So, there seems to be only 4 realistic starting OL combos now

[#27TheDominator]

5 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

Has Van Roten ever played RT?

All the film I've seen has him a LT with Carolina.

 

You mean LG, right?  Seems like another play to the whistle guy.  Interesting that they'd have him mic'd up.  I haven't paid attention to that sh*t lately, but didn't they only used to do that for stars and trash talkers?  Van Roten doesn't seem like either.  Seems like the type of guy that is good to have on the team, but we probably won't love him as a starter.

[jetstream23]

7 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

You mean LG, right?  Seems like another play to the whistle guy.  Interesting that they'd have him mic'd up.  I haven't paid attention to that sh*t lately, but didn't they only used to do that for stars and trash talkers?  Van Roten doesn't seem like either.  Seems like the type of guy that is good to have on the team, but we probably won't love him as a starter.

Yes, I meant RG and LG in my post. Total brain fart typo. 

[FidelioJet]

That’s very scary. 
 

 

[bitonti]

On 8/5/2020 at 12:42 PM, playtowinthegame said:

I know you're a OL evaluator, and I'd like to know which Jets offensive line group you feel would be the most cohesive to start the season?

believe it or not the one with Winters/Edoga was the most cohesive

McDermott at RG might be slightly more cohesive than GVR but they need to rip off the bandaid and start 3-4 new starters and hope the lineup stabilizes 

just to be clear a team that starts new players at 4 of 5 positions is going to be sloppy, especially without a mini-camp/offseason etc

after the winters cut I have them at 32nd overall 

[playtowinthegame]

25 minutes ago, bitonti said:

believe it or not the one with Winters/Edoga was the most cohesive

McDermott at RG might be slightly more cohesive than GVR but they need to rip off the bandaid and start 3-4 new starters and hope the lineup stabilizes 

just to be clear a team that starts new players at 4 of 5 positions is going to be sloppy, especially without a mini-camp/offseason etc

after the winters cut I have them at 32nd overall 

You are currently rating the Jets 2020 offensive line the worst in the league? I am no o-line expert, but I think they're better than that @bitonti. 

[bitonti]

2 minutes ago, playtowinthegame said:

You are currently rating the Jets 2020 offensive line the worst in the league? I am no o-line expert, but I think they're better than that @bitonti. 

based on what exactly

every team got healthier 

every team drafted and added etc. 

teams don't replace 4 out of 5 starters because they are good

keep in mind this is a running tally and gets updated every week based on injury 

after 4 weeks playing together they get full cohesion etc 

this is where they are right now 

[playtowinthegame]

Just now, bitonti said:

based on what exactly

every team got healthier 

every team drafted and added etc. 

teams don't replace 4 out of 5 starters because they are good

 

Sir, may I see your 32 offensive line rankings?

[bitonti]

9 minutes ago, playtowinthegame said:

Sir, may I see your 32 offensive line rankings?

Rank		Team			Score	Ovr	Run	Pas 	Cohesion	Coach
1		Las Vegas		34.88	A+	A+	A		5.0		5.0
2		Indianapolis		34.40	A+	A+	A		5.0		4.5
3		New Orleans		33.88	A+	A	A+		4.0		5.0
4		Philadelphia		33.55	A+	A	A+		4.4		4.5
5		Baltimore		33.50	A+	A+	A		4.0		5.0
6		Kansas City		32.45	A	A-	A+		3.8		4.5
7		Atlanta			32.40	A	A+	A-		5.0		4.5
8		Pittsburgh		32.20	A	A+	A-		4.0		3.5
9		Houston			31.68	A-	A-	A-		5.0		4.0
10		Chicago			31.65	A-	A	B+		5.0		4.5
11		Dallas			31.53	A-	A	B+		4.6		4.0
12		Jacksonville		31.30	B+	A	C+		5.0		4.0
13		Green Bay		31.18	B+	B+	A		4.0		4.0
14		Tennessee		30.80	B	B+	B-		4.0		4.0
15		Tampa Bay		30.80	B	B-	B+		4.0		4.0
16		San Francisco		30.78	B	B-	B+		3.5		4.5
17		LA Rams			30.53	B	B+	B-		5.0		4.5
18		Cleveland		30.38	B	B+	B-		3.0		5.0
19		Buffalo			30.33	B-	B	C+		4.0		3.5
20		LA Chargers		30.03	B-	C+	B		2.6		4.0
21		Minnesota		30.03	B-	B	C+		5.0		4.5
22		Detroit			29.78	C+	B-	C		4.0		4.5
23		New England		29.73	C+	B-	C		4.0		3.0
24		Washington		29.59	C+	B-	C		3.5		4.5
25		Carolina		29.30	C+	B-	C		2.0		4.0
26		Arizona			28.68	C+	C+	C+		3.4		4.5
27		Seattle			28.03	C	B-	C-		2.0		4.5
28		Cincinnati		27.75	C-	D+	C		3.7		4.0
29		Denver			27.70	C-	C-	C-		3.2		5.0
30		Miami			27.68	C-	C-	C-		3.0		4.0
31		NY Giants		27.65	C-	C	D+		3.0		4.5
32		NY Jets			26.40	D+	C-	D		1.0		4.5

 

 

 

for further context here's the Jets individual scores

tackles count 2x guards. centers count 1.5x guards.

also note rookies are graded by Slots i.e. 1st rd B 2nd rd B- etc  because there's no actual film to grade them 

				Run	Pass 	Ovr 	Cohesion	Team Score
LT	M. Becton		3	3	3	0			26.4
LG	A. Lewis		3.5	3	3.25	5	
C	C. McGovern		3	3.5	3.25	0	
RG	G. Van Roten		3	3	3	0	
RT	G. Fant			2.5	3.5	3	0	
S OT	C. Edoga			2.75		
Cohesion						1		4 new starters - potentially 3 (RT battle)
OL Coach	Frank Pollack			4.5		
Depth	J. Harrison					
Depth	C. McDermot.					
Depth	J. Andrews					
Depth	C. Clark					

 

here's how cohesion is defined: 

 

Quote

Cohesion

• Started last year for the same team at the same spot (4 games or more) - 5.0/5
• Started last year for the same team at a different spot - 4.0/5
• Started last year for the same team at the same spot (4 games or less) - 3.5/5
• Played last year for the same team at the same spot - 3.0/5
• Played last year for the same team but never at this spot - 2.5/5
• Started with the same team in the past (for at least a season) at the same spot - 2.0/5
• Played with the same team in the past (for at least a season) at the same spot - 1.5/5
• Played with the same team in the past (for less than a season) at any spot - 1.0/5
• Played with the same team in the past (for at least a season) but never at this spot - 1.0/5
• Never played with this team before - 0.0/5

Each player's cohesion goes up 1 point each week they start (to a max of 5) and up 0.5 each week they are active but don't start (to a max of 4).

The team's average cohesion for that week is the average of the five starters.

 

[playtowinthegame]

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Rank		Team			Score	Ovr	Run	Pas 	Cohesion	Coach
1		Las Vegas		34.88	A+	A+	A		5.0		5.0
2		Indianapolis		34.40	A+	A+	A		5.0		4.5
3		New Orleans		33.88	A+	A	A+		4.0		5.0
4		Philadelphia		33.55	A+	A	A+		4.4		4.5
5		Baltimore		33.50	A+	A+	A		4.0		5.0
6		Kansas City		32.45	A	A-	A+		3.8		4.5
7		Atlanta			32.40	A	A+	A-		5.0		4.5
8		Pittsburgh		32.20	A	A+	A-		4.0		3.5
9		Houston			31.68	A-	A-	A-		5.0		4.0
10		Chicago			31.65	A-	A	B+		5.0		4.5
11		Dallas			31.53	A-	A	B+		4.6		4.0
12		Jacksonville		31.30	B+	A	C+		5.0		4.0
13		Green Bay		31.18	B+	B+	A		4.0		4.0
14		Tennessee		30.80	B	B+	B-		4.0		4.0
15		Tampa Bay		30.80	B	B-	B+		4.0		4.0
16		San Francisco		30.78	B	B-	B+		3.5		4.5
17		LA Rams			30.53	B	B+	B-		5.0		4.5
18		Cleveland		30.38	B	B+	B-		3.0		5.0
19		Buffalo			30.33	B-	B	C+		4.0		3.5
20		LA Chargers		30.03	B-	C+	B		2.6		4.0
21		Minnesota		30.03	B-	B	C+		5.0		4.5
22		Detroit			29.78	C+	B-	C		4.0		4.5
23		New England		29.73	C+	B-	C		4.0		3.0
24		Washington		29.59	C+	B-	C		3.5		4.5
25		Carolina		29.30	C+	B-	C		2.0		4.0
26		Arizona			28.68	C+	C+	C+		3.4		4.5
27		Seattle			28.03	C	B-	C-		2.0		4.5
28		Cincinnati		27.75	C-	D+	C		3.7		4.0
29		Denver			27.70	C-	C-	C-		3.2		5.0
30		Miami			27.68	C-	C-	C-		3.0		4.0
31		NY Giants		27.65	C-	C	D+		3.0		4.5
32		NY Jets			26.40	D+	C-	D		1.0		4.5

 

 

 

for further context here's the Jets individual scores

tackles count 2x guards. centers count 1.5x guards.

also note rookies are graded by Slots i.e. 1st rd B 2nd rd B- etc  because there's no actual film to grade them 

				Run	Pass 	Ovr 	Cohesion	Team Score
LT	M. Becton		3	3	3	0			26.4
LG	A. Lewis		3.5	3	3.25	5	
C	C. McGovern		3	3.5	3.25	0	
RG	G. Van Roten		3	3	3	0	
RT	G. Fant			2.5	3.5	3	0	
S OT	C. Edoga			2.75		
Cohesion						1		4 new starters - potentially 3 (RT battle)
OL Coach	Frank Pollack			4.5		
Depth	J. Harrison					
Depth	C. McDermot.					
Depth	J. Andrews					
Depth	C. Clark					

 

Thanks for sharing. I guess we'll need Darnold to channel his inner Fran Tarkenton this season. 

[bitonti]

13 minutes ago, playtowinthegame said:

Thanks for sharing. I guess we'll need Darnold to channel his inner Fran Tarkenton this season. 

so it looks worse than it is 

if the Jets stay healthy for 4 weeks and a lineup becomes predictable their score raises, significantly, they could be in the 28 or 29 region

while other teams get less healthy, they get knocked down and other teams move up just by being quiet

it's rare that in season individual grades get revisited but it happens for first round picks who play amazing (Quenton Nelson for example held his B grade for like 1 actual game). What I'm trying to say is Becton has All Pro Upside so that could be something that raises the score

overall tho they lack elite talent and some huge questions still (can George Fant even play RT?)

the value of my grades by the way is not looking at OL list in a vacuum and arguing whether they are 32nd or 26th or whatever

what I do also is grade the defensive front seven for pass rushing and run stopping and then look at both lists on a week to week basis

it becomes important when there's huge disparities i.e. 1st ranked OL vs last ranked defensive front 

it can also be cool to watch the 1st ranked OL face the 1st ranked DL (play the under)

for those wondering, Strong safeties are not included in the DL rankings (and TE aren't included in the OL rankings) 

 

[#27TheDominator]

@bitonti, you really like Pollack?  Are those coach ranking related to offensive line coaches only?   I did not have a good feeling about Pollack based on his last stint, but I guess he is well respected.  FWIW I liked Dennison better.  Seems you may have them ranked the same.

[Philc1]

1 hour ago, playtowinthegame said:

You are currently rating the Jets 2020 offensive line the worst in the league? I am no o-line expert, but I think they're better than that @bitonti. 

Giants, Patriots, Cardinals, Dolphins are all way worse just off the top of my head

[bitonti]

8 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

@bitonti, you really like Pollack?  Are those coach ranking related to offensive line coaches only?   I did not have a good feeling about Pollack based on his last stint, but I guess he is well respected.  FWIW I liked Dennison better.  Seems you may have them ranked the same.

They are both high quality coaches but not quite in the Munchak, Dante Scar tier. 

without looking it up Pollack was on the Cowboys' staff during the 2015-16 season which was a historically dominant unit

[Philc1]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

based on what exactly

every team got healthier 

every team drafted and added etc. 

teams don't replace 4 out of 5 starters because they are good

keep in mind this is a running tally and gets updated every week based on injury 

after 4 weeks playing together they get full cohesion etc 

this is where they are right now 

Giants and Patriots have had starters opt out and weren’t good to begin with.  Cardinals OL isn’t good.  Dolphins OL isn’t good

[bitonti]

1 minute ago, Philc1 said:

Giants, Patriots, Cardinals, Dolphins are all way worse just off the top of my head

The Jets don't have a Joe Thuney 

cards and fins are similar but they are all pretty bad units

it's not like the Jets are brimming with elite talent

they just made the most changes and the model penalizes that in the short run 

i think it's fair to expect a brand new line 4 out of 5 guys to need time to gel 

and this year they aren't really getting that time 

[Philc1]

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

The Jets don't have a Joe Thuney 

cards and fins are similar but they are all pretty bad units

it's not like the Jets are brimming with elite talent

they just made the most changes and the model penalizes that in the short run 

i think it's fair to expect a brand new line 4 out of 5 guys to need time to gel 

and this year they aren't really getting that time 

Thuney is overrated.  Let’s see him without Scarnechia coaching him up and the refs looking the other way when he holds on 3rd and long

[bitonti]

19 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Thuney is overrated.  Let’s see him without Scarnechia coaching him up and the refs looking the other way when he holds on 3rd and long

perhaps the onus should be on you to make the case that the Jets line is good rather than the contrary

what evidence do we have that it's better? The investment is positive it also shows how bad it got that much investment was required at once

 George Fant at RT i am not convinced. last year JD signed Ryan Kalil for 8 mil how did that fa signing go? 

they have interesting new left tackle who is incredibly raw they have a solid steady eddy center and a RT battle. the only returning starter is Lewis at LG. Conor McDermott is the only RG with RG experience on the roster. GVR, Andrews and Harrison have never played RG before 

it's just a ton of turnover for any team 

half the board by the way wants Becton to start at RT 

i do believe they will not end the year at 32nd but there's too much uncertainty for this to be considered a decent or even good line 

[JohnnyLV]

It would not likely be elite but there is enough talent for it to be Top 15

[Riggins]

On 8/5/2020 at 8:03 AM, Sarge4Tide said:

With Winters gone, there are now only 4 realistic starting offensive line combos (barring injury, illness, or some other bad outcome)

OPTION 1

LT - Becton
LG - Lewis
C - McGovern
RG - Van Roten
RT - Fant

OPTION 2

LT - Becton
LG - Van Roten
C - McGovern
RG - Lewis
RT - Fant

OPTION 3

LT - Fant
LG - Lewis
C - McGovern
RG - Van Roten
RT - Becton

OPTION 4

LT - Fant
LG - Van Roten
C - McGovern
RG - Lewis
RT - Becton

One thing to remember is that Lewis is a good player but fragile, he will last 4. - 6 maybe 8 games, at that point

you probably see two rookies starting.

[Philc1]

On 8/6/2020 at 5:17 PM, bitonti said:

perhaps the onus should be on you to make the case that the Jets line is good rather than the contrary

what evidence do we have that it's better? The investment is positive it also shows how bad it got that much investment was required at once

 George Fant at RT i am not convinced. last year JD signed Ryan Kalil for 8 mil how did that fa signing go? 

they have interesting new left tackle who is incredibly raw they have a solid steady eddy center and a RT battle. the only returning starter is Lewis at LG. Conor McDermott is the only RG with RG experience on the roster. GVR, Andrews and Harrison have never played RG before 

it's just a ton of turnover for any team 

half the board by the way wants Becton to start at RT 

i do believe they will not end the year at 32nd but there's too much uncertainty for this to be considered a decent or even good line 

We have 4 different starters this season including a 1st round pick who is the biggest player in the nfl who has the same 40 time as Brick who was 80 lbs lighter

 

Neither of us knows how the jet OL is but to say it’s as bad as last year is very ESPNey of you

[bitonti]

I do not judge the line like Jets good Jets bad

I grade every single lineman in the league 5 starters and the swing tackle. I grade them on cohesion which is a value of how familiar the players are with each other and the system. I update these grades weekly to account for injury.

It didn't just say the Jets stink oh well. There's an excel model I put all the numbers in and this is the result. The jets came out 32nd because of their extreme amount of turnover and lack of elite players.

Becton being bigger than brick doesn't mean anything. They both have to learn how to block. People forget how up and down brick was from day 1. Mangold was a beast. Brick took 3 years

This line could be a decent unit one day. Right now they are 4 or 5 strangers who have never played together

We have 4 different starters this season including a 1st round pick who is the biggest player in the nfl who has the same 40 time as Brick who was 80 lbs lighter
 
Neither of us knows how the jet OL is but to say it’s as bad as last year is very ESPNey of you

Sent from my Pixel 2 using JetNation.com mobile app

[whodeawhodat]

FWIW, the post voted for option 1

 

This offseason, Douglas signed Connor McGovern to play center, Van Roten to play right guard and George Fant to play right tackle. He drafted Mekhi Becton in the first round to be the new left tackle and brought back Lewis, who emerged as a starter early last season.