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Big Ten is Back(almost)

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31 minutes ago, predator_05 said:

Science and medicine aren't exactly independent from the pull of money and politics. 

Resumption of sports is one step closer towards normalcy. Challenge for administrators is finding that happy medium where they sustain awareness around the pandemic, while keeping commercial interests intact by resuming football season.

College football is too big a business to be shut down, but it'll likely resume in a very different form, just to drive home the message. 

If it’s a business then pay the players and let them unionize.  They are employees of a multi billion industry

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7 hours ago, kelticwizard said:

Anymore glossing over of 180,000 deaths while you're at it?

How do you know you don't have underlying conditions?  Half the people with diabetes don't even know it. A big percentage of people have other undiagnosed conditions.  Are you saying it's their own fault for catching Covid?

I'm not glossing over anything -- I'm just using the CDC's own data to show how infinitely small the probability is of a healthy college athlete dying from this virus.  If you want to change the argument to "but what about all those helpless people they may infect" that's your prerogative.  But please at least acknowledge that half those deaths occurred in nursing homes -- I'm not sure why those people care if kids play football or not.

In response to your closing question, I DO believe people are often responsible for catching COVID -- I admit I was.  I didn't take all the precautions I could have and ended up in the hospital with double pneumonia.  The difference I don't blame "someone else" for me getting sick.  It's common knowledge we are an obese nation -- just because someone doesn't officially know they have diabetes, heart disease, compromised immunity, etc. is no excuse to not be cautious in today's environment.  

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3 minutes ago, OCCH23 said:

I'm not glossing over anything -- I'm just using the CDC's own data to show how infinitely small the probability is of a healthy college athlete dying from this virus.  If you want to change the argument to "but what about all those helpless people they may infect" that's your prerogative.  But please at least acknowledge that half those deaths occurred in nursing homes -- I'm not sure why those people care if kids play football or not.

In response to your closing question, I DO believe people are often responsible for catching COVID -- I admit I was.  I didn't take all the precautions I could have and ended up in the hospital with double pneumonia.  The difference I don't blame "someone else" for me getting sick.  It's common knowledge we are an obese nation -- just because someone doesn't officially know they have diabetes, heart disease, compromised immunity, etc. is no excuse to not be cautious in today's environment.  

The college athletes can still give the virus to other students and their family members who have medical comorbidities

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13 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

The college athletes can still give the virus to other students and their family members who have medical comorbidities

And they can't if they don't play football?

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Iowa is right now a hotspot. I heard a commentator on one of the news channels talking about it and saying the upcoming Iowa State football game in two weeks (not Big Ten) is scheduled to allow a crowd of 25K. And then the commentor talked about what usually happens around a college football game: parties, no distancing with people, yelling and screaming, no masks or few masks. IMO I can live without it for a year. And now the President of the United States is trying to push the Big Ten into reopening. Funny he's not doing this with other conferences like the Pac 12. 

 

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Look some people are saying you're weak if you follow the guidelines on masks distancing etc. And stay away from crowded places, etc. Like football stadiums.  IMO it's the exact opposite. For a year we can get tough and adapt which means give up some of our luxuries. You fight it not give into it. Don't accept thousands of deaths. And why so much lying on this. Including on number of COVID deaths. 

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1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

We’re here exactly because we ignored the science six months ago.

Please explain?

We've had this virus here for 6+ months, and to our knowledge < .02 of the population got infected (at least to the point of getting sick enough to be recorded).

So is the virus nowhere near as contagious as they say?  Or did people do a good job of keeping it in check?

 

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1 hour ago, Rangers9 said:

Look some people are saying you're weak if you follow the guidelines on masks distancing etc. And stay away from crowded places, etc. Like football stadiums.  IMO it's the exact opposite. For a year we can get tough and adapt which means give up some of our luxuries. You fight it not give into it. Don't accept thousands of deaths. And why so much lying on this. Including on number of COVID deaths. 

Yet we should accept lost jobs, lost businesses, divorce, suicide, abused children, mental disorders and homelessness?  No offense, but it's very insensitive to tell a guy to "get tough and adapt" when he doesn't know how he's going to feed his three children or keep a roof over their head.  

And if there's any lying over COVID deaths, it's because they are being OVERSTATED.  People are dying of things like colon cancer (and even suicide) and counted as COVID deaths because it was technically in their system.  They openly admit they are counting deaths WITH covid, not just deaths FROM covid.  And no one seems to want to acknowledge that 1/2 the deaths were in nursing homes (NO correlation to whether society reopens or not).

You're not weak for wearing a mask -- I'd argue it's a smart decision.  But to ruin people's lives over it?  I disagree that someone's ability to care for his family should take a back seat to someone else's desire to "feel safe" . . .

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1 hour ago, OCCH23 said:

Yet we should accept lost jobs, lost businesses, divorce, suicide, abused children, mental disorders and homelessness?  No offense, but it's very insensitive to tell a guy to "get tough and adapt" when he doesn't know how he's going to feed his three children or keep a roof over their head.  

And if there's any lying over COVID deaths, it's because they are being OVERSTATED.  People are dying of things like colon cancer (and even suicide) and counted as COVID deaths because it was technically in their system.  They openly admit they are counting deaths WITH covid, not just deaths FROM covid.  And no one seems to want to acknowledge that 1/2 the deaths were in nursing homes (NO correlation to whether society reopens or not).

You're not weak for wearing a mask -- I'd argue it's a smart decision.  But to ruin people's lives over it?  I disagree that someone's ability to care for his family should take a back seat to someone else's desire to "feel safe" . . .

I don't agree with you. There does not have to be 300k deaths by the end of the year we can fight it with smart and responsible behavior. You can't fix the economy unless you have a better control over the virus. Where I live on Long Island many people and businesses are back to almost regular order because our numbers are lower like around 1% infection rate. You get it under control, so that you can stop a surge, locate who has it and isolate them until they are OK. You avoid a spread. This is how they have been successful in other countries in the world. You close up or lower services temporarily in areas under high infection like we did on Long Island. After a vaccine or better therapeutics you reopen everywhere completely. But for now no big crowds I can watch sports on TV for a year. 

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Look you test people as many as possible. The more the better. You don't know who has it unless you test most people. You can have no symptoms and still have it and spread it. That's what the scientists not what some politicians say. And testing doesn't cause more infections. That's ignorance.  It identifies them. If you know who has it you can try intelligently to isolate people to block the spread and stop epidemic like conditions. And that's why tracing. To find out contacts. If you do not know who has it you're up a river with no paddle. Along with masks and distancing it's the only leg we have to stand on because there is no vaccine or cure for this virus. So no big crowds indoors or outdoors. Look this is what has worked in other countries if you're smart you go by what works not what doesn't. The alternative is herd immunity when you go back to regular order without a vaccine, etc. And that could lead to 2 million deaths. We can avoid this and do much better than the predicted 300k deaths by Jan. It means giving up on some things temporarily which is not weak it's being tough. We don't give up we fight back intelligently. 

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2 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

I don't agree with you. There does not have to be 300k deaths by the end of the year we can fight it with smart and responsible behavior. You can't fix the economy unless you have a better control over the virus. Where I live on Long Island many people and businesses are back to almost regular order because our numbers are lower like around 1% infection rate. You get it under control, so that you can stop a surge, locate who has it and isolate them until they are OK. You avoid a spread. This is how they have been successful in other countries in the world. You close up or lower services temporarily in areas under high infection like we did on Long Island. After a vaccine or better therapeutics you reopen everywhere completely. But for now no big crowds I can watch sports on TV for a year. 

So you're OK with women and children getting physically and sexually abused?  With people attempting/committing suicide at alarming rates?  With people losing their jobs, businesses, marriages and homes?  With mental depression exploding all around us?  With the most needy among us having access to LESS resources when they need them MOST?

Don't bother answering -- I'm sure you're NOT "ok" with that.  Who would be?  But we know for a fact that these are but a few of the consequences of the path our leaders have chosen.  What started out as "flatten the curve" has turned into "eliminate the disease", regardless of how impossible that is.  If you think this virus is as contagious as they say, then those other countries haven't accomplished anything because they haven't completely eradicated it.  It is only a matter of time before they have explosions again because 1 becomes 2, becomes 4, becomes 8 becomes 16, etc. etc. pretty quickly.

The only answer to this that's fair to everyone is PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.  Let people live their lives.  Let them work.  Let them go to school. If you're concerned about getting the virus, take proper precautions.  If you don't, take responsibility for the reults. 

3,000,000 people die in this country every year, and it's sad those deaths seemingly take a back seat if "COVID" isn't attached to the death certificate . . .

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1 hour ago, OCCH23 said:

So you're OK with women and children getting physically and sexually abused?  With people attempting/committing suicide at alarming rates?  With people losing their jobs, businesses, marriages and homes?  With mental depression exploding all around us?  With the most needy among us having access to LESS resources when they need them MOST?

Don't bother answering -- I'm sure you're NOT "ok" with that.  Who would be?  But we know for a fact that these are but a few of the consequences of the path our leaders have chosen.  What started out as "flatten the curve" has turned into "eliminate the disease", regardless of how impossible that is.  If you think this virus is as contagious as they say, then those other countries haven't accomplished anything because they haven't completely eradicated it.  It is only a matter of time before they have explosions again because 1 becomes 2, becomes 4, becomes 8 becomes 16, etc. etc. pretty quickly.

The only answer to this that's fair to everyone is PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.  Let people live their lives.  Let them work.  Let them go to school. If you're concerned about getting the virus, take proper precautions.  If you don't, take responsibility for the reults. 

3,000,000 people die in this country every year, and it's sad those deaths seemingly take a back seat if "COVID" isn't attached to the death certificate . . .

I disagree with your analysis and that argument.  People are not confined to their homes there are no stay in orders anywhere. And people die of course as a normal part of everyday life but you don't need an extra 2 million added to it.  The death stats report you are talking about is a disproved conspiracy theory. On a death certificate they put things associated with the main cause of death. You might have diabetes which is a pre-existing condition for COVID mortality but the cause of death was the COVID. They would not have died without getting it. It's another trick to try to confuse people. 

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12 minutes ago, OCCH23 said:

These are problems that occur anyways but they are expanded during a pandemic. And there has been an attempt by Dems in Congress to appropriate more money for mental health etc which could help these problems. Like I said there are no lockdowns now there were earlier and people go out and in many areas services are back and running. But we should not allow a suspension of all rules and accept herd immunity. We can do it all and it’s all temporary. We don’t need millions to die. 

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2 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

These are problems that occur anyways but they are expanded during a pandemic. And there has been an attempt by Dems in Congress to appropriate more money for mental health etc which could help these problems. Like I said there are no lockdowns now there were earlier and people go out and in many areas services are back and running. But we should not allow a suspension of all rules and accept herd immunity. We can do it all and it’s all temporary. We don’t need millions to die. 

Thank you for the civilized discussion.  I'm not sure where you live, but I'm in NJ and things are definitely NOT up and running.  Our daily death toll can be counted on our fingers, but we're still acting like we're one step away from distaster.  Our leaders are consciously choosing to hurt the masses, then saying "but we have no choice!"  I (and many others) do not believe that is the case.

I'm all for wearing masks, sanitizing etc.   I just believe opening up more of the country would be a MAJOR blessing to many people, while not posing a serious threat to those who take proper precautions.  We'll just agree to disagree and go back to suffering through another Jets season (unless they wear those helmet decals, which is another debate altogether) . . . 

 

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5 hours ago, OCCH23 said:

Yet we should accept lost jobs, lost businesses, divorce, suicide, abused children, mental disorders and homelessness?  No offense, but it's very insensitive to tell a guy to "get tough and adapt" when he doesn't know how he's going to feed his three children or keep a roof over their head.  

And if there's any lying over COVID deaths, it's because they are being OVERSTATED.  People are dying of things like colon cancer (and even suicide) and counted as COVID deaths because it was technically in their system.  They openly admit they are counting deaths WITH covid, not just deaths FROM covid.  And no one seems to want to acknowledge that 1/2 the deaths were in nursing homes (NO correlation to whether society reopens or not).

You're not weak for wearing a mask -- I'd argue it's a smart decision.  But to ruin people's lives over it?  I disagree that someone's ability to care for his family should take a back seat to someone else's desire to "feel safe" . . .

I actually agree with your concern about the social and economic costs of COVID prevention. However, COVID death have not been overstated, as I cited previously. They've been understated. How do you explain the excess death figure for 7 months of 2020 at 200,000 over the average for the past three years? That number includes deaths by influenza, cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc. It's a hard cold fact that no amount of waffling by deep state conspiracy nuts and denial freaks can get around. That is the COVID cost thusfar and we are not even done with a full year. Is there a balanced equation to deal with COVID? Perhaps, but it requires a level a discipline that this country simply is not capable of. Had our government tackled this immediately and locked down for two months from February through March, the numbers would be enormously improved. Instead we got blathering and nonsense and the disease simply raged on unchecked. We are paying the high cost of social and economic disaster precisely because our leaders in Washington failed to act and now are trying desperately to call it anything but what it is: an unmitigated failure of leadership or coordination. 

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10 minutes ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

I actually agree with your concern about the social and economic costs of COVID prevention. However, COVID death have not been overstated, as I cited previously. They've been understated. How do you explain the excess death figure for 7 months of 2020 at 200,000 over the average for the past three years? That number includes deaths by influenza, cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc. It's a hard cold fact that no amount of waffling by deep state conspiracy nuts and denial freaks can get around. That is the COVID cost thusfar and we are not even done with a full year. Is there a balanced equation to deal with COVID? Perhaps, but it requires a level a discipline that this country simply is not capable of. Had our government tackled this immediately and locked down for two months from February through March, the numbers would be enormously improved. Instead we got blathering and nonsense and the disease simply raged on unchecked. We are paying the high cost of social and economic disaster precisely because our leaders in Washington failed to act and now are trying desperately to call it anything but what it is: an unmitigated failure of leadership or coordination. 

Your assumption that "excess deaths = COVID deaths" is just that -- an assumption.  You don't think there was more mental stress the past few months than before?  Less availability to get to the doctor?  Less help for the most needy?  Our entire world is different now than the past few years, why would a direct comparison be appropriate?  Add that to the fact that I've had multiple doctors tell me "if they had COVID in their system, they're listed as a COVID death" and I guess I just can't buy the idea that 200,000 people slipped through the cracks.

In regards to the virus "raging unchecked", I don't understand how it's been here 6+ months and <2% of the nation was affected (.0006 death rate).  Does that really describe a rage?  You say less would have died if they "shut everything down for two months", I say we'd be in a MUCH worse state as a nation, and those same people you "saved" in April would end up dying in August anyway.

I agree the answer is in the middle somewhere (I begrudgingly wear my mask whenever required).  But there are A LOT of hurting people out there who have no voice at all because society has decided they have to care about someone else's health more than the person himself . . .

 

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On 9/1/2020 at 4:21 PM, T0mShane said:

Lots of good science and data kicked around in that confab for sure.

Don’t make fun of the Stable Genius 

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3 hours ago, OCCH23 said:

So you're OK with women and children getting physically and sexually abused?  With people attempting/committing suicide at alarming rates?  With people losing their jobs, businesses, marriages and homes?  With mental depression exploding all around us?  With the most needy among us having access to LESS resources when they need them MOST?

Don't bother answering -- I'm sure you're NOT "ok" with that.  Who would be?  But we know for a fact that these are but a few of the consequences of the path our leaders have chosen.  What started out as "flatten the curve" has turned into "eliminate the disease", regardless of how impossible that is.  If you think this virus is as contagious as they say, then those other countries haven't accomplished anything because they haven't completely eradicated it.  It is only a matter of time before they have explosions again because 1 becomes 2, becomes 4, becomes 8 becomes 16, etc. etc. pretty quickly.

The only answer to this that's fair to everyone is PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.  Let people live their lives.  Let them work.  Let them go to school. If you're concerned about getting the virus, take proper precautions.  If you don't, take responsibility for the reults. 

3,000,000 people die in this country every year, and it's sad those deaths seemingly take a back seat if "COVID" isn't attached to the death certificate . . .

First paragraph is all deflections and/or false choice.

Second paragraph is an opinion.

Third paragraph ignores the reality that the people taking ‘personal responsibility’ are indermined by those that do not, and that’s the crux of the problem that gets ignored by folks making points like yours.

Fourth paragraph is absurdity.

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1 hour ago, OCCH23 said:

always fun when the ‘people die from all the things anyway’ folks inevitably invoke the ‘all the peripheral consequences of quarantine’ argument.

also a huge fan of the ‘with’ vs. ‘from’ semantic debate

both are super great arguments

 

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30 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

First paragraph is all deflections and/or false choice.

Second paragraph is an opinion.

Third paragraph ignores the reality that the people taking ‘personal responsibility’ are indermined by those that do not, and that’s the crux of the problem that gets ignored by folks making points like yours.

Fourth paragraph is absurdity.

Let's play a game.  We'll look at your post and see how many words describe what you wrote:

deflection -- yup, who cares if others are suffering, THIS IS A COVID ARGEMENT GOSH DARN IT!!!

false choice -- definitely, I mean how could millions suffering hold a candle to thousands dying?

opinion -- textbook definition

ignores reality -- says the person who has ZERO proof that all these  COVID deaths were poor unaccountable souls who did everything they could to fight the disease but just couldn't overcome those meanies who didn't wear a mask at Spring Break

crux of the problem -- well, if millions suffering doesn't ring any bells for you, then yeah I'd say that's pretty accurate

absurdity -- I used to think so, but I'm so numb to it after 6+ months that I just end up writing sarcastic responses and calling it a day . . .

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21 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

always fun when the ‘people die from all the things anyway’ folks inevitably invoke the ‘all the peripheral consequences of quarantine’ argument.

also a huge fan of the ‘with’ vs. ‘from’ semantic debate

both are super great arguments

 

WOW -- nice to know all the suffering out there is just "peripheral consequences" to you.

I mean hey, as long as you didn't lose your job, and your wife/kids aren't the ones getting beat up, and you don't know anyone (to your knowledge) attempting suicide, we might as well grab the chips and go back to the TV, amirite?

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14 minutes ago, OCCH23 said:

WOW -- nice to know all the suffering out there is just "peripheral consequences" to you.

I mean hey, as long as you didn't lose your job, and your wife/kids aren't the ones getting beat up, and you don't know anyone (to your knowledge) attempting suicide, we might as well grab the chips and go back to the TV, amirite?

But domestic violence, suicide, and unemployment happens anyway... 

don't get it canadian GIF by CBC

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19 minutes ago, OCCH23 said:

Let's play a game.  We'll look at your post and see how many words describe what you wrote:

deflection -- yup, who cares if others are suffering, THIS IS A COVID ARGEMENT GOSH DARN IT!!!

false choice -- definitely, I mean how could millions suffering hold a candle to thousands dying?

opinion -- textbook definition

ignores reality -- says the person who has ZERO proof that all these  COVID deaths were poor unaccountable souls who did everything they could to fight the disease but just couldn't overcome those meanies who didn't wear a mask at Spring Break

crux of the problem -- well, if millions suffering doesn't ring any bells for you, then yeah I'd say that's pretty accurate

absurdity -- I used to think so, but I'm so numb to it after 6+ months that I just end up writing sarcastic responses and calling it a day . . .

judge judy facepalm GIF by Agent M Loves Gifs

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If Nancy Pelosi can get her hair did, while all other Salons in California are closed, then Michigan can once again not live up to expectations.

I seriously, do not see the problem. Dont have fans at the games. No 20 year old football players are going to get this and die, none. Enough of this nonsense.

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1 hour ago, Integrity28 said:

But domestic violence, suicide, and unemployment happens anyway... 

don't get it canadian GIF by CBC

Dude you can't be this ignorant.

I'd rather just think you're heartless, which means the following will have no impact on you, but I'll post it anyway:

There has been a rise in the number of minors contacting the National Sexual Assault Hotline to report abuse. That's according to RAINN, the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network, which runs the hotline.

By the end of March, with much of the country under lockdown, there was a 22% increase in monthly calls from people younger than 18, and half of all incoming contacts were from minors. That's a first in RAINN's history, Camille Cooper, the organization's vice president of public policy, tells NPR.

Of those young people who contacted the hotline in March, 67% identified their perpetrator as a family member and 79% said they were currently living with that perpetrator. In 1 out of 5 cases where the minor was living with their abuser, RAINN assisted the minor in immediately contacting police.

"As a result of looking at the information that we had from those sessions, it was clear that the abuse was escalating in both frequency and severity," Cooper says. "So a lot of the kids that were coming to the hotline were feeling pretty vulnerable and traumatized. And it was a direct result of COVID-19, because they were quarantined with their abuser. The abuser was now abusing them on a daily basis."

 

You must have an interesting definition of "integrity" . . .

 

 

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In terms of actual Big 10 talk.... hard to see anyone dethroning OSU. Minnesota has taken huge steps....would love to somehow steal Fleck for our HC..... but they aren't there yet. Penn State will fall short as always with over rated Franklin and losing Parsons....Fiermouth would be a great 2nd rd target for us next year. Wisconsin will be decent in the west but fall to OSU as always. Was excited for Purdue and specifically Rondell Moore....but he too is bypassing the season. Lame.

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12 hours ago, OCCH23 said:

Did you actually read the article you cited re suicides? First of all, the suicide rate has been increasing since the early 2000's, which is not a good thing in and of itself. But there is no data at this point to determine if the overall suicide rate has actually climbed, which is clearly stated in the article, as is the point made by the health professionals quoted that suicide rates can actually go down in response to crises, such as Hurricane Katrina. 

The psychosocial costs of a pandemic are definitely serious. Which was why a serious lockdown effort on a national scale back in March would have reduced the spread, reduced fatalities, and allowed us to rebound much more quickly, therefore mitigated everything you are citing. The inaction of this administration is a MAJOR cause of the crippling and chronic disaster the US has endured. Why? Because someone we won't mention childishly refused to admit its reality. And still is trying to dismiss it by any means possible. 

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