Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
ganggreen305

We got fleeced by Palmer.

Recommended Posts

11 minutes ago, STLuLu said:

A QB can't throw TD passes without O-linemen blocking, smart guy. But since you like Seahawk offensive players so much I just used Shell as a reminder to you how great Wilson is. Even with NY Jets' trash blocking for him, he still finds a way to get it done unlike Darnold. 

Just no. No. Please see the previous posts in our conversation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe I missed something, but I don't think that anybody said that Darnold is better than or even as good as Russell Wilson. Therefore, making the point that Wilson can win with less than a stelller OL doesn't really mean much.

The fact that an NFL MVP candidate QB is better than Darnold is not news to anyone with a brain.


Sent from my SM-G975U using JetNation.com mobile app

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Vader said:

Santonio Holmes and Braylon Edwards and Dustin Keller say hi 

Holmes played 4 games

Keller missed half the year

Edwards was waived by Seattle late in the year and played 3 games with the Jets.

Sanchez had very little to work with.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, adb280z said:

Holmes played 4 games

Keller missed half the year

Edwards was waived by Seattle late in the year and played 3 games with the Jets.

Sanchez had very little to work with.

 

Huh? In 2012 he did and the results were ugly.  His first 3 seasons Sam would sell his family to get that supporting cast

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Literally the same exact arguments here for Jets QB's for the last 15 years. 

And the same circle the wagons and burn the witch reaction to posters who point that out. Once Sam is gone, it’ll all be conveniently flushed down the memory hole and onto the next.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jetstream23 said:

 

 

If Darnold waits for below-average WRs to get open....he gets sacked.  If Darnold throws into tight windows where his WRs aren't capable of competing for the catch or worse, they drop it like did Herndon today, he gets criticized for not finding the more open guy.  So he checks down or throws short catchable passes to our below average backups, going 21/32, 179 yards, 1 TD with a 90.5 Rating.  So we'll criticize him for that because he should have been finding CrowderPerriman, Hogan, Josh Malone or Braxton Berrios streaking wide open in a pattern that Gase used to scheme him open.  But I guess he could have just chucked a few down the field and gifted a couple of INTs so that we'd have more fuel for the discussion of how he's careless with the football.  FFS.

Imagine Herndon catches that ball in the end zone. It was a great throw that just bounced off his chest and went threw his hands. Everything else stays the same. 

We still lose the game miserably, but Sam's passer rating is prob over 100, he has two highlight reel throws for TDs and is probably credited with a material bounce back vs. last week in a loss. 

Instead, Herndon drops it. And we have ten threads like this one... When there were actual really terrible things that happened today in the football field for us that could be discussed. Like Bless's tackling? Maye's pursuit angles...wth happened to Herndon? Is our Center injured? How bad is the injury to Perriman? Where can we generate offense next week?  

  • Upvote 2
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jordan palmer comes from an extremely wealthy family. And I'm not talking about Carson. He doesn't need to fleece anyone or even work for a living.

And by the way he has a ton of other clients like Josh Allen.

Maybe Darnold just isn't good at his job



Sent from my Pixel 2 using JetNation.com mobile app

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Jordan palmer comes from an extremely wealthy family. And I'm not talking about Carson. He doesn't need to fleece anyone or even work for a living.

And by the way he has a ton of other clients like Josh Allen.

Maybe Darnold just isn't good at his job



Sent from my Pixel 2 using JetNation.com mobile app
 

Maybe what you are alleging is rather uncritical and without predicate. 

no one cares what you Or “Jordan Palmer” proffers as innuendo. 
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Untouchable said:

Palmer didn’t fleece sh*t

We took one of the most highly touted QB’s of the last 20 years who was known as a natural born gunslinger and risk taker, and stuck him in the most unimaginative offense possible which calls for some sort of screen pass on 80% of his drop backs...

It’s sickening how f*cking inept Gase is.

If you think these assh0les wouldn’t ruin Lawrence too, then you’re kidding yourself.

I saw a 3rd and 3 today where Gase called a 1 yard out pattern to the wr. And they completed it....for 1 yard. Punt.  This guy gotta go. 

  • Upvote 2
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gase needs to go, the season is over, so I’d like us to evaluate him with a different approach for the rest of the year.

I’d say Gase gets fired by the Arizona game in week 5. Then let’s see what we got with someone who will play to his strengths.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

I saw a 3rd and 3 today where Gase called a 1 yard out pattern to the wr. And they completed it....for 1 yard. Punt.  This guy gotta go. 

Yes I called in on the game thread, this guy is terrible.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, TeddEY said:

I don't recall any major mistakes today.  But then again, I didn't make it 4 quarters.  Today was just a wholly ineffective performance, and the throw to Herndon, while dropped - he wouldn't have gotten himself down in bounds, even if he'd caught it.  Only Herndon could catch it at least in part because it wasn't in play.

That he's not good enough to get it done doesn't mean that everything he does is bad, nor that he never makes good plays.  He just doesn't do anything well enough or consistently enough to be successful in this league, and he doesn't make enough positive plays to overcome his bad plays, like Favre, the comparison de jour.

You make some fair points.

We'll agree to disagree on the Herndon throw/catch. I'm petty sure he had both feet in/down when the ball it him in the hands right on the line. I think it was a TD had he caught it. More importantly to me was that, IMO, that ball was thrown in the only place it could be (away from the defender) for Herndon to catch for a TD. I still disagree with your point that Sam has an average arm. He makes throws that I've only seen guys like Vinny and Favre make in a Jets uniform.

I think what Sam does very well is throw on the move. What is baffling to me is why Gase doesn't roll him out more. The OT situation seems to be settled at the moment. The interior still appears to be a concern as it seems to be where most of the pressure seems to be coming from. Again - I'd like to re-watch yesterday's game to see what happened.

Football, as I'm sure you know, is the ultimate team game. 1 player, however good, cannot simply dominate (especially on offense) unlike basketball (as an example). A good RB can look like crap without a good o-line or threat of a passing game. A QB simply cannot succeed without an O-line and competent NFL level WRs. There were 2 guys playing yesterday (Malone & Hogan) who were not even on the radar at the end of July. I also don't believe Gase knows had to adjust his offense to help Sam have success with the limited players currently available

I'm not making excuses for Sam. Yes, he will still make a boneheaded play here and there. I think he played better yesterday than he did vs Buffalo. Has he progressed from year 2 so far....no. I just don't think we can evaluate him at this point. I hope to god Bell, Crowder, Mims, Perriman and Smith are able to play after week 4 to give us a sample to judge with the players JD planed to have around him. I, like others, am beginning to wonder if he is scarred/damaged beyond repair (as a Jet) with what has happened under Gase.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Huh? In 2012 he did and the results were ugly.  His first 3 seasons Sam would sell his family to get that supporting cast

Those guys were barely there.  Holmes and Keller played together in 1 game & I think Keller was hurt during the game.  Edward showed up in late December after being cut, he was done at that point.  The 2012 Jets had no weapons, just like today.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/20/2020 at 11:38 PM, greenwichjetfan said:

I edited my earlier post to include this but you probably didn’t see it regarding the gambler mentality:

Aaron Rodgers is also conservative to a fault. There are numerous articles detailing his risk-averse decision making. That helps him not look like a bad QB when the circumstances aren’t great. Darnold is a gambler. So when the roster is sh*t and the playcalling sucks, he’s still going to try to make that play that Aaron Rodgers would hold back or check down, and that’s what leads to YOLO plays off his back foot. My suspicion is that if you put a better cast around him and get better playcalling, his gambles will look better and those YOLO ints will become HOLY sh*t TDs.

Additionally, I believe that the more time he spends with Gase, the more he’s being stripped of that one unique characteristic that made him such a highly touted prospect. We saw a little of this when he held on to the potential big throw to Crowder on the run last week. When you take away the risk, you take away the potential reward. That’s why he didn’t break 100 yards passing till his 16th completion today. That’s completely a function of Gase’s offense.

I can understand proceeding with caution due to Sanchez before. However, I never believed in Sanchez. Even in 2010 when he was tying/winning games in the 4Q or overtime, I was vocal that the reason he had to pull it out of his ass was because he couldn’t get it done in the first 3 Qs. Also, the difference in coaching and rosters is night and day between the two. Those ‘09 ‘10 teams were some of the most talented in the league, and the OC for those teams currently has had Russell Wilson playing like an MVP for the last 2+ years.

Being from Greenwich, I loved Steve Young growing up. A heisman trophy runner up (highly touted prospect) who went to awful circumstances and looked like an absolute bust. Then he gets to go to a Bill Walsh offense with a superstar roster, and he becomes a first ballot HoFer. 

Of course I’m not comparing Sam to Steve, and I don’t believe Douglas will be able to build that type of roster in just a year or two, and there is no Bill Walsh waiting to be hired. I just think that for a young QB, circumstances are extremely influential in both their play in the moment and also in their career trajectory. 

Your edit is wishful thinking.  I understand the logic, but it's just a hope.  And, I think the YOLO balls are mental breakdowns, not gambles anyway.

I also think blaming the coach is wishful thinking.  Has Gase been bad?  Sure.  But is anyone winning with this crap?  Probably not.  We have a long history of blaming the coach.  Shottenheimer should be the lesson here.  You even bring him up in the positive later in your post.  He was the mostest stoopidest worstest OC in history and now he's calling plays for the Seahawks and winning.  And, before you go, but but but Russel Wilson, it's my understanding that coaches ruin otherwise elite QBs.  So, shouldn't Schotty's playcalling have ruined Wilson?  Or, is there a time frame on the ruining, and the previously good QB makes the stoopidest playcalls of everdom work anyway?

I don't think Sanchez is actually relevant to the discussion of what to do re: Darnold.  They are separate players.  I agree Sanchez sucked, and his play cost us a championship that a league average QB could have delivered with those teams.  But, it's wholly possible, and his play on the field to date indicates, that Sam Darnold can also be bad.

As for the Steve Young example.  Yes, in NFL history we can talk about a number of guys who were bad temporarily and then became good.  But, these cases are nearly nonexistant in comparison to the number of players who were bad and stayed that way.  With this argument, you'd really have to never move on from a high draft pick, unless the circumstances are perfect, and frankly, when a QB is playing badly, there's never a loss of other excuses.  There's probably an argument to be made that Young was a better prospect than Darnold as well.  But, as to your overall point about circumstances, sure, it helps.  But, Darnold is doing the same crap he did in college.  Is it really more likely that this will all go away with a WR and a new coach?  Isn't it more likely that the kid who played 27 college games, with one being on national tv and awesome, is just overhyped and not the player we hope he is?

On 9/21/2020 at 8:28 AM, CTJetsFan said:

You make some fair points.

We'll agree to disagree on the Herndon throw/catch. I'm petty sure he had both feet in/down when the ball it him in the hands right on the line. I think it was a TD had he caught it. More importantly to me was that, IMO, that ball was thrown in the only place it could be (away from the defender) for Herndon to catch for a TD. I still disagree with your point that Sam has an average arm. He makes throws that I've only seen guys like Vinny and Favre make in a Jets uniform.

I think what Sam does very well is throw on the move. What is baffling to me is why Gase doesn't roll him out more. The OT situation seems to be settled at the moment. The interior still appears to be a concern as it seems to be where most of the pressure seems to be coming from. Again - I'd like to re-watch yesterday's game to see what happened.

Football, as I'm sure you know, is the ultimate team game. 1 player, however good, cannot simply dominate (especially on offense) unlike basketball (as an example). A good RB can look like crap without a good o-line or threat of a passing game. A QB simply cannot succeed without an O-line and competent NFL level WRs. There were 2 guys playing yesterday (Malone & Hogan) who were not even on the radar at the end of July. I also don't believe Gase knows had to adjust his offense to help Sam have success with the limited players currently available

I'm not making excuses for Sam. Yes, he will still make a boneheaded play here and there. I think he played better yesterday than he did vs Buffalo. Has he progressed from year 2 so far....no. I just don't think we can evaluate him at this point. I hope to god Bell, Crowder, Mims, Perriman and Smith are able to play after week 4 to give us a sample to judge with the players JD planed to have around him. I, like others, am beginning to wonder if he is scarred/damaged beyond repair (as a Jet) with what has happened under Gase.

As I recall the play, one the ball hit herndon, his feet were up in the air and his knee was on the way down, but, it's mostly irrelevant.  Let's just go ahead and call it a good throw, even if we'd disagree.  I've never said that Sam Darnold doesn't make good throws.  But, Jets fans like to act like when he does, he's just made a throw that no one else in the history of football could make.  You see it with Adams.  Even last weekend.  Some people act like the option is Jamal Adams making a solid tackle, or the defense only had 10 players on the field and no one would be in his position.  Lastly, to your point about Vinny and Favre, sadly, Sam Darnold can be both 1) one of the best Jets QBs of your lifetime and 2) not a very good QB.  I wish that weren't the case.

As for his throwing on the move, it is certainly his strength, but I wonder how it compares to his peers, not to himself.  Is he really meaningfully better than Wilson, Mahommes, Watson, Jackson, etc. at this?  Better enough to overcome all of his shortcomings.  Because, I'm not sure it is.  As I've said before, improvisation is a bonus, it's not a foundational skill, and it's not enough if it's largely the only thing.  I worry that "throwing on the move" is frankly, like we used to convince ourselves Chad Pennington was somehow meaningfully better than the rest of the league at selling the playfake.  It was just a silly narrative to distract from the glaring problems in his game.

I don't expect Sam to dominate.  I don't even expect him to win with this team.  The bar for me, in many ways, may be lower than most.  But, players can play well in loses.  Look at Becton.  The offensive has been a joke, but he's out there rag-dolling grown as men.  Sam Darnold could look better, he could show more, with crap around him.  As discussed with Rodgers, in his down years, he still looks great.  Darnold does not look like a good QB in a bad situation.  He looks like a bad QB in a bad situation that you hope is a bad QB because of the situation.

You have no choice but to evaluate Sam Darnold at this point.  There are two reasons.  The first is he's coming up on extension time.  Can you really go 3 years of mulligans and then pay the guy 30M+?  Not a chance.  Second reason - In all likelihood, we'll be picking in the draft at a time when a highly touted prospect will be available.  Everyone on this website is talking about the fear of Darnold going on to be great somewhere else - which has literally never happened again.  Let me tell you what we out to be afraid of, which actually just did happen.  We left Patrick Mahommes on the board because we were waiting to see what we had in Christian Hackenberg.  Are you willing to take the chance of doing THAT again?

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/20/2020 at 7:57 PM, Vader said:

Darnold literally is throwing the ball to WRs that would be on the practice squad of other teams. 

So tired of this dumb excuse.

 

  • Confused 1
  • Post of the Week 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, DonMaynardFan said:

So tired of this dumb excuse.

 

We complained about the receivers every year for Sanchez and Geno Smith, too.  Bad QB's throwing to bad WR's will still be bad QB's when they're throwing to good WR's.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This (below) is not the result of bad wide receivers.

Jerry Rice and Megatron (in their prime) wouldn’t have caught this.

 

 

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, DonMaynardFan said:

This (below) is not the result of bad wide receivers.

Jerry Rice and Megatron (in their prime) wouldn’t have caught this.

 

"But but it was just one play!"

Meanwhile those same people making that argument will show a clip of one good play by Darnold and say "NO ONE CAN DO THIS"

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

"But but it was just one play!"

Meanwhile those same people making that argument will show a clip of one good play by Darnold and say "NO ONE CAN DO THIS"

Haha exactly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

Your edit is wishful thinking.  I understand the logic, but it's just a hope.  And, I think the YOLO balls are mental breakdowns, not gambles anyway.

I also think blaming the coach is wishful thinking.  Has Gase been bad?  Sure.  But is anyone winning with this crap?  Probably not.  We have a long history of blaming the coach.  Shottenheimer should be the lesson here.  You even bring him up in the positive later in your post.  He was the mostest stoopidest worstest OC in history and now he's calling plays for the Seahawks and winning.  And, before you go, but but but Russel Wilson, it's my understanding that coaches ruin otherwise elite QBs.  So, shouldn't Schotty's playcalling have ruined Wilson?  Or, is there a time frame on the ruining, and the previously good QB makes the stoopidest playcalls of everdom work anyway?

I don't think Sanchez is actually relevant to the discussion of what to do re: Darnold.  They are separate players.  I agree Sanchez sucked, and his play cost us a championship that a league average QB could have delivered with those teams.  But, it's wholly possible, and his play on the field to date indicates, that Sam Darnold can also be bad.

As for the Steve Young example.  Yes, in NFL history we can talk about a number of guys who were bad temporarily and then became good.  But, these cases are nearly nonexistant in comparison to the number of players who were bad and stayed that way.  With this argument, you'd really have to never move on from a high draft pick, unless the circumstances are perfect, and frankly, when a QB is playing badly, there's never a loss of other excuses.  There's probably an argument to be made that Young was a better prospect than Darnold as well.  But, as to your overall point about circumstances, sure, it helps.  But, Darnold is doing the same crap he did in college.  Is it really more likely that this will all go away with a WR and a new coach?  Isn't it more likely that the kid who played 27 college games, with one being on national tv and awesome, is just overhyped and not the player we hope he is?

Blaming the coach is wishful thinking because the team is crap, but blaming the QB because the team and coaching is crap makes sense? When the coach has far more influence on the team as a whole and in this case, the QB and offense specifically? Not sure how you reconcile that. It’s probably more apt to just say you’re done with Darnold and would like for the rest of the fans on this forum to follow your lead.

For the record, being done with him is a perfectly fair take. I subscribe to the notion that Gase has had a negative impact on Darnold’s trajectory, so part of me believes he might be too ruined to be salvaged. But, based on how I’ve always felt about the relationship between a QB’s impact on the team+coaches and the coaches+team’s impact on a QB, I’m projecting him to be better than we’ve seen under Gase - even if he never reaches top 10 status.

——————————-

Regarding Young: I’m aware of the concept of sample size, and I readily stated that Darnold is not on a Steve Young trajectory. The entire point of bringing him up was to provide a reasonable example of the degree of effect that circumstances can have on a young QB: 

After a stellar college career, he was on his second professional team in 4 years and was absolutely horrible. If you pull up YouTube videos of his games, you didn’t see anything that resembled a starting caliber NFL QB. You would’ve been on the Bucs message boards at the time saying things like (1) a highly touted QB either has it or doesn’t (2) nothing we’ve seen of his 4 years in the pros shows he’s better than he was in college (3) he’s a bad QB by every possible measure (4) he was successful in college where he used his athleticism against lesser completion, but has 4 years of bottom feeder production in the pros (5) if you can’t move on now, you’ll never move on.

In that moment, you’d have been absolutely right. As we know today though, he was a completely different player in SF. Not dissimilar to how Alex Smith looked before Harbaugh or Drew Brees before Payton, or Tannehill before and after Gase. And yes, I get that these guys are part of a smaller group than the group that consists of Blake Bortles and Tim Couch and David Carr. But then the number of non-first round draft picks in the HoF will always trump the number of first round draft picks in the HoF. No one is claiming we never draft in the first round ever again.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Blaming the coach is wishful thinking because the team is crap, but blaming the QB because the team and coaching is crap makes sense? When the coach has far more influence on the team as a whole and in this case, the QB and offense specifically? Not sure how you reconcile that. It’s probably more apt to just say you’re done with Darnold and would like for the rest of the fans on this forum to follow your lead.

For the record, being done with him is a perfectly fair take. I subscribe to the notion that Gase has had a negative impact on Darnold’s trajectory, so part of me believes he might be too ruined to be salvaged. But, based on how I’ve always felt about the relationship between a QB’s impact on the team+coaches and the coaches+team’s impact on a QB, I’m projecting him to be better than we’ve seen under Gase - even if he never reaches top 10 status.

——————————-

Regarding Young: I’m aware of the concept of sample size, and I readily stated that Darnold is not on a Steve Young trajectory. The entire point of bringing him up was to provide a reasonable example of the degree of effect that circumstances can have on a young QB: 

After a stellar college career, he was on his second professional team in 4 years and was absolutely horrible. If you pull up YouTube videos of his games, you didn’t see anything that resembled a starting caliber NFL QB. You would’ve been on the Bucs message boards at the time saying things like (1) a highly touted QB either has it or doesn’t (2) nothing we’ve seen of his 4 years in the pros shows he’s better than he was in college (3) he’s a bad QB by every possible measure (4) he was successful in college where he used his athleticism against lesser completion, but has 4 years of bottom feeder production in the pros (5) if you can’t move on now, you’ll never move on.

In that moment, you’d have been absolutely right. As we know today though, he was a completely different player in SF. Not dissimilar to how Alex Smith looked before Harbaugh or Drew Brees before Payton, or Tannehill before and after Gase. And yes, I get that these guys are part of a smaller group than the group that consists of Blake Bortles and Tim Couch and David Carr. But then the number of non-first round draft picks in the HoF will always trump the number of first round draft picks in the HoF. No one is claiming we never draft in the first round ever again.

I'm not talking about the team.  I'm talking about QB play.  I don't blame Adam Gase for the team being bad, and I also don't blame Sam Darnold for the team being bad.  Not one time in all of my posts on the subject could you find that assertion.  The reason the team is bad is that Mike Maccagnan drafted 5 years and we only have like 11 guys on the roster, and nearly half of them are from 2019.  What makes sense, and what I do blame on Sam Darnold, is Quarterback play.  The reason the QB play on the Jets is not very good is because Sam Darnold is not very good.  I think if he were good, we'd still probably be 0-2.

I certainly think, and have said as much, that he can be better with better weapons, and perhaps a better coach.  But, I've also said that this is all a lot of words for a very binary, yes/no decision.  Is Sam Darnold good enough, or do I feel strongly that a better supporting cast/coach will reveal him to be good enough, that the New York Jets should not aggressively pursue a QB.  Absolutely not.

I was 2 when Steve Young was bad, so I'm not certain I can say what I would have thought about his first full season as a starter.  What I can say is that Drew Brees in 2004 and 2005 was clearly a very good QB, and that's prior to Peyton.  The Gase/Tannehill thing is vastly overstated, as Tannehill had a very solid 2016 until injury, didn't play in 2017, and had a decent 2018 and didn't play a whole season.  In TEN, the offense runs through Henry, but yes, he looks to be better - He was also healthy for the first time in a long time.  As for Smith, he went from bad to adequate, and you saw how, despite solid seasons in KC, they were quick to move on.  Don't imagine they regret it - though maybe they wish they could have taken Jamal Adams instead?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/20/2020 at 8:49 PM, jetstream23 said:

 

 

If Darnold waits for below-average WRs to get open....he gets sacked.  If Darnold throws into tight windows where his WRs aren't capable of competing for the catch or worse, they drop it like did Herndon today, he gets criticized for not finding the more open guy.  So he checks down or throws short catchable passes to our below average backups, going 21/32, 179 yards, 1 TD with a 90.5 Rating.  So we'll criticize him for that because he should have been finding CrowderPerriman, Hogan, Josh Malone or Braxton Berrios streaking wide open in a pattern that Gase used to scheme him open.  But I guess he could have just chucked a few down the field and gifted a couple of INTs so that we'd have more fuel for the discussion of how he's careless with the football.  FFS.

This is about as spot on as it gets

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Welp said:

This is about as spot on as it gets

No, its not.  Its pathetic.  It's as if Darnold can't be expected to do anything positive because of his circumstances. 

How long are we supposed to wait for his circumstances to get good enough for him to be properly evaluated?  Because we have to decide whether he's worth $30M+ per season, soon.  He doesn't get any more mulligan seasons.

  • Thumb Down 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

No, its not.  Its pathetic.  It's as if Darnold can't be expected to do anything positive because of his circumstances. 

How long are we supposed to wait for his circumstances to get good enough for him to be properly evaluated?  Because we have to decide whether he's worth $30M+ per season, soon.  He doesn't get any more mulligan seasons.

If I put Tiger Woods on the tee and he drives the ball 127 yards into a lake is he bad?  What if I told you that he had taken that shot off the tee in the middle of a hurricane....and he was swinging a shovel?  How much blame do you put on the golfer vs. his circumstances?

Maybe that's not a fair analogy so we'll give Tiger another shot to evaluate him.  This time it's during a tropical storm and we let him swing a hockey stick.  Another bad shot.  Do we say, "well, he's had multiple chances now.  No more mulligans.  He's just a bad golfer"?

The thing that is truly pathetic is not improving anything for the player and expecting the results to miraculously get better.

Forcing an evaluation simply because we're impatient and we have to decide whether to pay him or not is idiotic.  But if we think it's best to take Tiger off the course and hand a rake to Rory McIlroy during a monsoon, maybe that will work... I guess.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

No, its not.  Its pathetic.  It's as if Darnold can't be expected to do anything positive because of his circumstances. 

How long are we supposed to wait for his circumstances to get good enough for him to be properly evaluated?  Because we have to decide whether he's worth $30M+ per season, soon.  He doesn't get any more mulligan seasons.

Sam Darnold is largely a function of a complex yet dysfunctional system. Does Sam Darnold contribute to the systems dysfunction? Yes, of course, at times. He is part of the system. But he didn’t design the system and he is not responsible for the system components or upgrades. 

It is a pity it is such a deterministic world.

Sam Darnold’s — and the entire system’s greatest moments tho appear to be the times when the system in place breaks down and is overridden by ad hoc bullsh*t designed by Darnold on the fly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/20/2020 at 6:52 PM, ganggreen305 said:

I’m just so down about Darnold.  I was so excited about him this year.  I watched all these videos from Palmer about nobody looks better or is working harder than Darnold.  He’s actually gotten worse with Palmer and Gase.  So upset.  

No one has gotten better with Palmer. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be honest I have no idea what Darnold is, plus we won’t with Gase running the show. Gase needs to go, play to Sam’s strengths. (Rolling our, quick temp, reacting) give him the power to change the play.

The season is gone, use the rest of the time to evaluate Darnold. 

If he’s still sh*te we know what happens next off season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gase is a bad coach but at some point we need to stop making excuses for Sam and recognize that while he may have the physical tools he does not have the mental capacity to play quarterback. He has consistently make elementary mistakes starting from his last year at usc. Maybe with a really good coach and weapons he’d be average, but at that point his rookie deal will be up and he won’t be cheap. We’d be where the rams are with Goff. I’d prefer to draft Lawrence or fields if we can.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/21/2020 at 3:15 AM, bitonti said:

Jordan palmer comes from an extremely wealthy family. And I'm not talking about Carson. He doesn't need to fleece anyone or even work for a living.

And by the way he has a ton of other clients like Josh Allen.

Maybe Darnold just isn't good at his job



Sent from my Pixel 2 using JetNation.com mobile app
 

The Bills have also built on what Palmer teaches and designed an offense to suit their QBs strengths.

Our coach is running  drop back offense with screens and no TEs, even though our QB would be better on rollouts and putting guys in motion in a 2 TE offense.

Its not just one persons fault here.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/20/2020 at 8:07 PM, Untouchable said:

Palmer didn’t fleece sh*t

We took one of the most highly touted QB’s of the last 20 years who was known as a natural born gunslinger and risk taker, and stuck him in the most unimaginative offense possible which calls for some sort of screen pass on 80% of his drop backs...

It’s sickening how f*cking inept Gase is.

If you think these assh0les wouldn’t ruin Lawrence too, then you’re kidding yourself.

Agreed. The so called “QB whisperer” is equivalent to pissing in Sam’s ear. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, BurnleyJet said:

To be honest I have no idea what Darnold is, plus we won’t with Gase running the show. Gase needs to go, play to Sam’s strengths. (Rolling our, quick temp, reacting) give him the power to change the play.

The season is gone, use the rest of the time to evaluate Darnold. 

If he’s still sh*te we know what happens next off season.

Hitting the nail squarely on the head. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, TeddEY said:

Your edit is wishful thinking.  I understand the logic, but it's just a hope.  And, I think the YOLO balls are mental breakdowns, not gambles anyway.

I also think blaming the coach is wishful thinking.  Has Gase been bad?  Sure.  But is anyone winning with this crap?  Probably not.  We have a long history of blaming the coach.  Shottenheimer should be the lesson here.  You even bring him up in the positive later in your post.  He was the mostest stoopidest worstest OC in history and now he's calling plays for the Seahawks and winning.  And, before you go, but but but Russel Wilson, it's my understanding that coaches ruin otherwise elite QBs.  So, shouldn't Schotty's playcalling have ruined Wilson?  Or, is there a time frame on the ruining, and the previously good QB makes the stoopidest playcalls of everdom work anyway?

I don't think Sanchez is actually relevant to the discussion of what to do re: Darnold.  They are separate players.  I agree Sanchez sucked, and his play cost us a championship that a league average QB could have delivered with those teams.  But, it's wholly possible, and his play on the field to date indicates, that Sam Darnold can also be bad.

As for the Steve Young example.  Yes, in NFL history we can talk about a number of guys who were bad temporarily and then became good.  But, these cases are nearly nonexistant in comparison to the number of players who were bad and stayed that way.  With this argument, you'd really have to never move on from a high draft pick, unless the circumstances are perfect, and frankly, when a QB is playing badly, there's never a loss of other excuses.  There's probably an argument to be made that Young was a better prospect than Darnold as well.  But, as to your overall point about circumstances, sure, it helps.  But, Darnold is doing the same crap he did in college.  Is it really more likely that this will all go away with a WR and a new coach?  Isn't it more likely that the kid who played 27 college games, with one being on national tv and awesome, is just overhyped and not the player we hope he is?

As I recall the play, one the ball hit herndon, his feet were up in the air and his knee was on the way down, but, it's mostly irrelevant.  Let's just go ahead and call it a good throw, even if we'd disagree.  I've never said that Sam Darnold doesn't make good throws.  But, Jets fans like to act like when he does, he's just made a throw that no one else in the history of football could make.  You see it with Adams.  Even last weekend.  Some people act like the option is Jamal Adams making a solid tackle, or the defense only had 10 players on the field and no one would be in his position.  Lastly, to your point about Vinny and Favre, sadly, Sam Darnold can be both 1) one of the best Jets QBs of your lifetime and 2) not a very good QB.  I wish that weren't the case.

As for his throwing on the move, it is certainly his strength, but I wonder how it compares to his peers, not to himself.  Is he really meaningfully better than Wilson, Mahommes, Watson, Jackson, etc. at this?  Better enough to overcome all of his shortcomings.  Because, I'm not sure it is.  As I've said before, improvisation is a bonus, it's not a foundational skill, and it's not enough if it's largely the only thing.  I worry that "throwing on the move" is frankly, like we used to convince ourselves Chad Pennington was somehow meaningfully better than the rest of the league at selling the playfake.  It was just a silly narrative to distract from the glaring problems in his game.

I don't expect Sam to dominate.  I don't even expect him to win with this team.  The bar for me, in many ways, may be lower than most.  But, players can play well in loses.  Look at Becton.  The offensive has been a joke, but he's out there rag-dolling grown as men.  Sam Darnold could look better, he could show more, with crap around him.  As discussed with Rodgers, in his down years, he still looks great.  Darnold does not look like a good QB in a bad situation.  He looks like a bad QB in a bad situation that you hope is a bad QB because of the situation.

You have no choice but to evaluate Sam Darnold at this point.  There are two reasons.  The first is he's coming up on extension time.  Can you really go 3 years of mulligans and then pay the guy 30M+?  Not a chance.  Second reason - In all likelihood, we'll be picking in the draft at a time when a highly touted prospect will be available.  Everyone on this website is talking about the fear of Darnold going on to be great somewhere else - which has literally never happened again.  Let me tell you what we out to be afraid of, which actually just did happen.  We left Patrick Mahommes on the board because we were waiting to see what we had in Christian Hackenberg.  Are you willing to take the chance of doing THAT again?

Fair points (although I don't agree with all of them).

If I'm not mistaken, Sam will still have 1 year left on his rookie deal in 2021 and the Jets will then have the 5th year option in 2022 so they don't need to make the 30 million $ decision based on this year.

I'll admit for the first time since we drafted Sam that I've actually been forced to consider the possibility of drafting another QB (besides Morgan)....and that sucks because I believe the kid can be very good. But in all fairness, I want to see Sam playing with Crowder, Bell, Mims & Perriman before coming to that conclusion.

As far as being great somewhere else - I wonder if some Miami fans wish they still had Tannehill. That's what I fear

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, TeddEY said:

I'm not talking about the team.  I'm talking about QB play.  I don't blame Adam Gase for the team being bad, and I also don't blame Sam Darnold for the team being bad.  Not one time in all of my posts on the subject could you find that assertion.  The reason the team is bad is that Mike Maccagnan drafted 5 years and we only have like 11 guys on the roster, and nearly half of them are from 2019.  What makes sense, and what I do blame on Sam Darnold, is Quarterback play.  The reason the QB play on the Jets is not very good is because Sam Darnold is not very good.  I think if he were good, we'd still probably be 0-2.

I certainly think, and have said as much, that he can be better with better weapons, and perhaps a better coach.  But, I've also said that this is all a lot of words for a very binary, yes/no decision.  Is Sam Darnold good enough, or do I feel strongly that a better supporting cast/coach will reveal him to be good enough, that the New York Jets should not aggressively pursue a QB.  Absolutely not.

I was 2 when Steve Young was bad, so I'm not certain I can say what I would have thought about his first full season as a starter.  What I can say is that Drew Brees in 2004 and 2005 was clearly a very good QB, and that's prior to Peyton.  The Gase/Tannehill thing is vastly overstated, as Tannehill had a very solid 2016 until injury, didn't play in 2017, and had a decent 2018 and didn't play a whole season.  In TEN, the offense runs through Henry, but yes, he looks to be better - He was also healthy for the first time in a long time.  As for Smith, he went from bad to adequate, and you saw how, despite solid seasons in KC, they were quick to move on.  Don't imagine they regret it - though maybe they wish they could have taken Jamal Adams instead?

So, for you, QB play is binary based on when you want it to be. So in 1985 Steve Young was a no, and the 49ers are stupid for ever having brought him in. Except in 2020, you get to post on a Jets messageboard that Steve Young was actually a yes and that you could see it from his time in college; nevermind his first 4 years as a pro which were remarkably worse than anything Darnold has put on tape. As I said earlier, it’s documented on YouTube if you’d be so inclined, and I know you know what YouTube is, but as it doesn’t fit your narrative, you’ll just tell me you were only 2 and have no opinion on it. The point of all this, as I’ve said many times: circumstances matter. In this case, the degree that it mattered was taking a clear bust on two different professional teams and turning him into a 1st ballot HoFer.

Alex Smith was clearly affected by circumstances to the point where he went from an all time to bust to one of the most well-regarded game managers in the history of the NFL (according to AY/A).

Drew Brees was let go in free agency before his second contract. I’d pump the breaks on “very good” and probably go with solid at best. Irregardless (on purpose, for levity), even if you want to call him very good, Payton and his team turned him into one of the greatest of all time.

More recently: LJax came into the league as a raw athlete and was considered a project, his first year in the league, he started 7 games and hovered around 58% completions and a 6.98AY/A against a soft schedule. Harbaugh switches coordinators, and LJax jumps to 66% complete and 8.92 AY/A in an MVP season - less than 2 years from being a project and a reach in the first round. And before anyone goes there: I readily submit that LJax is a better athlete and QB than Darnold, no matter what Darnold becomes. Still, my original point stands: circumstances matter. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  



Content Partnership

Yes Network

Site Sponsor

MILE-Social - NJ Social Media & SEO company
×
×
  • Create New...