We got fleeced by Palmer.

[Vader]

13 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

This doesn't even attempt to answer my question.

But, to follow up, how did the "consensus #1 prospect not just in his draft class but he was viewed as one of the best QB prospects in years" not go #1, or even #2?  Passed by two teams in need of a QB?  Maybe he wasn't as consensus as you're believing/implying?

Also, what you're implying is that Sam Darnold isn't good enough to be a FQB, without even meaning to.  You're saying he needs the perfect, or at least near perfect circumstances to succeed.

I’m not saying that at all. What I said specifically was:

”They haven’t supported him. He has had the worst roster support of any QB I have ever seen. ”

Doesn’t need perfection. Just actual NFL caliber players on his OL, and WR groups. 

The question about mechanics, footwork, “Palmer-nonsense” was addressed on their relevancy.

They are irrelevant, because Darnold is by nature an extremely idiosyncratic QB. He makes plays that are ONLY possible because he breaks the rules.

Regarding Darnold as a prospect and why he was drafted 3 and not 1 or 2 — Mayfield going 1 To Cleveland was a legitimate upset, late-breaking. The Giants taking Barkley was also an upset. But they had Manning. 

People were legit shocked that Sam fell and Giants fans were ripping their shirts and mourning.

JD has begun to address the black hole of the roster — I am willing to bet he will be continue to surround Darnold with talent over the next two years. 

[Vader]

11 minutes ago, BROOKLYN JET said:

Dave Gettleman passed on Sam Darnold and drafted Daniel Jones.

Giants passed on Sam and drafted Barkley, a RB. They were crucified both for drafting a RB at 2 over Darnold — today you see the fruit of that decision. 

[BROOKLYN JET]

1 minute ago, Vader said:

Giants passed on Sam and drafted Barkley, a RB. They were crucified both for drafting a RB at 2 over Darnold — today you see the fruit of that decision. 

Taking a RB at 2 was stupid, but he passed on Sam and he drafted Jones.

[Vader]

2 minutes ago, BROOKLYN JET said:

Taking a RB at 2 was stupid, but he passed on Sam and he drafted Jones.

And he was rightly crucified for passing on Darnold 

[greenwichjetfan]

6 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Also, what you're implying is that Sam Darnold isn't good enough to be a FQB, without even meaning to.  You're saying he needs the perfect, or at least near perfect circumstances to succeed.

Saying Darnold needs help in the form of better coaching and a better roster is not saying he needs everything to be perfect, and you know it.

You don’t think Darnold is a good QB. That’s fair, he’s earned it. But going thread to thread every week dismissing the idea that he could have also been ruined by circumstance is either disingenuous or misguided. It’s absolutely true that the talent difference between a chiefs roster and the jets roster is materially significant just as it’s absolutely true that the coaching/game planning/game calling prowess between a Sean Payton and Adam Gase is materially significant.

Aaron Rodgers is one of the most talented QBs I’ve ever seen, and he’s had down years due to bad coaching. Look what LaFluer has done for him. 

Tom Brady is widely considered the GOAT, but check out his production splits on passes in games without Edelman, Welker or Gronk.

If players of that caliber with their experience can be so affected by their circumstances, of course it’ll affect a young, raw player like Darnold. 

[BROOKLYN JET]

1 minute ago, Vader said:

And he was rightly crucified for passing on Darnold 

I don't know 1 person who would want Darnold over Jones.

[Vader]

1 minute ago, BROOKLYN JET said:

I don't know 1 person who would want Darnold over Jones.

Ask Giant fans 

[BROOKLYN JET]

Just now, Vader said:

Ask Giant fans 

They all are happy they took Jones.

[ZachEY]

12 minutes ago, Vader said:

I’m not saying that at all. What I said specifically was:

”They haven’t supported him. He has had the worst roster support of any QB I have ever seen. ”

Doesn’t need perfection. Just actual NFL caliber players on his OL, and WR groups. 

The question about mechanics, footwork, “Palmer-nonsense” was addressed on their relevancy.

They are irrelevant, because Darnold is by nature an extremely idiosyncratic QB. He makes plays that are ONLY possible because he breaks the rules.

Regarding Darnold as a prospect and why he was drafted 3 and not 1 or 2 — Mayfield going 1 To Cleveland was a legitimate upset, late-breaking. The Giants taking Barkley was also an upset. But they had Manning. 

People were legit shocked that Sam fell and Giants fans were ripping their shirts and mourning.

JD has begun to address the black hole of the roster — I am willing to bet he will be continue to surround Darnold with talent over the next two years. 

Ok, so your thesis is that the guy who does nothing by the rules, even though the rules exist for a reason, isn't bad because of that, but because of all external reasons.

Also, if he was the consensus #1, these things wouldn't have happened.  Yes, people were surprised, but this wasn't Andrew Luck or Peyton Manning.  It was a guy with a ton of question marks dropping.

[Dunnie]

And he was rightly crucified for passing on Darnold 

Cept Jones is pretty much neck and neck w/ Darnold ... So maybe they tried to move out of the pick and could not get the value they wanted

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using JetNation.com mobile app

[RutgersJetFan]

Literally the same exact arguments here for Jets QB's for the last 15 years. 

[Gangrene]

1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

Palmer is a bit of a fraud if you ask me, everyone he works with he declares awesome.

Having said that no qb is going to look at all good with this brutal team.

 

A wee bit of a fraud you say ? Surely not?

"Palmer: a lot of the stuff that I do installing for the draft, even when I was training Christian, I stole from what Josh did. When I was sitting at 9 at night, I was backing Josh up when (Jay) Cutler got hurt in Chicago. So I stole a lot of the stuff from Josh. How he prepares, how he thinks, so the fact that Christian got to go sit with that and Mike (Maccagnan) and Todd (Bowles) have been so patient with him. Christian doesn’t really care what everyone says, same with Blake Bortels, which is why Blake was able to have the best game of his life when it mattered the most in the AFC Championship game. And I think Christian is still a guy who will play in this league and I’m really excited because this is the biggest offseason of his life. He’s going to get an opportunity and I think he’s going to be a kid who runs with it.
Read More: QB Jordan Palmer Expects Big Things From Christian Hackenberg 

[Vader]

3 minutes ago, BROOKLYN JET said:

They all are happy they took Jones.

Yeah I mean they realize they got lucky. All things being equal though Giants fans I have spoken to think Jets fans are absolutely delusional and would take Darnold in a heartbeat — thy all see he has had no time, no one to throw to, terrible System, but the kid has magic.  

[adb280z]

1 hour ago, Vader said:

Darnold wasn’t drafted as a project, a QB that needs to be fixed. He is an extremely idiosyncratic passer — yet he was consensus #1 prospect not just in his draft class but he was viewed as one of the best QB prospects in years. 

Jordan Palmer is irrelevant to Sams success. His footwork could be better yeah. It will lead to some bad plays, yes. But these are irrelevant to his success. How the franchise supports him is what matters. 

They haven’t supported him. He has had the worst roster support of any QB I have ever seen. 

Thats the real reason in my opinion the optics are bad — beyond optics this lack of support is certainly a multiplier that exacerbates the bad habits and potentially can snowball. That is true and I would concede that. 

 

Sanchez year 4 had weapons as limited as Darnold has now.

[BROOKLYN JET]

Just now, Vader said:

Yeah I mean they realize they got lucky. All things being equal though Giants fans I have spoken to think Jets fans are absolutely delusional and would take Darnold in a heartbeat — thy all see he has had no time, no one to throw to, terrible System, but the kid has magic.  

He has magic a few times in a few games, he has not put anything promising together.

The way things are going, we'll be drafting a top QB prospect in the next draft.

[ZachEY]

5 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Saying Darnold needs help in the form of better coaching and a better roster is not saying he needs everything to be perfect, and you know it.

You don’t think Darnold is a good QB. That’s fair, he’s earned it. But going thread to thread every week dismissing the idea that he could have also been ruined by circumstance is either disingenuous or misguided. It’s absolutely true that the talent difference between a chiefs roster and the jets roster is materially significant just as it’s absolutely true that the coaching/game planning/game calling prowess between a Sean Payton and Adam Gase is materially significant.

Aaron Rodgers is one of the most talented QBs I’ve ever seen, and he’s had down years due to bad coaching. Look what LaFluer has done for him. 

Tom Brady is widely considered the GOAT, but check out his production splits on passes in games without Edelman, Welker or Gronk.

If players of that caliber with their experience can be so affected by their circumstances, of course it’ll affect a young, raw player like Darnold. 

It is not disingenuous or misguided as he is the exact same player he was in college.  The ruined notion is a fantasy, and absolutely nothing more.  He also hasn't gotten any worse.  Last year, he played 7 games against the bottom six defenses in the NFL.  He also put up some all time disastrous performances.

And, obviously better talent would improve things.  But, I'd like an explanation as to how the talent level is relevant to these glaring flaws in his game.  Aaron Rodgers is a great example, actually.  He's certainly had down years, but his down years look like Darnold's best games.  The poor talent around him doesn't make him throw off his back foot.  It doesn't make him throw YOLO balls.  It doesn't make him completely ineffective.  It just means that he can't be as successful.  You don't look at Rodgers in those years and say, that's a bad QB.  It's obvious he's still great.  This isn't about production.  This is about complete lack of efficacy at the position.  Differentiating between the two should be easy.  There's literally nothing you can point to that Sam Darnold does well.

[STLuLu]

2 hours ago, Vader said:

Darnold literally is throwing the ball to WRs that would be on the practice squad of other teams. 

So was Kyler Murray last year just like Cam Newton and Deshaun Watson this year. No excuses. 

[Vader]

6 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Ok, so your thesis is that the guy who does nothing by the rules, even though the rules exist for a reason, isn't bad because of that, but because of all external reasons.

Also, if he was the consensus #1, these things wouldn't have happened.  Yes, people were surprised, but this wasn't Andrew Luck or Peyton Manning.  It was a guy with a ton of question marks dropping.

No he wasn’t Peyton or Luck. Ppl recognized that Darnold has an idiosyncratic style — it can be frustrating for classicists but it literally enables all the magic. Its clearly polarizing. But I think Darnold is special if bizarre. He does things literally no one else can do. he is going to have his share of eff-ups but that’s QB. He’s NOT luck or manning stylistically.

He’s an Isaiah Thomas-Brett Favre mashup. He just has NO help. None. 

he has no running game. He has no WRs. He has no defense. He has Had no OL, getting better but still it is questionable. 

 

[Vader]

5 minutes ago, adb280z said:

Sanchez year 4 had weapons as limited as Darnold has now.

Santonio Holmes and Braylon Edwards and Dustin Keller say hi 

[Vader]

2 minutes ago, STLuLu said:

So was Kyler Murray last year just like Cam Newton and Deshaun Watson this year. No excuses. 

Who is kyler Murray throwing to this year?

oh. Okay. 

[ZachEY]

4 minutes ago, Vader said:

No he wasn’t Peyton or Luck. Ppl recognized that Darnold has an idiosyncratic style — it can be frustrating for classicists but it literally enables all the magic. Its clearly polarizing. But I think Darnold is special if bizarre. He does things literally no one else can do. he is going to have his share of eff-ups but that’s QB. He’s NOT luck or manning stylistically.

He’s an Isaiah Thomas-Brett Favre mashup. He just has NO help. None. 

he has no running game. He has no WRs. He has no defense. He has Had no OL, getting better but still it is questionable. 

 

See, the issue with the Brett Favre comparison is Brett Favre had the arm to make these things happen.  Sam Darnold does not.

Could you name a half a dozen plays or so that "no one else could do?"  Because, I've never seen a single play he's made that "no one" (your words, again) could make.

I'm also not a classicist.  I think the pure pocket passer is all but dead.  That doesn't change that Darnold isn't that QB either.  He's not in the same league as Mahommes, Wilson, Watson, etc.  Doesn't have the tools.

[Vader]

6 minutes ago, BROOKLYN JET said:

He has magic a few times in a few games, he has not put anything promising together.

The way things are going, we'll be drafting a top QB prospect in the next draft.

I will bet you 1000$ we will be drafting OL or WR to support Darnold next year. 

[Vader]

8 minutes ago, BROOKLYN JET said:

He has magic a few times in a few games, he has not put anything promising together.

The way things are going, we'll be drafting a top QB prospect in the next draft.

And do you realize he is doing magic with literally not one legit NFL receiver?

[BROOKLYN JET]

Just now, Vader said:

I will bet you 1000$ we will be drafting OL or WR to support Darnold next year. 

No need to bet on it, if they do I hope it's not a huge mistake.

Darnold does not look like an NFL starter right now, and if the Jets are in position to draft a top QB, I hope they do.

[BROOKLYN JET]

2 minutes ago, Vader said:

And do you realize he is doing magic with literally not one legit NFL receiver?

I don't think his magic is going to take him very far, maybe he can do children's birthday parties or something.

[STLuLu]

7 minutes ago, Vader said:

No he wasn’t Peyton or Luck. Ppl recognized that Darnold has an idiosyncratic style — it can be frustrating for classicists but it literally enables all the magic. Its clearly polarizing. But I think Darnold is special if bizarre. He does things literally no one else can do. he is going to have his share of eff-ups but that’s QB. He’s NOT luck or manning stylistically.

He’s an Isaiah Thomas-Brett Favre mashup. He just has NO help. None. 

he has no running game. He has no WRs. He has no defense. He has Had no OL, getting better but still it is questionable. 

 

What does this has to do with his poor judgement and inability to read coverages?

[Vader]

Just now, BROOKLYN JET said:

No need to bet on it, if they do I hope it's not a huge mistake.

Darnold does not look like an NFL starter right now, and if the Jets are in position to draft a top QB, I hope they do.

Haha. Smart man. It’s a popular reaction but very unlikely. Darnold played like sh*t week 1 but today he made improvements throwing to a guy named Malone I literally had to pause for 5 seconds trying to remember 

[Vader]

1 minute ago, BROOKLYN JET said:

I don't think his magic is going to take him very far, maybe he can do children's birthday parties or something.

Witty retort ??

[ZachEY]

[STLuLu]

4 minutes ago, Vader said:

And do you realize he is doing magic with literally not one legit NFL receiver?

One left to go to the Panthers. All he wanted was a hand job to stay.

[ZachEY]

12 minutes ago, Vader said:

I will bet you 1000$ we will be drafting OL or WR to support Darnold next year. 

You want someone who's aware enough to recognize that Sam Darnold is crap to take the side of the action that also requires the New York Jets to make a smart decision?

[Vader]

7 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

See, the issue with the Brett Favre comparison is Brett Favre had the arm to make these things happen.  Sam Darnold does not.

Could you name a half a dozen plays or so that "no one else could do?"  Because, I've never seen a single play he's made that "no one" (your words, again) could make.

I'm also not a classicist.  I think the pure pocket passer is all but dead.  That doesn't change that Darnold isn't that QB either.  He's not in the same league as Mahommes, Wilson, Watson, etc.  Doesn't have the tools.

He’s Not Mahomes, Wilson, Watson, no. He’s never been plugged into a situation like any of those guys though. This Jets team is a void of talent tho — and they lost enunwa and got rid of Anderson, didn’t bring back Demaryus. It’s a sh*t show. Mahomes and Wilson are HOF GOATS tho. I think Darnold can be great but they need to revamp the entire WR Corp and get a new O system. Darnold just revealed today that gase doesn’t let him audible. There’s no presnap motion. There’s no playaction. Let’s see the media run with that information. Sam is not in a position to succeed. 

[sciond]

well he is not Tom Brady, but I think he a serviceable 3rd tier quarterback 

[Vader]

5 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Ha love it 

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, Vader said:

He’s Not Mahomes, Wilson, Watson, no. He’s never been plugged into a situation like any of those guys though. This Jets team is a void of talent tho — and they lost enunwa and got rid of Anderson, didn’t bring back Demaryus. It’s a sh*t show. Mahomes and Wilson are HOF GOATS tho. I think Darnold can be great but they need to revamp the entire WR Corp and get a new O system. Darnold just revealed today that gase doesn’t let him audible. There’s no presnap motion. There’s no playaction. Let’s see the media run with that information. Sam is not in a position to succeed. 

Maybe he doesn't get to make audibles or deal with pre-snap motion, because it's too complex for him as he struggles with even the basics.  Which, makes sense considering how little he has played the position.