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Here comes Cimini linking the Jets to a possible decision with Trevor Lawrence

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If Darnold sputters, how can you not reason that GASE was his problem???  Right now, GASE is the entire team's problem. It is obvious.  It is not just the horrible performance on the field.  I'm convinced that the continuing rash of soft tissue injuries are connected with players being profoundly disillusioned. At the very least, they are not working hard and as such, are not in top shape. That leads to injuries like... HAMMIES. 

Right now, the Jets have a QB in the hand.  Trevor Lawrence, thought VERY compelling is a QB in the bush.

The only way to properly evaluate Darnold and thus decide if the Jets need to move on and draft a QB in 2021 is to expunge Gase NOW.  Not at the end of the season.  NOW!!!

They need to get Gase away from Darnold NOW while there is still time.

JOE DOUGLAS... DO YOUR JOB

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Im sure cardinal fans didnt think they'd have murray and now look 

They also fired their terrible coach after one year. Rosen was terrible from day 1 and the organization made an admittedly bold move. Darnold has been decent and did improve from year 1 to 2, albeit with baby steps. They’re not dumping him after this year unless he completely craps the bed and even then, Gase will be canned for sure and they’ll likely give Darnold the 4th year.


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4 hours ago, Warfish said:

I don't blame Cimini.

Darnold is in his third year, and to date is a bust.  Homers may not like it, but too bad.  If his career ended today, he's a bust based on what he has done so far.

We have a ton of picks, and there is a hyped up well-regarded QB that could be the #1/#1 next year.

The story literally writes itself, and people will read it and get worked up no matter what side the stand on.

If I were Cimini, and had his job, I'd write the same story.

Sorry, but too early to say if he is a bust. 11-16 with 33 td's and 29 ints playing behind a horrible OLine and having mediocre at best offensive weapons with 2 buffoons as his HC in his first 2 years leaves a lot of questions unanswered. He was bad on Sunday and needs to be more consistent and make better decisions but he really doesn't get a lot of help. The Oline is still not good and his weapons are worse than last year and Gase is a moron. I just don't know that any young QB playing under these same circumstances would be any better. 

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3 hours ago, Losmeister said:

@jetstream23

respectfully...   you are becoming desperate in your attempts to prop up a below avg guy who we happen to spend a sh*tton of draft capital on...

2018 we were 3-3...   still fighting

he plays three games where his QBR are 11.9, 50.0 and 6.7...   7 INTS vs 2 TD and we're ****ed as he gets benched...

2019 plays good in a win to get us off the schnide then plays 3 games where his QBR is 1.1, 19.7 and 55.8 throwin 8 int vs 3 td

and we're ****ed....

garbage time is garbage time

Fair opinion, man.  I'm trying to play a little bit of glass half full against a lot of half empties.  I have opinions, but I separate them from the facts I share.

If this team needs a new HC, a new QB, and a complete roster rebuild I'm not sure it makes any sense to even pay attention until the Draft next April again.  I'm hoping that's not the case and that there's SOMETHING good on this team.

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It truly does not matter who is the QB of this team when the COACHING and the ROSTER is this f'ing bad.

 

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1 hour ago, New York Mick said:

If I got the first pick I’d trade it in a heartbeat. You’d be able to get a ton of picks. 

Out of curiosity, let's just say the Jets somehow got the #1 pick and were planning to take Trevor Lawrence.  If they put Sam Darnold on the trading block what do you think they would get?  I would think at least two 1st round picks.  I'd actually expect them to get more than they got for Jamal Adams.... maybe even a lot more.

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5 minutes ago, Barton said:

It truly does not matter who is the QB of this team when the COACHING and the ROSTER is this f'ing bad.

 

Barring a total washout of a season, I don't think JD is planning to make a final evaluation on Sam until next year.  He knows that the skill position players still aren't there to support the QB, but he is also committed to building this team "the right way" so he is not going to trade premium future draft picks or spend big bucks on free agents until we're a lot closer to a championship-level team - even if the lack of offensive talent stunts Sam's development a bit.  Joe D will need at least one more draft before he has enough of a young (read: cheap) foundation of "his players" in place before he makes aggressive roster moves to supplement them.  He's setting up next season as the early target for that.

Having said that, the scary part of this first game for me was that Sam made rookie-level mistakes and bad plays that were clearly on him and not attributable to a lack of talent at WR or on the OL.  If that trend continues, all bets are off for how JD proceeds with the QB position, but I'm personally going to need more than one game like that this season before I give up on #14.

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11 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

Out of curiosity, let's just say the Jets somehow got the #1 pick and were planning to take Trevor Lawrence.  If they put Sam Darnold on the trading block what do you think they would get?  I would think at least two 1st round picks.  I'd actually expect them to get more than they got for Jamal Adams.... maybe even a lot more.

I would love for this to be true in that scenario, but I don't think it would be.  If we have such a bad season that we get the #1 pick next year, Sam's reputation will be so damaged that I think we'd be lucky to get a single 2nd round pick for him at that point.

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5 hours ago, Mackman55 said:

You must not watch a lot of football. The Rams would trade Goff for Darnold in a heartbeat. Sam has his issues but Goff is a deeply flawed QB despite having many weapons around him and a top 10 NFL coach.

Goff sucks.  But this is not even close to true, lol.  

No one would trade their QB for Darnold.

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3 hours ago, Untouchable said:

If we’re in position for Lawrence, then that means that Darnold was either hurt or completely and utterly fell flat on his face this season. If that’s the case, then by all means, do what it takes to get Lawrence.

But you’d still by and large be ushering him into the same sh*t situation that was thrust upon Darnold unless Douglas just absolutely nails these next two offseasons.

Hence why we have 4 first round picks in the next 2 seasons.  Douglas had a pretty good idea of what was coming in 2020 and what the true future of the team is.  Those draft assets are where the future lies.  It's also why he traded down so much in the 2020 draft.  It's all about the picks now.

You'd also better believe that, whether we draft a QB or not this year, Douglas will be investing heavy cap dollars in a new WR and perhaps 1-2 new Guards.

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43 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

Out of curiosity, let's just say the Jets somehow got the #1 pick and were planning to take Trevor Lawrence.  If they put Sam Darnold on the trading block what do you think they would get?  I would think at least two 1st round picks.  I'd actually expect them to get more than they got for Jamal Adams.... maybe even a lot more.

lol.

If the Jets are picking first its because Darnold would have sucked.  In Year 3 of his career.  Who is trading away two 1sts for a QB like that?

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5 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

Is it more likely he forgot how to play football or that this train wreck of an offseason with no preseason games and a Week 1 with 8 new players on offense as compared to 2019, had something to do with it?

Plus hes really young 

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8 hours ago, ChuckkieB said:


They also fired their terrible coach after one year. Rosen was terrible from day 1 and the organization made an admittedly bold move. Darnold has been decent and did improve from year 1 to 2, albeit with baby steps. They’re not dumping him after this year unless he completely craps the bed and even then, Gase will be canned for sure and they’ll likely give Darnold the 4th year.


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If Macc drafted Rosen you'd hear the exact same excuses as you do for Sam. That's the thing about blaming the supporting cast for individual poor performance--it's unprovable and unknowable and leads into a rabbit hole of indecision and lost opportunity cost.

That's why I've developed my super simple system to evaluate players. It's called: Good Players Play Good

Sure, sometimes you may misjudge a player who is truly held back by his circumstances, but you will never waste time and energy to figure out why a player sucks--"It is the player? Is it the OL? Is it the coach? Is it the phase of the moon?" No my friends, with my system you make efficient decisions quickly and with a high degree of accuracy. Never again set your franchise back for years and years because you suffer paralysis by analysis and "can't yet evaluate player X due to his surroundings."

NFL HCs and GMs are paid to evaluate players in all sorts of circumstances. To insist that a player cannot be properly evaluated unless they are in laboratory-type conditions where every variable is accounted for is hogwash. Sometimes you may make a bad call, ok, fine. But waiting too long to move on is worse that the decision to draft/sign a bad player in the first place.

 

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7 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

Out of curiosity, let's just say the Jets somehow got the #1 pick and were planning to take Trevor Lawrence.  If they put Sam Darnold on the trading block what do you think they would get?  I would think at least two 1st round picks.  I'd actually expect them to get more than they got for Jamal Adams.... maybe even a lot more.

After the Rosen fiasco in Miami I doubt we get a third if he totally craps out this year.  Winston and Bortles were cut outright. They both showed more than Rosen, Baker or Darnold to date.  

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14 hours ago, pointman said:

 

Goff is 25. He has 2 seasons over 4500 yards. Thrown for 28-32-22 TDs, +21 td to int, +20...QBR over 100 twice. 

Sam 1 season barely over 3000 yards. 17 and 19 TDs, +2 and +6 tds to ints, 84 highest QBR.

 

Numbers don't lie. Don't be mad. You're wrong. It will be ok. Sam isn't better than Goff. 

You have to wonder how Sam would do under the same circumstances, that is, a 1,000 yard rusher, a stable of upper-tier weapons and one of the top 5 OLs in the league.  When the running game struggled last year and in the Super Bowl, Goff did not look impressive at all.

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If Macc drafted Rosen you'd hear the exact same excuses as you do for Sam. That's the thing about blaming the supporting cast for individual poor performance--it's unprovable and unknowable and leads into a rabbit hole of indecision and lost opportunity cost.
That's why I've developed my super simple system to evaluate players. It's called: Good Players Play Good
Sure, sometimes you may misjudge a player who is truly held back by his circumstances, but you will never waste time and energy to figure out why a player sucks--"It is the player? Is it the OL? Is it the coach? Is it the phase of the moon?" No my friends, with my system you make efficient decisions quickly and with a high degree of accuracy. Never again set your franchise back for years and years because you suffer paralysis by analysis and "can't yet evaluate player X due to his surroundings."
NFL HCs and GMs are paid to evaluate players in all sorts of circumstances. To insist that a player cannot be properly evaluated unless they are in laboratory-type conditions where every variable is accounted for is hogwash. Sometimes you may make a bad call, ok, fine. But waiting too long to move on is worse that the decision to draft/sign a bad player in the first place.
 

Based in your super simple system, Darnold HAS played GOOD enough over the first two years of his career to warrant another look this year, and likely a 4th year under a different coach, unless of course this year is a complete disaster.

That being said, I’ve been preaching the “good players play good” philosophy around here for a while and Darnold has shown enough flashes IMO to not give up on him just yet. I like to call the level that Darnold has fallen into so far is the Andy Dalton Level, which is the most difficult one to navigate as an organization - not bad enough to immediately move on from, and not consistently good enough to lead his team to the playoffs on a regular basis. They gave Dalton 8 years to figure that out. I don’t think the Jets will need that long, but they are definitely giving Darnold year 3 and probably year 4 to find out.

P.S. if the Jets drafted Rosen, he would have been an unmitigated disaster here too and would never have survived to year 3. On the other side of the coin of “good players play good” is “bad players play bad.” Rosen is bad. Darnold isn’t bad. We just don’t know if he’s franchise level, but like it or not, we’re about to find out, and he’s not off to a good start in 2020.


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9 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

Out of curiosity, let's just say the Jets somehow got the #1 pick and were planning to take Trevor Lawrence.  If they put Sam Darnold on the trading block what do you think they would get?  I would think at least two 1st round picks.  I'd actually expect them to get more than they got for Jamal Adams.... maybe even a lot more.

For Darnold?? If he keeps playing the way he is. You’ll get a 3rd 

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16 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Coach and other solid pieces.  Build the oline, wr, TE, RB and then go draft the next big thing.

My god you sound like the logical voice of reason on this page maybe you should offer the jets for your services!. 

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16 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Coach and other solid pieces.  Build the oline, wr, TE, RB and then go draft the next big thing.

All of those things can be drafted in the late 1st and middle rounds.  You don't get many opportunities to pick a great young QB.  As bad as this franchise has been we haven't had a top 2 pick since 1997.

Obviously, we've had opportunities to draft a top young QB without needing a pick that high (Wilson, Mahomes, Watson, Lamar Jackson) and stupidly picked someone else.  But we've also missed out on the likes of Matthew Stafford, Matt Ryan, Jared Goff and Carson Wentz by not picking high enough in the right years and not being able to trade up.

Teams with bad rosters don't tend to have the luxury to pick and choose when they take their QB.  Necessity dictates you take one when he's available.  

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26 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

All of those things can be drafted in the late 1st and middle rounds.  You don't get many opportunities to pick a great young QB.  As bad as this franchise has been we haven't had a top 2 pick since 1997.

Obviously, we've had opportunities to draft a top young QB without needing a pick that high (Wilson, Mahomes, Watson, Lamar Jackson) and stupidly picked someone else.  But we've also missed out on the likes of Matthew Stafford, Matt Ryan, Jared Goff and Carson Wentz by not picking high enough in the right years and not being able to trade up.

Teams with bad rosters don't tend to have the luxury to pick and choose when they take their QB.  Necessity dictates you take one when he's available.  

Disagree totally, we have tried to address those things for years in mid rounds.

Every year there are 'franchise qbs'.

Teams that succeed with young guys have great olines, at least some weapons and a good defense.

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8 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Disagree totally, we have tried to address those things for years in mid rounds.

Every year there are 'franchise qbs'.

Teams that succeed with young guys have great olines, at least some weapons and a good defense.

We have tried to address them with bad GM's who can't evaluate talent.  That isn't going to be the case with Douglas.  A competent GM can, and does, find WRs in the late 1st/2nd and those other positions in the mid rounds.  Kelce and Kittle were midrounders, after all.  Many, many quality interior OL are found in the middle rounds as well.

And if it is the case that Douglas can't do that, we're screwed regardless.  We have to trust he can, knowing that he's loaded up with a ton of picks to do the job effectively.

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8 hours ago, deucebag said:

You have to wonder how Sam would do under the same circumstances, that is, a 1,000 yard rusher, a stable of upper-tier weapons and one of the top 5 OLs in the league.  When the running game struggled last year and in the Super Bowl, Goff did not look impressive at all.

Goff choked in the super bowl. He looked scared. And I don't expect Sam to have Goff's numbers (even though Goff's numbers aren't staggering). I just expect him to show some sort of good trustworthy numbers. 

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23 hours ago, Mackman55 said:

You must not watch a lot of football. The Rams would trade Goff for Darnold in a heartbeat.

fail old man GIF

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22 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

Then let's take the most recent 25% of his career (2nd half of 2019 season).  In the final half of 2019 (8 games) he threw only 4 INTs against 13 TDs and the Jets went 6-2.

Is it more likely he forgot how to play football or that this train wreck of an offseason with no preseason games and a Week 1 with 8 new players on offense as compared to 2019, had something to do with it?

In the "most recent 25% of his career" he played against 5 of the bottom 6 ranked defenses, per DVOA.  Jacksonville, who embarrassed him in the 1st half of the season, being the one missing.

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21 hours ago, Untouchable said:

If we’re in position for Lawrence, then that means that Darnold was either hurt or completely and utterly fell flat on his face this season. If that’s the case, then by all means, do what it takes to get Lawrence.

But you’d still by and large be ushering him into the same sh*t situation that was thrust upon Darnold unless Douglas just absolutely nails these next two offseasons.

If we're in position to get Lawrence, you do a ******* jig, because you also have the Seahawks 1st rounder, the 33rd pick in the draft, and the 65th pick in the draft.  A new QB and possibly 3 weapons to build with him right off the bat.

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1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

If we're in position to get Lawrence, you do a ******* jig, because you also have the Seahawks 1st rounder, the 33rd pick in the draft, and the 65th pick in the draft.  A new QB and possibly 3 weapons to build with him right off the bat.

Assuming you get the #1 pick, sure.

But if they don’t, what’s going to stop some team like Cleveland, Detroit, Washington, etc from telling the Jets to go f*ck themselves even if they offered an assortment of picks?

You could argue we should take Fields/Lance in that scenario but neither one is even close to matching Lawrence.

I’d probably prefer just to build the piss out of the rest of the roster with all of those picks and chase some veteran QB to compete with Darnold under a new HC.

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26 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

Assuming you get the #1 pick, sure.

But if they don’t, what’s going to stop some team like Cleveland, Detroit, Washington, etc from telling the Jets to go f*ck themselves even if they offered an assortment of picks?

You could argue we should take Fields/Lance in that scenario but neither one is even close to matching Lawrence.

I’d probably prefer just to build the piss out of the rest of the roster with all of those picks and chase some veteran QB to compete with Darnold under a new HC.

 

We'll cross that bridge when we get there.  Washington is 1-0, after all.  And Cleveland might just win tonight.  I don't see Detroit being bad enough to tank unless Stafford gets hurt again.  Jacksonville, even at 1-0, would be far more likely to be in this group.  But Minshew looks great so who knows.

This team always tends to win meaningless games late in the season.  But Douglas might be smart enough to execute a front office-led tank effort to prevent that, if it comes down to it.

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On 9/16/2020 at 5:56 PM, Mackman55 said:

You must not watch a lot of football. The Rams would trade Goff for Darnold in a heartbeat. Sam has his issues but Goff is a deeply flawed QB despite having many weapons around him and a top 10 NFL coach.

And we have a winner, for Dumbest Football statement of the day. Rams would trade Goff for Darnold in a heartbeat. Take a bow, Mackman!!!

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On 9/16/2020 at 11:27 PM, MykePM said:

Barring a total washout of a season, I don't think JD is planning to make a final evaluation on Sam until next year.  He knows that the skill position players still aren't there to support the QB, but he is also committed to building this team "the right way" so he is not going to trade premium future draft picks or spend big bucks on free agents until we're a lot closer to a championship-level team - even if the lack of offensive talent stunts Sam's development a bit.  Joe D will need at least one more draft before he has enough of a young (read: cheap) foundation of "his players" in place before he makes aggressive roster moves to supplement them.  He's setting up next season as the early target for that.

Having said that, the scary part of this first game for me was that Sam made rookie-level mistakes and bad plays that were clearly on him and not attributable to a lack of talent at WR or on the OL.  If that trend continues, all bets are off for how JD proceeds with the QB position, but I'm personally going to need more than one game like that this season before I give up on #14.

What scares me about Darnold is he doesnt look comfortable in the pocket. I dont see a guy who stands back there, lets his balls hang low, and delivers the ball accurately while knowing he's about to get smacked in the face.

This is where Gase needs to design the offense around Sam's strengths - his athleticism and ability to throw on the run and minimize his weaknesses (staying in the pocket snap after snap). Instead we are getting nothing of the sort. Just Sam in the pocket with happy feet all game long.

If you put Darnold on the Chiefs/with Andy Reid, he'd be looking just fine, in my opinion. Gase's system is a bad fit for Sam, I believe.

 

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