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Jets slow rebuild a product of disjointed team timelines


joewilly12

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51 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I generally agree, but our talent level seems so low compared to the best teams, I think we could be an exception.

It’s possible that I am overreacting to two bad games, but this team feels historically underpowered to me 

it doesn't matter how much we WANT to multi-year rebuild

it literally doesn't exist in the NFL 

teams like SF will take a 1 year step back to reload while Jimmy G heals from his torn knee or whatever 

but with players average career length 3 years, the idea this team can lose their way to winning is probably the biggest fraud perpetuated on the fanbase in recent memory 

every win a step toward a winning culture

every loss reinforces losing culture

Trevor "Sunshine" Lawrence is not LeBron James

 

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24 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

In essence what difference does the record make. This year was all about setting a foundation.

Well, in Gase's case, it's not just about the record.

It's about the fact that he has trouble getting his teams to be competitive. Consider this: Gase is 30-37 as an NFL head coach, which isn't great, but also isn't particularly terrible. BUT, 29 of those 37 losses were by double digits. Moreover, 24 of those losses were by at least 14 points. Twenty-four losses by 14 or more points in a little over 4 full seasons as an NFL head coach. Think about that. In the modern NFL that is dominated by parity and close games, this is simply preposterously bad. 

The other issue (regardless of what you or I may think) is that the media pressure to replace this guy after watching 14 more weeks of non-competitive "football" (I'm being kind here) will be insanely high. I personally can't imagine the Johnsons not caving to that pressure. 

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2 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Well, in Gase's case, it's not just about the record.

It's about the fact that he has trouble getting his teams to be competitive. Consider this: Gase is 30-37 as an NFL head coach, which isn't great, but also isn't particularly terrible. BUT, 29 of those 37 losses were by double digits. Moreover, 24 of those losses were by at least 14 points. Twenty-four losses by 14 or more points in a little over 4 full seasons as an NFL head coach. Think about that. In the modern NFL dominated by parity and close games, that is simply preposterously bad. 

The other issue is, regardless of what you or I may think, the media pressure to replace this guy after watching 14 more weeks of non-competitive "football" (I'm being kind here) will be insanely high. I personally can't imagine the Johnsons not caving to that pressure. 

Rotoworld referred to the jet offense as ‘an eternal pit of sadness’.  Just about sums it up

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1 minute ago, bitonti said:

it doesn't matter how much we WANT to multi-year rebuild

it literally doesn't exist in the NFL 

teams like SF will take a 1 year step back to reload while Jimmy G heals from his torn knee or whatever 

but with players average career length 3 years, the idea this team can lose their way to winning is probably the biggest fraud perpetuated on the fanbase in recent memory 

every win a step toward a winning culture

every loss reinforces losing culture

Trevor "Sunshine" Lawrence is not LeBron James

 

 I actually agree with almost all of this, but I'm just saying that this team is so underpowered that we probably were always going to struggle for a year or two after Mac daddy left before having a chance to be good again. I mean, look at how many of our draft picks in the last handful of years aren't even in the league anymore. It's unreal how bad our recent drafts have been. 

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1 hour ago, 56mehl56 said:

That's part of the problem , Jet fans have become so intolerant and impatient. I get it , its been 50 years blah blah blah . Look at some of Sam's games last season - Cowboys , Raiders , he has the talent , they just need to solidify the offense. Combine injuries , lack of practice/hitting due to CBA/Covid  and facing two quality opponents right out of the gate the start of the season  was destined to be a nightmare given the circumstances. 

Intolerance of failure is no sin.

Patience with the inept is no virtue.

I agree, stability would be good.   

But you have to have a baseline of competence and talent in order to warrant patience, and justify tolerance of lack of success.

We have neither today in Gase, and probably not in Darnold either.

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1 hour ago, 56mehl56 said:

Was this a CNN report or something you saw on Access Hollywood, cmon why would you feel JD has already given up on Sam  

Because if he had faith in Sam he would never have put him out there with this level of talent.

QB is so important in the NFL that if you have one you don't have to rebuild - and certainly not to this extent.  You need to build around him, not dump your most talented players and sign other teams' back-ups to replace them.

JD is tearing the whole thing down - you don't do that if you like your QB.

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51 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Rotoworld referred to the jet offense as ‘an eternal pit of sadness’.  Just about sums it up

At a loss how an NFL coach calls draw plays straight into the line that he KNOWS have no hope of accomplishing anything. Even worse when you now have an LT that pancakes everyone in front of him. You have a total mismatch every play in your favor and instead you get stupid fancy. Do not get it. Even when the Jets do something smart they don't appear to understand it. 

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1 hour ago, slats said:

1.) Joe Douglas may be hedging his bets, but there's no way he's already given up on Sam. 

2.) A plausible theoretic future scenario where the Jets unload Darnold but keep Gase does not exist. Darnold could (easily, IMHO) outlast Gase, not a chance Gase outlasts Sam. 

We'll have to agree to disagree on 1.  To me, it's clear he's already moved on.

As for 2 - I honestly believe Gase is already on board with this plan.  He helped bring JD in, he's been quiet about the dumping of talent.  You're getting full-throated support from ownership.  JD is fully part of this rebuild plan - was more than likely the key orchestrator of it.

My guess...

Sam is gone next year.  They draft a QB in the first (and sign a legit vet that shakes free for a year) and Gase gets to choose his guy.  

To me, it seems JD and Gase's plan is to build the team first and then bring in their young QB to take advantage of the talent surrounding him.  Basically the Pat Mahomes treatment.

Now, they have to draft well to make this all happen.  But point being, Sam is gone - Gase stays.

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1 hour ago, varjet said:

Follow the money.

Darnold is theoretically a $20+mm/year QB talent who is under contract for cheap next year.

So the Jets are either trading him for high picks or using him.  

I think his combination of good and bad games is a reflection of the coaching.   Who are the Jets signing to play QB better than Darnold for what Darnold currently makes?  Look at what we paid Fitzpatrick and McCown.

He is going nowhere unless he is traded for an Adams like deal, and then Flacco and Morgan play.

Except they don't believe him to be a $20mm talent.  They don't want him.  

But he is still pretty cheap, so they can keep him around but they're almost certainly drafting a 1st round QB.  Gonna draft their guy.

I must admit - my thoughts might be a year early....meaning, to your point, they keep Darnold as the sacrificial lamb one more year during the rebuild then let him go when they have to start to pay him real money. And draft the first rounder in '22 (we'll still have 1st that year)

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8 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Because if he had faith in Sam he would never have put him out there with this level of talent.

QB is so important in the NFL that if you have one you don't have to rebuild - and certainly not to this extent.  You need to build around him, not dump your most talented players and sign other teams' back-ups to replace them.

JD is tearing the whole thing down - you don't do that if you like your QB.

If JD had already given up on Darnold, he would've traded him away and signed one of the many veteran QBs available on the market this year. Instead what we heard from One Jets Drive all offseason was that Darnold was the only thing in the building not for sale. You're just wrong on this particular take, no matter how often you repeat it. 

Doesn't mean he won't be done with him after this year, but there's still a lot of football to play before that decision is made. 

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1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on 1.  To me, it's clear he's already moved on.

As for 2 - I honestly believe Gase is already on board with this plan.  He helped bring JD in, he's been quiet about the dumping of talent.  You're getting full-throated support from ownership.  JD is fully part of this rebuild plan - was more than likely the key orchestrator of it.

My guess...

Sam is gone next year.  They draft a QB in the first (and sign a legit vet that shakes free for a year) and Gase gets to choose his guy.  

To me, it seems JD and Gase's plan is to build the team first and then bring in their young QB to take advantage of the talent surrounding him.  Basically the Pat Mahomes treatment.

Now, they have to draft well to make this all happen.  But point being, Sam is gone - Gase stays.

DOn't think you grasp the Johnsons are very responsive to being mocked in the media day after day. Firing Gase gives then some breathing room. Firing Gase is almost certainly a sensible decision, but it will be done because of that, not any sensible reasoning related to their football team sucking donkey balls again. 

Give Gase that he is responsible for making Maccagnan gone. Don't understand coming off his ignominious exit in Miami he comes in here and craps the bed all over again. The guy has learned nothing. If you want to hold yourself as a QB whisperer or some such nonsense, your offense has to be dangerous. And the Jets are pathetic. 

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2 minutes ago, slats said:

If JD had already given up on Darnold, he would've traded him away and signed one of the many veteran QBs available on the market this year. Instead what we heard from One Jets Drive all offseason was that Darnold was the only thing in the building not for sale. You're just wrong on this particular take, no matter how often you repeat it. 

Doesn't mean he won't be done with him after this year, but there's still a lot of football to play before that decision is made. 

I’m hopeful Gase gets canned soon, and Cooter takes over the offence. Then plays to the guys strengths.

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5 minutes ago, slats said:

If JD had already given up on Darnold, he would've traded him away and signed one of the many veteran QBs available on the market this year. Instead what we heard from One Jets Drive all offseason was that Darnold was the only thing in the building not for sale. You're just wrong on this particular take, no matter how often you repeat it. 

Doesn't mean he won't be done with him after this year, but there's still a lot of football to play before that decision is made. 

Nah, Sam is an inexpensive placeholder - that they can put blame on for this disaster.  Then they  cut bait without massive backlash from the fan base.

No way any QB could succeed with this roster.  As far as JD/AG are concerned Sam is NOT the future..

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2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Nah, Sam is an inexpensive placeholder - that they can put blame on for this disaster.  Then they  cut bait without massive backlash from the fan base.

No way any QB could succeed with this roster.  As far as JD/AG are concerned Sam is NOT the future..

James Morgan could've been the inexpensive placeholder, then. Or Mike White. They're not going to hold onto Darnold and drive his trade value down for another year just for a scapegoat and a little cap savings. No way. Douglas would've gotten a first round pick plus this year, easily. He wouldn't pass that up. 

Joe Douglas has five years left on his deal, Adam Gase most likely has two. They're not tied at the hip. 

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13 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Because if he had faith in Sam he would never have put him out there with this level of talent.

QB is so important in the NFL that if you have one you don't have to rebuild - and certainly not to this extent.  You need to build around him, not dump your most talented players and sign other teams' back-ups to replace them.

JD is tearing the whole thing down - you don't do that if you like your QB.

What ?  JD tried to give Sam improved weapons . He brought in Perriman and drafted Mims and Perine, he couldn't predict all three would get injured along with Crowder and Bell.  What's he supposed do now call up the Cowboys and say hey give us CeeDee Lamb and we'll send you a bag of jocks and two kicking tees or worse yet , we'll send you multiple high draft picks.

Everyone knew the Jets needed to rebuild the Oline and they took that step in this offseason, that's the building block that all else will lay on. Look at the Jets under Parcells, the Cowboys the Oline is super important and they're going in the right direction there.  They also drafted offense for the first time in ages , let's see what Perine and Mims do before we make rash conclusions. 

The over reaction on this board is reaching crazy levels both on the Gase and Darnold fronts. 

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4 minutes ago, Bugg said:

DOn't think you grasp the Johnsons are very responsive to being mocked in the media day after day. Firing Gase gives then some breathing room. Firing Gase is almost certainly a sensible decision, but it will be done because of that, not any sensible reasoning related to their football team sucking donkey balls again. 

Give Gase that he is responsible for making Maccagnan gone. Don't understand coming off his ignominious exit in Miami he comes in here and craps the bed all over again. The guy has learned nothing. If you want to hold yourself as a QB whisperer or some such nonsense, your offense has to be dangerous. And the Jets are pathetic. 

Woody was very much focused on PR before anything else (including winning) - if he were in charge - then yes, Gase would be gone.

CJ hasn't been, he often seems to go against the press just to prove a point - even to the detriment of the franchise (like keeping Mac far too long)

I will say though, If Woody comes back and takes control of the team, all bets are off and yes Gase is almost certainly gone.  But barring that - Gase isn't going anywhere.

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2 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

What ?  JD tried to give Sam improved weapons . He brought in Perriman and drafted Mims and Perine, he couldn't predict all three would get injured along with Crowder and Bell.  What's he supposed do now call up the Cowboys and say hey give us CeeDee Lamb and we'll send you a bag of jocks and two kicking tees or worse yet , we'll send you multiple high draft picks.

Everyone knew the Jets needed to rebuild the Oline and they took that step in this offseason, that's the building block that all else will lay on. Look at the Jets under Parcells, the Cowboys the Oline is super important and they're going in the right direction there.  They also drafted offense for the first time in ages , let's see what Perine and Mims do before we make rash conclusions. 

The over reaction on this board is reaching crazy levels both on the Gase and Darnold fronts. 

I've gone over this so many times this year.

He drafted players - yes - of course - he had to - and he planning for the future and seems to put value in offense..which is a nice change.

Putting rookies aside - the OL was NOT improved - it replaced sh*tty players with sh*tty players.  How has GVR been? How has even McGovern been? Has Fant been better than Beachum?

There were plenty of quality lineman that could have been signed.  He chose to sign back-ups.

He chose to let our best and only true offensive weapon go. 

Did you just say Perriman was an upgrade?  Are you serious with that?

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3 hours ago, slats said:

A bit of revisionist history/fantasy here. There's no telling if Joe Douglas would've even been on the Jets radar back in January of 2019, or is he even would've been available. My guess is that he wouldn't've been. Chris Johnson said shortly after firing Maccagnan that he was uncomfortable firing both Mac and Bowles at the same time because he was a novice owner and thought filling both jobs at once would've been too daunting. I took him at face value there. Letting Mac try to save his job with another predictable first rounder and a huge free agent class was a mistake, though. But he didn't have the confidence to intervene. 

No, this is just dumb. Like really dumb. You fire both, hire a new GM, and the new GM hires the head coach. That's how people with a brain would do it. But we all know the Johnsons collectively have no functional brain.

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3 hours ago, slats said:

 

If the Jets are in top five draft pick stratosphere once again, do they blame the injuries and the coach for Darnold's poor performance? Or does Joe Douglas use the collapse of 2020 to seize control of the team and put his head coach and their QB in place along with JD's second full offseason. With or without Gase and/or Darnold (Gase goes waaaaaaaay before Darnold, IMHO), the team needs to look competent next year at the very least. What's JD's best course of action to get there? Stay the course? Keep Darnold and bring in a new offensive guy who wants to work with him? Or clean house? There's a lot of season left to play, but if the Jets don't stop looking like a bottom feeder by the second half of the year, I think a house-cleaning will probably be in order. 

This is what I think a lot of Jets fans are missing. I see these guys on Twitter defending Darnold and it's like, you don't get it.

If the Jets have a clean slate, new coach, with a potential top tier QB prospect like Trevor Lawrence there is zero chance they are pitching a new coach on salvaging Sam Darnold. Every coach (particularly every offensive minded coach if we go that route) is gonna want the stud elite prospect on a rookie deal. Nobody wants to hitch their wagon to "saving" a damaged QB with happy feet and terrible mechanics who's been submerged in a losing culture for three years.

If we finish with a top two pick the Darnold era is over. It's sad because I'm a believer the kid had potential but there's zero chance we pick up his 5th year option for 25 million and pass on Trevor Lawrence. The reality is that the head coaching hire in 2019 was the biggest decision for the franchise in 20 years and CJ completely whiffed -- he hired a disgruntled fraud with no track record of success because Peyton Manning told him to.

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1 hour ago, slimjasi said:

 I actually agree with almost all of this, but I'm just saying that this team is so underpowered that we probably were always going to struggle for a year or two after Mac daddy left before having a chance to be good again. I mean, look at how many of our draft picks in the last handful of years aren't even in the league anymore. It's unreal how bad our recent drafts have been. 

This is true

and yet this team could have Robby Anderson at WR, Jamal Adams at S, Kelechi Osemele at LG, Demario Davis at MLB, Andre Roberts at returner. Sheldon next to Quinnen Maybe that super unit everyone was always talking about etc.  Teddy Bridgewater at QB. Kelvin Beachum, Brandon Shell are both starting etc. 

Mac even Idzik found guys every so often the problem is this team showed no interest in signing any of the good ones, instead spending what they have to spend on Mosely and Bell. Trumaine Johnson types. 

I don't understand why this team doesn't keep the good players it finds. After a while all the good players they let go adds up to a real team. 

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8 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

If we finish with a top two pick the Darnold era is over. It's sad because I'm a believer the kid had potentially but there's zero chance we pick up his 5th year option for 25 million and pass on Trevor Lawrence.

You're dreaming if you think we're going to get Lawrence. No way we wind up with the #1 pick, and I doubt JD is going to trade the multiple first round picks (like 3) that it will likely take to trade up. We will likely be in the top 10, but not the top 5, by the end of the season, and it would take far too much to trade up.

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51 minutes ago, Bugg said:

True.  But taking a safety when Pat Mahomes was on the board was a catastrophe of unprecedented proportions; even passing on Marino. 

the Jets on one hand will take 2 strong safeties and let them compete 

but they insist on coronating QB after QB without anyone actually WINNING the job 

honest question would Darnold beat out White, Morgan or Flacco in a fair competition

no way 

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19 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I've gone over this so many times this year.

He drafted players - yes - of course - he had to - and he planning for the future and seems to put value in offense..which is a nice change.

Putting rookies aside - the OL was NOT improved - it replaced sh*tty players with sh*tty players.  How has GVR been? How has even McGovern been? Has Fant been better than Beachum?

There were plenty of quality lineman that could have been signed.  He chose to sign back-ups.

He chose to let our best and only true offensive weapon go. 

Did you just say Perriman was an upgrade?  Are you serious with that?

It's two games together in an offseason where practices were limited at best and there was no PS. What do you guys expect  , its takes time for an Oline to come together. And yes Perriman in an offense with Bell, Mims, Crowder and Herndon is a very important piece as someone who can stretch the field probably better than what Robby could and did bring . It just sucks he and several other pieces are injured. 

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35 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Because if he had faith in Sam he would never have put him out there with this level of talent.

QB is so important in the NFL that if you have one you don't have to rebuild - and certainly not to this extent.  You need to build around him, not dump your most talented players and sign other teams' back-ups to replace them.

JD is tearing the whole thing down - you don't do that if you like your QB.

This is very sad, but I can't really disagree with this.

Look at Buffalo, Arizona and even Cleveland.

They drafted the QB high and started building right away, seriously.  Drafting offense.  Trading draft picks.  Big FA contracts.

The Jets are bumbling along but basically doing what Mac should have been doing BEFORE he drafted a QB.  Not drafting S and DT.  

JD is spending his money very carefully.  I don't see him paying Darnold a $25mm fifth year option (I believe they can pick it up and then revoke it if he does not get hurt, like with Coples (another one)).  

FWIW, the Buccaneers replaced Koetter with Arians and let Arians coach Winston before ejecting him.  Tennessee also switched the coach.  Chicago hired a better coach for Trubisky.  

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1 hour ago, viffer said:

You're dreaming if you think we're going to get Lawrence. No way we wind up with the #1 pick, and I doubt JD is going to trade the multiple first round picks (like 3) that it will likely take to trade up. We will likely be in the top 10, but not the top 5, by the end of the season, and it would take far too much to trade up.

Time spent by the Jets this season:

Leading: 0:00

0-0 tie: 9:23

Losing: 110:37

image.png.259ace35f238a87771c7144a34a60bc2.png

I definitely do not share your confidence. We're currently the worst team in the NFL by a substantial margin.

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How does someone look at Week 1 and 2 and think we aren't on the fast track for a Top 3 pick? The team is already imploding and never even got off the ground (no pun intended).

I don't think JD went into the season sold that Darnold wasn't the guy, but if we are sitting at #1 or 2 with a chance to start over with Lawrence/Fields on their rookie contract and most likely a new coach, that is 100% happening.

Darnold is due an extension in a year, and JD would be gambling his career by giving it to a QB he didn't draft that has not accomplished anything in the NFL except sub-par play and mediocrity at best.

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3 hours ago, bitonti said:

This is true

and yet this team could have Robby Anderson at WR, Jamal Adams at S, Kelechi Osemele at LG, Demario Davis at MLB, Andre Roberts at returner. Sheldon next to Quinnen Maybe that super unit everyone was always talking about etc.  Teddy Bridgewater at QB. Kelvin Beachum, Brandon Shell are both starting etc. 

Mac even Idzik found guys every so often the problem is this team showed no interest in signing any of the good ones, instead spending what they have to spend on Mosely and Bell. Trumaine Johnson types. 

I don't understand why this team doesn't keep the good players it finds. After a while all the good players they let go adds up to a real team. 

Examples ; the OL has been from hunger forever. But the Jets drafted  guys like Goodwin, Ducasse and Abushi. All 3 were drafted by the Jets. And while Ducasse struggled here, all 3 carved out decent Nfl careers. Goodwin made a Pro Bowl or 2 and the other 2 were never getting so named, but again, solid pros. But reality is when you draft guys at those positions it's a feather in your salary cap when you don't have to go out and sign the Van Rottens and Osmeles when you already have them.  

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