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New York Mick

Who Is The Best (Non QB) Player In The NFL

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1 hour ago, HawkeyeJet said:

That's not the question. Or at least how I interpret "best". The question isn't who is the most valuable.  Or who I would take first.

Aaron Donald is a better DT than Mahomes is a QB.  Aaron Donald is quite possibly the best player at his position of all time. He might even be in the discussion for best defensive player of all time.  At this point, you couldn't make that argument for Mahomes, and possibly never will.

I also disagree the difference between Donald and other defensive tackles(although you compare him to other positions) and Mahomes and other QBs is a bigger gap in favor of Mahomes.

Mahomes right now might be the best QB ever at the single most important position.  Danold is in the argument for best interior lineman of all time but he is not the greatest of all time.  That would be Bob Lilly.  

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3 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Does best mean "best relative to his position" or "most valuable."

You're not going to take Quenton Nelson over an elite pass rusher or playmaker but he's pretty damn dominant at his position.

Best to me is who I would take to start a team out of anyone in the NFL assuming I was set at QB. 

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5 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Mahomes right now might be the best QB ever at the single most important position.  .  

That is asinine.

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37 minutes ago, New York Mick said:

Best to me is who I would take to start a team out of anyone in the NFL assuming I was set at QB. 

See, if that's the case I think it pretty much has to be the best pass rusher in the NFL. If I can't pick a QB I gotta pick the player best situated to stop other teams QBs. No WR is truly worth as much as an elite pass rusher. Answer would probably be Nick Bosa, Myles Garrett or Aaron Donald.

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2 hours ago, HawkeyeJet said:

That's not the question. Or at least how I interpret "best". The question isn't who is the most valuable.  Or who I would take first.

Aaron Donald is a better DT than Mahomes is a QB.  Aaron Donald is quite possibly the best player at his position of all time. He might even be in the discussion for best defensive player of all time.  At this point, you couldn't make that argument for Mahomes, and possibly never will.

I also disagree the difference between Donald and other defensive tackles(although you compare him to other positions) and Mahomes and other QBs is a bigger gap in favor of Mahomes.

Good debate here.  I don't agree but totally recognize this is purely opinion with no absolute right/wrong.

Here's my retort though:

Donald is the best DT in the league right now.  But his value as a defensive lineman, to me, is not really greater than the other guys I mentioned.  I happen to think Mahomes right now isn't only far and away the best QB in the league today, but he is more dominant at the position than anyone else at any position, including Donald.  Part of it for me is that you have a guy like J.J. Watt who lines up at DT a fair amount (almost 20% of his snaps) and is IMO every bit as dominant (when he wasn't injured) as Donald is.  

When you get into All-Time discussions, you start opening a different can of worms.  First when you talk about all-time DTs, you have to deal with Joe Greene (and for some, Bob Lilly). That's a hard enough mountain to climb.  But when you open it up into best defensive player of all time, you are going to get smashed by the force that is Lawrence Taylor.  I feel very comfortable saying that LT is firmly the best defensive player of all time and will likely never be supplanted unless Wolverine happens and is allowed to play in the NFL. 

No knock on Donald.  He is amazing, and certainly the best pure DT of the last 10, maybe 20 years at least.  He is on pace to challenge a lot of records.  But while the sample size is far smaller for Mahomes so far, what I see suggests he could be transcendent.  Maybe it's surrounding talent and/or coaching, but I think it's more than just that.  I see a guy who after just two seasons, makes me want to watch every game he plays because I sense that if he keeps this level of play up for a decade, he could finally end all the debate around who the GOAT is at QB, which would be an amazing thing.

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2 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

See, if that's the case I think it pretty much has to be the best pass rusher in the NFL. If I can't pick a QB I gotta pick the player best situated to stop other teams QBs. No WR is truly worth as much as an elite pass rusher. Answer would probably be Nick Bosa, Myles Garrett or Aaron Donald.

In this NFL I’d go with chain movers or elite OTs then passrushers. You can negate a passrusher with a good oline and players that move the chains quickly. Thomas averaged 6 first downs a game and McCaf 7. That’s more important in my opinion then a player that averages 1 sack or less a game. Just my opinion 

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16 hours ago, Greenseed4 said:

Christian McCaffrey.

116 receptions, 1006 yards, 4 TDs

287 rushes, 1387 yards, 15 TDs 

Plus Olivia Culpo

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Khalil Mack still has to be in the discussion. He’s one of the most dominant players Ive seen 

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Christian McCaffrey.
116 receptions, 1006 yards, 4 TDs
287 rushes, 1387 yards, 15 TDs 


I can’t believe it took almost 3 pages for this post. It’s obvious it’s McCaffrey.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

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23 hours ago, HawkeyeJet said:

That's not the question. Or at least how I interpret "best". The question isn't who is the most valuable.  Or who I would take first.

Aaron Donald is a better DT than Mahomes is a QB.  Aaron Donald is quite possibly the best player at his position of all time. He might even be in the discussion for best defensive player of all time.  At this point, you couldn't make that argument for Mahomes, and possibly never will.

I also disagree the difference between Donald and other defensive tackles(although you compare him to other positions) and Mahomes and other QBs is a bigger gap in favor of Mahomes.

Aaron Donald or JJ Watt pre injuries?

JJ is the best defensive player I have seen since LT and Reggie White.

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It's Aaron Donald and it's not even close. He's been the best non-QB player in the league for 2 or 3 years now. 

In terms of the player who is the most above the rest at his position, I think Kittle might be more better than the rest of the TEs than Donald is better than the rest of DTs. But as mentioned, Donald is simply the best overall player in the league not names Patrick Mahomes. 

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Danielle Hunter

 

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32 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

It's Aaron Donald and it's not even close. He's been the best non-QB player in the league for 2 or 3 years now. 

In terms of the player who is the most above the rest at his position, I think Kittle might be more better than the rest of the TEs than Donald is better than the rest of DTs. But as mentioned, Donald is simply the best overall player in the league not names Patrick Mahomes. 

The big unknown (for me) with Kittle is if Gronk returns and is healthy, Kittle may not even be the best TE this year.  Gronk at his peak was dominant at the position by a wider margin than Kittle is right now.  And is Kittle really THAT much better than Travis Kelce?  

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2 hours ago, nycdan said:

The big unknown (for me) with Kittle is if Gronk returns and is healthy, Kittle may not even be the best TE this year.  Gronk at his peak was dominant at the position by a wider margin than Kittle is right now.  And is Kittle really THAT much better than Travis Kelce?  

In the run game and in terms of pass protection, Kittle is far and away the best TE in the game. In terms of being a receiving option, he's either 1A or 1B with Kelce, and certainly a better route runner with more speed than Gronk. His ability to catch and run make him a threat anywhere, and it's not like there's really anyone else for opposing defenses to key in on when he checks in as an eligible receiver. Kittle has already put up monster catch and yardage numbers to begin his career. TDs aren't there yet, but he also plays in a run-first offense and doesn't get to catch passes from Mahomes or Brady.

Gronk was the best I've ever seen do it, but his prime was a few years ago, and between all of the injuries and retirement (and being off the PEDs/HGH all of last year), he's a big IF this year. 

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1 hour ago, greenwichjetfan said:

In the run game and in terms of pass protection, Kittle is far and away the best TE in the game. In terms of being a receiving option, he's either 1A or 1B with Kelce, and certainly a better route runner with more speed than Gronk. His ability to catch and run make him a threat anywhere, and it's not like there's really anyone else for opposing defenses to key in on when he checks in as an eligible receiver. Kittle has already put up monster catch and yardage numbers to begin his career. TDs aren't there yet, but he also plays in a run-first offense and doesn't get to catch passes from Mahomes or Brady.

Gronk was the best I've ever seen do it, but his prime was a few years ago, and between all of the injuries and retirement (and being off the PEDs/HGH all of last year), he's a big IF this year. 

Fair enough.  Gronk is certainly past his prime, but I don't think I can put Kittle today above Gronk of 5 years ago.  Damn close though.

Here's another name to watch.  Mark Andrews.  He showed he can do it all at a high level and he could give the other guys a real run for their money if he stays healthy this season.

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18 hours ago, nycdan said:

Fair enough.  Gronk is certainly past his prime, but I don't think I can put Kittle today above Gronk of 5 years ago.  Damn close though.

Here's another name to watch.  Mark Andrews.  He showed he can do it all at a high level and he could give the other guys a real run for their money if he stays healthy this season.

I agree with you about Gronk of 5 years ago - but I was more answering the question as of today. As I said, Gronk is the best I've ever seen at that position. However, give Kittle a few more years and a better QB and I think he has a real chance to get close to or even surpass Gronk. I absolutely love Kittle.

Andrews is legit, but I think he's a strong receiving option who has great chemistry with the league MVP in an offense that highlights the RBs and TEs. He's incomplete so far because he's so young and we've only really seen him shine with LJax, but my suspicion is that he'll go up and down depending on how LJax plays. 

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