Why were some of you so ready to panic?

[munchmemory]

4 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Eli Manning took 3.5 years (including throwing bad INTs off his back foot)  before he figured things out.  

IDGAF about Eli or anyone else.  Right now, Darnold looks bad.   Real bad.    Plus, the NFL is no longer a league where you let guys sit and learn.  You need to know how to play now.   From the garbage we've seen from Darnold these ,last three years, he doesn't.

[TuscanyTile2]

2 minutes ago, munchmemory said:

IDGAF about Eli or anyone else.  Right now, Darnold looks bad.   Real bad.    Plus, the NFL is no longer a league where you let guys sit and learn.  You need to know how to play now.   From the garbage we've seen from Darnold these ,last three years, he doesn't.

So you would've given up on Eli right before the payoff.  Got it.

[Y3k]

17 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

The indictment on his career is the 27 games he’s started for the franchise already, and the subsequent 15 games he has left to prove himself worthy of QB1 money.

You think he should have done better last year considering the circumstances? 

[Irish Jet]

Just now, TuscanyTile2 said:

So you would've given up on Eli right before the payoff.  Got it.

Different era. You're talking nonsense.

[TuscanyTile2]

Just now, Irish Jet said:

Different era. You're talking nonsense.

Different era?  Eli retired this past offseason.

[jgb]

5 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I remember one who won 2 Superbowls, who also happened to play in MetLife Stadium (for the team in blue).

I agree but you'll get a lot of people here who try to argue Eli was not a "consistent above-average QB."

[munchmemory]

Just now, Irish Jet said:

Different era. You're talking nonsense.

Exactly.   Teams don't wait for players to develop.   Too much money on the line.

[Jethead]

28 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

Eventually the excuses simply don't matter any more. It's at a point where we have to see something from Sam, some consistency at least. He has to show that he can be a top 10 QB in this league if we're to justify passing on a top QB in the next draft. At the minute he's showing nothing close to that. 

He's been put in a terrible situation that only seems to be getting worse. That sucks for him but he can still only be judged on what he's done on the field - His performance on Sunday was terrible even relative to what was around him - he was one of the worst performers on either team if not the worst.

If right now we had the #1 pick passing on Lawrence in the hope that Sam may someday work out in a better situation would be total insanity. 

Bingo. Sad but true. Whether he never had it or the Jets broke him, it doesn't matter.

Fortunately for him, there are 17 weeks until the Jets have to make that decision. 

[Y3k]

25 minutes ago, JiF said:

The boneheaded mistakes and now seeing that he was trigger shy is super concerning.  Broken type concerning. That's why I said all of the reactions are justifiable.  I just know last year I felt the same way and he bounced back.  I'm hoping that adjusting to basically a brand new cast of characters and seeing some of this on tape wakes him up and we start seeing some of what I found be very encouraging just 4 days ago.  After getting a day to see some plays more closely, he routinely makes a lot of the plays he missed, so I'm willing to see if he can get it right Sunday before I completely toss him over the cliff but right now I'm just holding on to the jersey as he looks over the edge.

 

 

Dude he probably just didn't see crowder. Had his eyes on periman and then it was too late to throw to crowder... Its one miss

[T0mShane]

5 minutes ago, jgb said:

It's moot anyway. There is almost a 0% chance that with this coaching staff and this team that Darnold can display the requisite consistency this season to justify further investment.

Agreed, but I think an elite QB can overcome a lot of the external factors and at least show that he’s not part and parcel of the problems he’s facing. Watson is down there carrying Bill O’Brien, Aaron Rodgers boosted Mike McCarthy with a bunch of JAGs, Russell Wilson excels with CFL talent around him on offense. Stafford consistently produces with the garbage he’s saddled with as head coach. I don’t envy the position Darnold is in, but if he wants $35mm plus, he has to overcome what’s around him. That’s why the top QBs get that money in the first place

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

So you would've given up on Eli right before the payoff.  Got it.

Problem is for every Eli there are 150 DeShone Kizers. 

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

When is the right time to say Darnold is not very good? Those of us who have said it for a couple seasons now are always accused of "panicking." When the team eventually gives up on Darnold, those who point out his shortcomings  at that time will be accused of "beating a dead horse" and "stating the obvious." It's always the same pattern.

Conclusion: it's never the right time to criticize the Jets.

Oh, no.  There is a right time.  It's just not when you, or I see it.  It's when *they* finally see it.

[Y3k]

34 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

Eventually the excuses simply don't matter any more. It's at a point where we have to see something from Sam, some consistency at least. He has to show that he can be a top 10 QB in this league if we're to justify passing on a top QB in the next draft. At the minute he's showing nothing close to that. 

He's been put in a terrible situation that only seems to be getting worse. That sucks for him but he can still only be judged on what he's done on the field - His performance on Sunday was terrible even relative to what was around him - he was one of the worst performers on either team if not the worst.

If right now we had the #1 pick passing on Lawrence in the hope that Sam may someday work out in a better situation would be total insanity. 

You act like we've been making excuses for Darnold all of last year. He had a bad stretch after coming back from mono. Then put up elite performances against Raiders, Giants, Redskins and was top 10 in efficiency through his final 8 even though he played the top 3 defenses in the NFL. 

[Irish Jet]

1 minute ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Different era?  Eli retired this past offseason.

The NFL was essentially a different sport in 2004. Which is the era Eli was struggling in relative to Darnold's current struggles.

Almost no rookies played and succeeded. Ben's rookie season was seen as exceptional and nowadays rookie's blow it away. The game has been made much easier for QB's. Eli got the living piss beaten out of him in those first few years.

 

[T0mShane]

3 minutes ago, Y3k said:

You think he should have done better last year considering the circumstances? 

I think he has to do better this year. This is his Waterloo season.

[Guilhermezmc]

You can't possible look at last year and this first game and think this is the guy that can lead a franchise to the superbowl

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Oh, no.  There is a right time.  It's just not when you, or I see it.  It's when *they* finally see it.

Ah, the Goldilocks Zone of criticism--when negative statements are acceptable but not yet consensus. It is a narrow zone indeed.

[Ohhthepain]

42 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I think Darnold's issues arise from too much "thinking". He's not that kind of player. Gase has a "thinking man's" playbook. That's why Manning liked him so much. A QB only succeeds if the playbook is married to his talents. That is why Gase is the wrong coach. He is trying to make Darnold fit into his generic idea of what a QB does, rather than run a playbook that is tailored to what Darnold does well. 

Darnold needs a playbook tailored to his mobility and accuracy and his free wheeling style. One that is not afraid of risky play calls and challenges the QB to make plays. Rather than one that challenges the QB to dissect the D, identify the target based on coverages, and make an easy throw. That is NOT who Darnold is. Playing style-wise and mental makeup-wise -- he's not Tom Brady or Payton Manning. He's more in the line of Brett Favre, John Elway and Patrick Mahomes when it comes to mental makeup and play style. His an athlete and gun slinger. Let the kid play. 

This is why we're seeing regression.  This is why the offense looks so abysmal. Hes playing in a system that best suits Peyton Manning, not Sam Darnold. The Gase hire was never going to work from day 1 because of this.

Go back to year one and look at his tape. Jeremy Bates had Sam slingin it around. It's actually sad to see him play like this. 

 

[Gangrene]

19 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I think Darnold's issues arise from too much "thinking". He's not that kind of player. Gase has a "thinking man's" playbook. That's why Manning liked him so much. A QB only succeeds if the playbook is married to his talents. That is why Gase is the wrong coach. He is trying to make Darnold fit into his generic idea of what a QB does, rather than run a playbook that is tailored to what Darnold does well. 

Darnold needs a playbook tailored to his mobility and accuracy and his free wheeling style. One that is not afraid of risky play calls and challenges the QB to make plays. Rather than one that challenges the QB to dissect the D, identify the target based on coverages, and make an easy throw. That is NOT who Darnold is. Playing style-wise and mental makeup-wise -- he's not Tom Brady or Payton Manning. He's more in the line of Brett Favre, John Elway and Patrick Mahomes when it comes to mental makeup and play style. His an athlete and gun slinger. Let the kid play. 

I've posted similar thoughts. Gase is a bright dude, a football nerd but his limitations as a coach are clear. Gase is not the greatest communicator, not a natural teacher or leader.

Adam Gase needs a meticulous, minutia-obsessed qb who can absorb chunks of information quickly. (it's a small subset of qbs that actually work in Gase's system.)

Sam processes information in a different way, he's improvisational, mobile;  he needs a coach who can be creative on the fly and likely keep things simple. 

Darnold comes across like he's faking it in the media. He's in over his head at the moment.

He is struggling in the Gase offense, it's not so much Adam Gase's fault as it is a really bad fit for both of them.

 

[TuscanyTile2]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

Problem is for every Eli there are 150 DeShone Kizers. 

I understand this.  I just don't get why people are down on Sam.  He had 1 bad game but it was after an offseason where the OL was completely revamped and there was a shortened preseason.

[Irish Jet]

Just now, Y3k said:

You act like we've been making excuses for Darnold all of last year. He had a bad stretch after coming back from mono. Then put up elite performances against Raiders, Giants, Redskins and was top 10 in efficiency through his final 8 even though he played the top 3 defenses in the NFL. 

I was actually defending Darnold last year and I think quite justifiably given the health issues and the horrible line.

But it's year three. You can no longer be making the stupid decisions he was making Sunday. These have to be gone by this point. These mistakes have been a running theme and as a result he's shown no consistency. I think he's the type of QB who can get in a rhythm and play really well but also spooks very easily and can go into meltdown. That's acceptable for a while if the former starts to trend over the latter, but that's not what's happening. 

[TuscanyTile2]

2 minutes ago, Guilhermezmc said:

You can't possible look at last year and this first game and think this is the guy that can lead a franchise to the superbowl

Well we disagree then.  I do think Sam can lead us to a Superbowl title.

[slimjasi]

1 minute ago, Ohhthepain said:

This is why we're seeing regression.  This is why the offense looks so abysmal. Hes playing in a system that best suits Peyton Manning, not Sam Darnold. The Gase hire was never going to work from day 1 because of this.

Go back to year one and look at his tape. Jeremy Bates had Sam slingin it around. It's actually sad to see him play like this. 

 

I think the main problem with this argument is that Darnold was statistically better in every major passing category last year than he was in year 1. 

[CTM]

1 hour ago, Matt39 said:

There's also the belief that he was never a great prospect to begin with. The northeast fell in love with him because of one game.

Say what you want about QBase but for sure it doesn't over rate a prime time bowl game performance the way people do.

For QB's drafted in the last 3 years it rates Darnold behind:

Rosen, Mayfield, Lamar, Murray, Haskins, Burrow, Tua, Herbet and Fromm. He's is projection is nearly equal to Jalen Hurt. The data suggested he was a 3rd or 4th round prospect and the performance so far looks about that range as well.

[Matt39]

5 minutes ago, Y3k said:

You act like we've been making excuses for Darnold all of last year. He had a bad stretch after coming back from mono. Then put up elite performances against Raiders, Giants, Redskins and was top 10 in efficiency through his final 8 even though he played the top 3 defenses in the NFL. 

Darnold to date has the ability to flash decent numbers against porous secondaries. Similar to all of the other bust QB's we've had. He's pissed his pants against good defenses. Darnold against the AFC East alone has been abysmal. The Jets issues stem way beyond Darnold, but some toughness from the position would be a start. Darnold's a sandlot style QB who has refused to tuck the ball and run since his rookie season. 

[Y3k]

5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I think he has to do better this year. This is his Waterloo season.

So he did as well as possible last year, yet hes on a 1 game leash . got it. 

[jgb]

6 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I understand this.  I just don't get why people are down on Sam.  He had 1 bad game but it was after an offseason where the OL was completely revamped and there was a shortened preseason.

It's not just about "one game." It's also about the 26 games before Sunday.

The opposite is probably more true. The optimists have excused away/forgotten Darnold's previous 26 starts in order to feel good about him going forward. It is the optimistic view that has been undercut. That's where the emotion is coming from. People being let down. The pessimistic fans were let down a long time ago. 

[Larz]

We’ve seen this movie before. They’ll win enough games to lose out on an impact player and no top coaches or free agents will come here 

[ZachEY]

It's just mind boggling that the guy who finished 2018 30th in DVOA and 30th in DYAR and 2019 31st in DVOA and 32nd in DYAR, and started 2020 in this fashion isn't universally beloved.  Jets fans are just so prone to panic.

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Well we disagree then.  I do think Sam can lead us to a Superbowl title.

"Can" is a wide range between "will" and "impossible." There are 100 roads to the Super Bowl. 95 of them start with a good QB. A team that wants to maximize its chances of winning it all, doesn't hold out hope for long shots at the most important position in sport and the odds on Darnold are growing very, very long.

[CTM]

8 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Oh, no.  There is a right time.  It's just not when you, or I see it.  It's when *they* finally see it.

Some will never see it, there are still people who think Pennington is better than Brady if not for x, y and z. Remember those debates lol

[Y3k]

8 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Agreed, but I think an elite QB can overcome a lot of the external factors and at least show that he’s not part and parcel of the problems he’s facing. Watson is down there carrying Bill O’Brien, Aaron Rodgers boosted Mike McCarthy with a bunch of JAGs, Russell Wilson excels with CFL talent around him on offense. Stafford consistently produces with the garbage he’s saddled with as head coach. I don’t envy the position Darnold is in, but if he wants $35mm plus, he has to overcome what’s around him. That’s why the top QBs get that money in the first place

You don't think Darnold proved he was the only solution we had last year? He elevated the WORST offense in NFL history into a decent unit...

[Matt39]

1 minute ago, CTM said:

Say what you want about QBase but for sure it doesn't over rate a prime time bowl game performance the way people do.

For QB's drafted in the last 3 years it rates Darnold behind:

Rosen, Mayfield, Lamar, Murray, Haskins, Burrow, Tua, Herbet and Fromm. He's is projection is nearly equal to Jalen Hurt

Most of the sports media in the northeast do not watch college football and they went gaga over the Rose Bowl. The Pac-12 is awful. Rosen is another megabust. The silver lining I guess is Mayfield looks like one too.

[Ken Schroy]

1 hour ago, Y3k said:

I'm talking specifically about Darnold here... just trying to understand WTF is going on. 

This is a young player, the youngest player start at QB 2 years ago, and still younger than the #1 pick in the draft this year.  He was also an inexperienced player, he played basically 1 season of high school football and less than 2 years at USC. He wasn't one of those groomed since birth QBs that attended 20k QB camps every year in high school. He's raw. 

I've been a Jets fan for a decent amount of time, im 35 now, have probably been watching the Jets every Sunday for 20+ years. I've suffered through dozens of QBs that I knew were dead on arrival. No special talent, no ability. Darnold is the only QB I've ever seen in a Jets uniform, other than Farve for a couple of weeks, that I thought has the potential to be really special.

Yes, he's been inconsistent, but he's put together many games that I haven't seen other QBs in this uniform put together before. Hes had long stretches of success to end each of his first two seasons. He improved in EVERY single category last year vs. his rookie year, even though we all know he had the worst OL any of us have ever seen, the worst group of receives in the NFL, a back up TE, and had freaking mono. Without Darnold last year this was the worst offense in NFL history, with Darnold they were a respectable unit, able to put up 30+ points a few times- unbelievable really. 

We all agree that Adam Gase is clueless, is not using Darnold to the best of his ability, and is potentially stunting faster growth. If we all agree on these things, why not WANT to give him as much opportunity as possible to see if he can survive this ******* mess? We are asking this kid to put a terrible team on his back and carry us, by himself. When he ****s up, he has Dowell Friggin Loggains to talk to. Lamar Jackson and Mahomes are great players, but they have incredible support systems around them. Its unbelievable. Every game, about half the plays I see are ones that you and I could make... they create systems around these players that lift them up. They build their confidence up, and then they let their talents take over. 

So it really saddens me to see a significant chunk of  you guys so ready to be out for blood. The kid struggles against the #1 pass D on a windy day and you're ready to crucify him. We need to be his support system until he either fails or succeeds. 

I heard he had a tummy ache too.

[Y3k]

2 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

It's just mind boggling that the guy who finished 2018 30th in DVOA and 30th in DYAR and 2019 31st in DVOA and 32nd in DYAR, and started 2020 in this fashion isn't universally beloved.  Jets fans are just so prone to panic.

It's mind boggling that so many pea brains think that stats that don't account for game context and circumstance matter. How did Darnold rank among QBs that had the worst OL in NFL history protecting them?