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Having trouble finding reasons not to trade for Ngakoue and sign him


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He could probably be had for a 2, or maybe one of those low 1s we got from Seattle.  That replaces Jamal's pass rush production and that was his main role last season.  And we still have the other picks we got for him.  Edge rush is a premium position, if you're gonna pay someone you pay that position, not safety.  The guy is the real deal as an edge rusher, good speed around the edge and a motor you can't coach that doesn't stop until the whistle.  He's durable too, never misses a game, he's like the anti-John Abraham in that department.

Just makes too much sense.

Make it happen Joe D.

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5 hours ago, jetscrazey said:

He could probably be had for a 2, or maybe one of those low 1s we got from Seattle.  That replaces Jamal's pass rush production and that was his main role last season.  And we still have the other picks we got for him.  Edge rush is a premium position, if you're gonna pay someone you pay that position, not safety.  The guy is the real deal as an edge rusher, good speed around the edge and a motor you can't coach that doesn't stop until the whistle.  He's durable too, never misses a game, he's like the anti-John Abraham in that department.

Just makes too much sense.

Make it happen Joe D.

Funny. I was thinking something similar when I first heard of the trade. Sending the Hawks 1st to the Jags for Yannick would be like trading Jamal for Yannick, a first, a third and Mcdouble.  Not too shabby. 

But I think the problem is that he also wants $20 mil.  I don't think JD is in the market for a guy like that at the moment.  I see him as grabbing his own Edge rusher next year or grabbing a guy like Vinny Currie off of the FA heap for one season.  It would be fun to have him though.  But I don't see it. 

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9 minutes ago, slats said:

The Jets have too much work to do on offense to trade a high pick and spend $20M/year on any defensive player. Trading for Ngakoue would be short-sighted and probably, ultimately a mistake. 

This, especially with bell and Mosley still on the payroll.  Douglas definitely understands his time horizon to build a winner and unlike every other jets gm, he isn’t panicking or ruining the cap.  That said, ngakoue is the kind of player you would want to pay, young and productive.  

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Here's a good reason not to go get him, beyond his spat with the owner.  He's limited, athletically:

yannick-ngakoue-ras-13105.png?w=1170&ssl

 

Yes, its possible to be a productive pass rusher despite average athleticism.  Demarcus Lawrence and Matt Judon come to mind.  Pay careful attention to what's going on with those 2, however:  Lawrence just put up a mere 5 sacks in 16 games for Dallas last season, and Judon is soon to be on his way out in Baltimore despite a Pro Bowl season.  And he's a better athlete than both Lawrence and Ngakoue.

Nagakoue's success thus far is not sustainable.  He won't be successful for long in this league, even if you aren't worried about his character/personality.  Not worth the financial investment OR the draft capital to get him.

Given JD's apparent reliance on advanced analytics (the Zuniga pick demonstrated that) AND how important athleticism is at the EDGE position, this is not the type of guy I see Douglas going after, even IF Ngakoue hadn't been behaving in a fashion as Adams lately.  

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4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Here's a good reason not to go get him, beyond his spat with the owner.  He's limited, athletically:

yannick-ngakoue-ras-13105.png?w=1170&ssl

 

Yes, its possible to be a productive pass rusher despite average athleticism.  Demarcus Lawrence and Matt Judon come to mind.

But it's not sustainable.  He won't be successful for long in this league.  Not worth the financial investment OR the draft capital to get him.

Given JD's apparent reliance on advanced analytics (the Zuniga pick demonstrated that) AND how important athleticism is at the EDGE position, this is not the type of guy I see Douglas going after, even IF Ngakoue hadn't been behaving in a fashion as Adams lately.  

You have the stats to back up my point here......If Zuniga is the player we think, 7-10 sacks should be easy. Especially if Q wakes up.

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12 minutes ago, section314 said:

You have the stats to back up my point here......If Zuniga is the player we think, 7-10 sacks should be easy. Especially if Q wakes up.

Yep.  Juxtapose the above on Ngakoue with Zuniga below.  Imagine if Zuniga can remain healthy!

 

Jabari-Zuniga-RAS-19387.png?w=806&ssl=1

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4 hours ago, RichardTodd27 said:

Seems like we now have the ammo do get this guy.

But my question is: Is Ngakgoue really that good? $20 Million for a guy that gets 10 sacks a year?

And with uncertainty regarding 2021, 2022 salary cap..

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16 minutes ago, section314 said:

You have the stats to back up my point here......If Zuniga is the player we think, 7-10 sacks should be easy. Especially if Q wakes up.

You bring up QWill which is true. The wake up part is a bit harsh. He was a rookie that played on a bad ankle. #3 pick or not let’s give him some time. 

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5 hours ago, slats said:

The Jets have too much work to do on offense to trade a high pick and spend $20M/year on any defensive player. Trading for Ngakoue would be short-sighted and probably, ultimately a mistake. 

Getting a pass rusher is a necessity.  You need 3 things to be a winner in the NFL a Franchise QB, a Franchise LT and an above average to Franchise pass rusher.   So if the options prior to the trade was:

 

1.  Keep Adams and sign him for 17-19 mill a year

or

2. Trade Adams and a 4th for 2 #1's, a 3rd Round pick and McDougald 

or

3. Trade Adams and a 4th for 2 #1's, a 3rd Round pick and McDougald then turn around Trade 2 #1 for Ngakoue and pay him 20 million. 

 

#3 seems like the absolute best option.   everybody is worried about paying salaries,and calling paying Ngakoue short sighted is short sighted. At the end of the day players have got to get paid. And a QB, LT and Pass rusher are a must.   If Jamaal Adams was an all pro pass rusher, he'd have been paid. With Sam here and Bechton here, and with Mosley coming back from injury and easily picking up the slack for what Jamaal did in the box adding the pass rusher like Ngakoue is a smart move. While still having an extra 1, an extra 3 and McDougald filling in the coverageat Safety for Adams.

Adams lined up at LB an exuberant amount more than he would have this year with Mosley back.   

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No. We are trying to build the best culture in all of sports. No more divas. Plus, we still have work to do on offense. Next year’s OT and WR class is just as good as this past draft’s class. We can get another OT and WR early. Then grab a RB with one of the thirds. Offense would be serious business after that.

We can use our 2nd and other 3rd on an edge and corner. 

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4 minutes ago, C Mart said:

You bring up QWill which is true. The wake up part is a bit harsh. He was a rookie that played on a bad ankle. #3 pick or not let’s give him some time. 

I don't think its "waking up" moreso that he is what he is.  There's no monster to awaken.  More like he's a very good run stuffer who won't really get to the QB; or at least will never be a elite or high end pass-rushing DT.  His measurables don't demonstrate a high ceiling in the pass rushing department, sadly.  IE he's someone you don't use a top 5 pick on, ever.  

Thanks Macc.

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Why hasn’t he been traded yet? Seems kind of weird. He’s an unrestricted free agent next year so I wouldn’t go crazy in giving up a lot of assets for him. I’d hope to sign him next year. I wouldn’t mind giving him a big contract, he’s young and puts up a ton of sacks. 

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2 minutes ago, Rhg1084 said:

Why hasn’t he been traded yet? Seems kind of weird. He’s an unrestricted free agent next year so I wouldn’t go crazy in giving up a lot of assets for him. I’d hope to sign him next year. I wouldn’t mind giving him a big contract, he’s young and puts up a ton of sacks. 

Getting into a Twitter battle with the owner is a bit weird too.  Might play a role.

Not everybody can jedi mindtrick teams into giving up two first rounders for a malcontent like Joe Douglas just did.

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10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I don't think its "waking up" moreso that he is what he is.  There's no monster to awaken.  More like he's a very good run stuffer who won't really get to the QB; or at least will never be a elite or high end pass-rushing DT.  His measurables don't demonstrate a high ceiling in the pass rushing department, sadly.  IE he's someone you don't use a top 5 pick on, ever.  

Thanks Macc.

Not sure what the “no monster to awaken” and “his measurables don’t demonstrate a high ceiling” mean. But no biggie. 

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4 minutes ago, C Mart said:

Not sure what the “no monster to awaken” and “his measurables don’t demonstrate a high ceiling” mean. But no biggie. 

It means that athleticism is critical to being a great/elite pass rusher, especially at DT.  Aaron Donald and Ed Oliver, for instance, have off the charts athleticism.

It doesn't GUARANTEE a DT will become a great pass rusher, but it keeps the door open.

Leonard Williams, meanwhile, was more average in athleticism, and we saw how that played out:  Leo was a very good run stuffer without much of a pass rush to speak of.  Quinnen is a lot closer to Leo than he is Aaron Donald.

Macc never put any stock into measurables/advanced analytics in his tenure, and it showed.  You can't keep drafting athletic slugs (like Lorenzo Mauldin and Jachai Polite) and expect any of them to turn out well as pass rushers.  Leo and Quinnen aren't slugs, but they're not anything close to elite athletes either.

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Jesus, It's NOT Fantasy Football.

Let's give Williams a chance to whip up the defense with the roster he's had given him by Douglass.

Mosely and Williamson are back: they are very good. Onwuasor and Zuniga have been added. Burgess, Hewitt, Luvu and Basham showed promise, getting minutes last season under fire. Jenkins got 8 sacks.  QW will/should be better getting more mature, stronger, and not limping around on a bad ankle. The pass rush will be JUST FINE. It will be the second year in this defensive system for the whole roster: that in itself should make for improvement - or at least not losing ground. (It will be way worse for all the teams with new coaches putting in new schemes with next-to-no training camps.)

I expect the offense to improve (it would be difficult to be worse) with a better line, better/faster speed at WR, and the returning TE's (which may be more important than high-end wideouts - check out how many top flight TE's happen to be on teams that go deep into the playoffs/to the SB.) Playing with an occasional lead, better field position (fewer four and outs, a better punter,) all will contribute to a defense that won't be thrust on the field in bad field position with no rest. The defense will be better because the offense will buy them rest, field position and a lead, enabling them to be more aggressive. 

Statistically, it will be almost impossible to have as bad an injury list as we had last year - if IRC, it was the second worst number of games lost to IR in the Super Bowl era.

I don't want ANY free agents at this point that aren't bargains. NONE. Offense or defense. There's no predicting what the cap will be like next year - just most assuredly lower than this year, so keeping some space and being flexible might be prudent. Talented cuts - selectively picked up - from other teams, or good bargains are what I want. Enough with the overpriced FA acquisitions. Overpaying once and a while can be overlooked. Making it a constant practice makes you suck, as does drafting poorly. I hope Douglass avoids both.

 

Just my :2c:

 

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4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It means that athleticism is critical to being a great/elite pass rusher, especially at DT.  Aaron Donald and Ed Oliver, for instance, have off the charts athleticism.

It doesn't GUARANTEE a DT will become a great pass rusher, but it keeps the door open.

Leonard Williams, meanwhile, was more average in athleticism, and we saw how that played out:  Leo was a very good run stuffer without much of a pass rush to speak of.  Quinnen is a lot closer to Leo than he is Aaron Donald.

Macc never put any stock into measurables/advanced analytics in his tenure, and it showed.  You can't keep drafting athletic slugs (like Lorenzo Mauldin and Jachai Polite) and expect any of them to turn out well as pass rushers.  Leo and Quinnen aren't slugs, but they're not anything close to elite athletes either.

 I know there’s more to being athletic than the 40 but...

https://www.nfl.com/news/quinnen-williams-one-of-fastest-300-pounders-in-combine-history-0ap3000001020693

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5 minutes ago, C Mart said:

 

Yes, there's a lot more to it.  40 time is probably the least meaningful piece to the puzzle. 

The 3-Cone drill is most important.  Quinnen didn't participate in that test, and in this instance, that was likely very intentional.  

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