a lot of work to get ready to be starters in the regular season, leaving the assortment of players behind them hoping to make an impression with nothing but scraps as far as reps go. Probably gives a guy like Vyncint Smith an upper hand over a guy like Doctson. There's some excitement about Cager, but are the coaches going to see enough of him to make a determination? I think the Jets carry six WRs and probably store at least one more on the practice squad. 

The CB position is the one that's the most patched up. It's no coincidence that OT and WR were Joe D's first two picks and, if he had his way, CB probably would've been third. At least Davis plays DB, and the Jets will probably do the big nickel thing quite a bit. Poole probably won't leave the field much and Desir is probably a semi-lock to start, but that other side is pretty wide open between Maulet, Austin, and Hairston. This is a position that really could've used the extra time to find a surprise. How fast does Hall climb into the rotation? The Jets have a couple undrafted guys in Jackson and Guidry, but will they see reps? Gregg Williams went deep on his bench last year and I kinda expect the CB position to be a work in progress almost all season long. 

[rangerous]

37 minutes ago, slats said:

I've been talking about this since the virus hit, it's definitely a factor with a young Jets team looking to rebuild their OL, CBs, and WRs, in a very condensed period of time. The teams that changed head coaches and/or coordinators have it worse, but the Jets are up there. 

They did the most on the OL, they probably have a really good idea on at least four of five starters at this point, but I could see some shuffling of both players and positions in the preseason and into the regular season. With a proper offseason, maybe a guy like Cameron Clark could've proven himself a capable guard, for instance, but that just seems highly unlikely his rookie year now. 

At WR, Crowder's a lock and it's Perriman and Mims' jobs on the outside until they lose them. Problem for the Jets is that Perriman and Mims both need a lot of work to get ready to be starters in the regular season, leaving the assortment of players behind them hoping to make an impression with nothing but scraps as far as reps go. Probably gives a guy like Vyncint Smith an upper hand over a guy like Doctson. There's some excitement about Cager, but are the coaches going to see enough of him to make a determination? I think the Jets carry six WRs and probably store at least one more on the practice squad. 

The CB position is the one that's the most patched up. It's no coincidence that OT and WR were Joe D's first two picks and, if he had his way, CB probably would've been third. At least Davis plays DB, and the Jets will probably do the big nickel thing quite a bit. Poole probably won't leave the field much and Desir is probably a semi-lock to start, but that other side is pretty wide open between Maulet, Austin, and Hairston. This is a position that really could've used the extra time to find a surprise. How fast does Hall climb into the rotation? The Jets have a couple undrafted guys in Jackson and Guidry, but will they see reps? Gregg Williams went deep on his bench last year and I kinda expect the CB position to be a work in progress almost all season long. 

excellent points all.  these guys need to work together.  as it is, there are tons of restrictions in the cba.  i never understood why coaches can interact with players for long periods after the season ends.  seems pretty stupid and counter productive.  football is a 24/7/365 sport and players need to train year round.

[nico002]

Every indication is they camp will start on time... not sure what you guys are referring to?

[slats]

2 minutes ago, nico002 said:

Every indication is they camp will start on time... not sure what you guys are referring to?

Rookie camps and OTAs. Extremely valuable to get a head start on where everyone's gonna be once training camp starts. They're all filmed, too, giving the coaches plenty of time to find guys making plays on tape that maybe they didn't see live. Rookie camp, especially, would've been awesome for receivers and CBs. 

And training camp starting on time is no lock, either. The preseason could be shortened. A lot of work has already been lost and more could be on the way. 

[docdhc]

I don’t know about this. A lot of guys who flash in OTAs and mini camps, chad Hansen comes to mind, disappear when the hitting starts in training camp. Cream rises to the top eventually and if you’re good you’ll get a chance to prove it. I think they would have been able to tell Russel Wilson was better than Matt Flynn pretty quickly during training camp if they were in this situation then. 

[Lith]

1 hour ago, CTJetsFan said:

I'm also concerned about our o-line as a whole as well. So many new guys and that is usually a unit that needs reps and time to gel.

This.  Things could be pretty ugly to start the season with 4 or 5 new starters along the OL.

[nico002]

43 minutes ago, slats said:

Rookie camps and OTAs. Extremely valuable to get a head start on where everyone's gonna be once training camp starts. They're all filmed, too, giving the coaches plenty of time to find guys making plays on tape that maybe they didn't see live. Rookie camp, especially, would've been awesome for receivers and CBs. 

And training camp starting on time is no lock, either. The preseason could be shortened. A lot of work has already been lost and more could be on the way. 

I don’t agree. If the NBA is playing regular season games in July the NfL will have camp. If camp started today they’d be in camp. 
 

 

[slats]

3 minutes ago, nico002 said:

I don’t agree. If the NBA is playing regular season games in July the NfL will have camp. If camp started today they’d be in camp. 

Whatever, Dude. 

Isn't the NBA planning to play all it's games in Florida, a state where numbers are on the rise? If NFL training camps could open today, why does the NBA need to set up everything in one state? Why aren't they all preparing in their home cities? 

And you don't think it might be slightly less complicated to manage 15 man rosters vs. 90 in this situation? 

[Matt39]

7 minutes ago, nico002 said:

I don’t agree. If the NBA is playing regular season games in July the NfL will have camp. If camp started today they’d be in camp. 
 

 

That's if the players show up.

[nico002]

1 hour ago, slats said:

Whatever, Dude. 

Isn't the NBA planning to play all it's games in Florida, a state where numbers are on the rise? If NFL training camps could open today, why does the NBA need to set up everything in one state? Why aren't they all preparing in their home cities? 

And you don't think it might be slightly less complicated to manage 15 man rosters vs. 90 in this situation? 

Not really, Soccer leuages in Europe are up and running no problem. An active leuage has hundreds of times more variables and human interactions than 90 individuals practicing in a controllered environment. Regardless of how many people are on the roster... 

[nico002]

1 hour ago, Matt39 said:

That's if the players show up.

Half the team showed up for a practice in Florida. Are you really concerned about this? Lol 

[jeremy2020]

This sounds like something Madden would say.."Ya know, ya gotta score more points than the other team to win". 

"Rookies without rookie camp, mini-camps, and a shortened training camp will have a harder time than guys who have been in the league already"

[pdxgreen]

I don't fell sorry for the NFL rookies. I feel sorry potential NBA rookies. Jeez.  Talk about being left in limbo.

[Matt39]

12 minutes ago, nico002 said:

Half the team showed up for a practice in Florida. Are you really concerned about this? Lol 

NBA/MLB are having their issues. There will certainly be players with big voices who will be against showing up, especially if the other leagues havent returned. 

[Lupz27]

Sam Darnold has been screwed once again by his GM, how JD thinks coming away with Perriman, and Mims in one of the biggest Years for WR’s both in FA, and the draft is acceptable is beyond me.  But hey he thinks he rebuilt the OL with scrap heap fringe starters so there is that.

[nico002]

14 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

NBA/MLB are having their issues. There will certainly be players with big voices who will be against showing up, especially if the other leagues havent returned. 

Don't agree, the NBA had three irrelevant players say something. 99% of the NBA will show up.  MLB is having issues around pay, not safety. We are talking about NFL practice, totally different than an active league.

[Charlie Brown]

6 hours ago, Philc1 said:

He’s absolutely right especially for rookies who play on offense that’s why it’s a good idea to sign a Veteran like Peters or Beachum to start at least a few games at LT while Becton learns the plays

You  are right!!!

This is why Darnold working out with Mims is such a big deal!

[JetsFanatic]

Shorter off season is detrimental to teams with new coaching staffs.

 

[Philc1]

7 hours ago, CTJetsFan said:

I'm also concerned about our o-line as a whole as well. So many new guys and that is usually a unit that needs reps and time to gel.

My big concern too.  That’s why we may need to resign Beachum and start Winters at Right Guard

[Philc1]

1 hour ago, Charlie Brown said:

You  are right!!!

This is why Darnold working out with Mims is such a big deal!

Mims has the most difficult task because WR is a harder position to learn than most positions on the OL

[Warfish]

Only really relevant for fresh rookies and teams with new coaching staffs. 

And it effects all teams new draft classes equally.  

I'm not worried, the Jets will just have to overcome it.  No excuses.

[slats]

17 hours ago, Warfish said:

Only really relevant for fresh rookies and teams with new coaching staffs. 

And it effects all teams new draft classes equally.  

I'm not worried, the Jets will just have to overcome it.  No excuses.

As I noted, teams changing head coaches and/or coordinators have it worst this year. 

Next up are teams like the Jets who don't have their starting lineups set at OL, WR, or CB, and have a lot of young players to sift thru to see who's going to stand out. A team like the defending champion Chiefs returning 20 of 22 starters isn't having difficulties "equal" to the Jets this year. 

Of course they need to overcome it, but it is something they have to overcome. 

[Warfish]

37 minutes ago, slats said:

.....teams like the Jets who don't have their starting lineups set at OL, WR, or CB, and have a lot of young players to sift thru to see who's going to stand out.

I don't agree with your premise.

Our starting lineup is more than likely set in the minds of Gase and JD.  A quick look at a depth chart today will likely mirror the depth chart opening day.

The young players that need sifted through are backups, not starters.

[slats]

6 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I don't agree with your premise.

Our starting lineup is more than likely set in the minds of Gase and JD.

The young players that need sifted through and backups, not starters.

Okay. 

I, however, continue to agree with my premise.  

I don't think the OL is set much beyond McGovern at center and Becton at one of the OT spots. And even if they knew where they expected everyone to lineup, it takes time and reps for an OL to gel. Then you have Perriman and Mims penciled in by default and the CB opposite Desir, also no great acquisition, remains unclear. 

There's a lot of work they need to do that some other teams don't. 

[Warfish]

6 minutes ago, slats said:

Okay. 

I, however, continue to agree with my premise.  

?

Quote

I don't think the OL is set much beyond McGovern at center and Becton at one of the OT spots. And even if they knew where they expected everyone to lineup, it takes time and reps for an OL to gel. Then you have Perriman and Mims are penciled in by default and the CB opposite Desir, also no great acquisition, remains unclear. 

There's a lot of work they need to do that some other teams don't. 

I think the opening day line is set, Becton-Lewis-McGovern-Winters-Van Roten.  Fant and Edoga might have an outside shot to play, but are likely backups with Harrison.  Maybe Edoga starts at first over Van Roten, who knows.

Mims and Perriman aren't "penciled in", they ARE the starters, there is no chance outside injury where they're warming the bench for the likes of Berrios, Doctson, Cager or Smith,  They're literally JD's "we did something for Darnold" guys, they're not sitting unless they are massive busts here.

You're right about reps, but that's an issue for any team that drafted or changed their O-line.  It's an advantage to already solid/established lines, everyone else has to overcome it.  But even then, our O-line cannot be worse than last year no matter how few reps they get,

As long as training camp and preseason happen, it's a non-issue.  Starters will get sorted and the O-line will get reps.

[Big_Slick]

23 hours ago, Lupz27 said:

Sam Darnold has been screwed once again by his GM, how JD thinks coming away with Perriman, and Mims in one of the biggest Years for WR’s both in FA, and the draft is acceptable is beyond me.  But hey he thinks he rebuilt the OL with scrap heap fringe starters so there is that.

The team that Macc left Gase and JD had so many holes that it's pretty obvious it's going to take two or even three drafts/FA to fix.

JD improved every OL position while keeping two backups and had a very good draft. Potential 10 year fixture at LT, Mims is a top level WR who could be a legit WR1 next year, Davis at FS is going to give GW flexibility and will improve the D. The punter was also an excellent pick, flipping the field rather than the 32 yard punts we're use to seeing in big situations. I just wish we had an extra first round pick....

[slats]

42 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I think the opening day line is set, Becton-Lewis-McGovern-Winters-Van Roten.  Fant and Edoga might have an outside shot to play, but are likely backups with Harrison.  Maybe Edoga starts at first over Van Roten, who knows.

You think Fant is a $10M backup to Van Roten, who I thought was a guard, with Edoga having the edge over him, too? Yeah, I don't think that at all. I do think it's probably a topic of discussion at Jets HQ. 

42 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Mims and Perriman aren't "penciled in", they ARE the starters, there is no chance outside injury where they're warming the bench for the likes of Berrios, Doctson, Cager or Smith,  They're literally JD's "we did something for Darnold" guys, they're not sitting unless they are massive busts here.

Mims and Perriman are penciled in. They're probably the opening day starters, and I hope they flourish. But they're also one guy who's had one good four game stretch in his four year career and a second round rookie. At best, they're JD's, "at least we didn't completely ignore the position," guys. Once upon a time, Wayne Chrebet went from UDFA to rookie starter on the strength of his performance thru the spring and summer leading up to training camp. A guy like Vyncint Smith, who already has a year under his belt, also could've made some head way in that way. Maybe Cager could overcome his tiny hands disability with some reps. The young guys get to dominate those rookie camps and OTAs while the vets sit home. Once camp starts, the vets play and the young guys sit. Hard to break thru like that. And the Jets could really use someone to break thru. The CB position, too, where one side is a wide open competition. 

[Warfish]

2 hours ago, slats said:

You think Fant is a $10M backup to Van Roten, who I thought was a guard, with Edoga having the edge over him, too? Yeah, I don't think that at all. I do think it's probably a topic of discussion at Jets HQ. 

I think it doesn't really make much of a difference.  Camp and Preseason, if Coached correctly, will provide whichever 5 start with more than enough Reps to start the season.  Edoga, Van Roten, Fant, whomever.  They'll get the snaps they need.

2 hours ago, slats said:

Mims and Perriman are penciled in. They're probably the opening day starters, and I hope they flourish. But they're also one guy who's had one good four game stretch in his four year career and a second round rookie. At best, they're JD's, "at least we didn't completely ignore the position," guys. Once upon a time, Wayne Chrebet went from UDFA to rookie starter on the strength of his performance thru the spring and summer leading up to training camp. A guy like Vyncint Smith, who already has a year under his belt, also could've made some head way in that way. Maybe Cager could overcome his tiny hands disability with some reps. The young guys get to dominate those rookie camps and OTAs while the vets sit home. Once camp starts, the vets play and the young guys sit. Hard to break thru like that. And the Jets could really use someone to break thru. The CB position, too, where one side is a wide open competition. 

If you say so.  Personally, if we have a Berrios-or Smith type rise above a Mims or Perriman, it's a horrible indictment of JD's poor judgment.  But I don't expect that.  The Cult of the UDFA WR in Jets Fansdom is strong, but 99% of the time, it's just fantasy and wishful thinking.

No, I think it'll be Perriman, Mims and Crowder, with the rest falling in line behind as depth guys who can hopefully contribute if needed.

[freestater]

4 hours ago, Warfish said:

I think the opening day line is set, Becton-Lewis-McGovern-Winters-Van Roten

Really? I haven't seen Van Roten mentioned at tackle at all. Has he ever played tackle before?

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, freestater said:

Really? I haven't seen Van Roten mentioned at tackle at all. Has he ever played tackle before?

Aye, I'm probably wrong on the starting line tbqh.

[freestater]

15 hours ago, Warfish said:

Aye, I'm probably wrong on the starting line tbqh.

I wasn't that familiar with his background, dont know whether he played outside at any point. Assuming a lot of NFL guards play tackle in college, it's possible. 

I'm actually higher on Fant than most. Thought he was the most natural pivot after seeing that Conklin was out. Surprised at what we paid him, but if he can lock down the right side he'll be worth it.  I still think Winters is the weak spot and could see him replaced at some point with either Clarke or Edoga. I am under the impression that Becton-Van Roten-McGovern-Winters-Fant is the defacto starting line barring injury. Winters is the only guy on that line who was part of that atrocity last year lol. 

[slats]

2 hours ago, freestater said:

I wasn't that familiar with his background, dont know whether he played outside at any point. Assuming a lot of NFL guards play tackle in college, it's possible. 

I'm actually higher on Fant than most. Thought he was the most natural pivot after seeing that Conklin was out. Surprised at what we paid him, but if he can lock down the right side he'll be worth it.  I still think Winters is the weak spot and could see him replaced at some point with either Clarke or Edoga. I am under the impression that Becton-Van Roten-McGovern-Winters-Fant is the defacto starting line barring injury. Winters is the only guy on that line who was part of that atrocity last year lol. 

Alex Lewis signed a three year deal for $18.5M, while Van Roten signed for three years, $10.3M. I don't know why people have Van Roten ahead of Lewis outside of the opposite of the devil you know theory. But the Jets paid Lewis more like the starter, and Van Roten like the backup. 

And George Fant will make almost as much in 2020 as Van Roten will make over the life of his current deal. 

But differing opinions on the OL is part of why I started this thread. I'm sure they have an idea of where guys will be lining up, or sitting, but they really won't know for sure until they start getting some reps together.