ZachEY Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 24 minutes ago, jgb said: When a highly-drafted QB stinks it's always "too soon" to evaluate... When a guy comes out of nowhere like Mike White, it's all, "But his Adjusted Air Yards Per Attempt were below league average in his one start!" AAYPA FTW! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 2 hours ago, ZachEY said: People invest so heavily in QBs. It not only clouds any shred of objectivity, but ironically, for years we’ve been accused of rooting against the Jets, but the moment we all as fans, have an actual glimmer of hope at the QB position based on something other than draft status, they’re the ones who can’t enjoy it. Darnold sucked, Geno sucked, Sanchez sucked, Pennington sucked, and Wilson currently (but not definitively or indefinitely) sucks. White Mile White doesn’t suck and it’s all like… “Now you all just wait a minute here!” 43 minutes ago, jgb said: When a highly-drafted QB stinks it's always "too soon" to evaluate... When a guy comes out of nowhere like Mike White, it's all, "But his Adjusted Air Yards Per Attempt were below league average in his one start!" 18 minutes ago, ZachEY said: AAYPA FTW! So true. A lot of these guys are seemingly enamored by the QBs who can make flashy plays. Certainly Darnold and Wilson have both shown they have that in them. Whereas White, so far, takes what the D gives him. Maybe he has a decent deep ball, maybe not. But you would think these fans would realize by now that a big arm or off script abilities do not make a franchise QB. It’s making the boring, mundane decisions and throws over and over that do it. And the ability to lead a receiver well on short throws is crucial too and overlooked by these Darnold/Wilson fanboys. Just because WRs are getting lots of YAC doesn’t mean White doesn’t deserve a fair amount of credit for that. Putting the ball in the perfect spot on short throws is a super important trait that gets overlooked. It sure would be nice to have a QB that can do both - the mundane stuff AND the fun backyard stuff. But I suppose those 2 qualities rarely go together. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said: So true. A lot of these guys are seemingly enamored by the QBs who can make flashy plays. Certainly Darnold and Wilson have both shown they have that in them. Whereas White, so far, takes what the D gives him. Maybe he has a decent deep ball, maybe not. But you would think these fans would realize by now that a big arm or off script abilities do not make a franchise QB. It’s making the boring, mundane decisions and throws over and over that do it. It sure would be nice to have a QB that an do both - the mundane stuff AND the fun backyard stuff. But I suppose those 2 qualities rarely go together. I'll take a boring, smart game manager over a dunce cannon 100% of the time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said: So true. A lot of these guys are seemingly enamored by the QBs who can make flashy plays. Certainly Darnold and Wilson have both shown they have that in them. Whereas White, so far, takes what the D gives him. Maybe he has a decent deep ball, maybe not. But you would think these fans would realize by now that a big arm or off script abilities do not make a franchise QB. It’s making the boring, mundane decisions and throws over and over that do it. It sure would be nice to have a QB that an do both - the mundane stuff AND the fun backyard stuff. But I suppose those 2 qualities rarely go together. I've said over and over again that Wilson is a "flag football QB." He can sling the ball around and run around a bit, but the repetitive boring stuff is what makes someone good. Zach is severely lacking there. Darnold never learned it, and wasn't super physically gifted, so he couldn't overcome anything. Wilson has the gifts, and hopefully he will learn. However, I'm kind of sort of hoping that White Mike White takes the job and we never look back. Team seems to love him, and he just seems like the type of guy that they and we all could rally around. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Jet Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 2 hours ago, ZachEY said: Pennington sucked 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, ZachEY said: I've said over and over again that Wilson is a "flag football QB." He can sling the ball around and run around a bit, but the repetitive boring stuff is what makes someone good. Zach is severely lacking there. Darnold never learned it, and wasn't super physically gifted, so he couldn't overcome anything. Wilson has the gifts, and hopefully he will learn. However, I'm kind of sort of hoping that White Mike White takes the job and we never look back. Team seems to love him, and he just seems like the type of guy that they and we all could rally around. I agree with you on all counts. I think part of this is some Jets fans are petrified that Mac Jones is/will be a good player for NE. So they have to kill anything that resembles his playing style with fire. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 I have repeatedly said that Mike White has a pretty big arm. In fact, through most of camp I felt it was stronger than Wilson's. I'm kind of off that now, but I think that he has plenty of arm. That being said, Drew Brees might be the most prolific passer in history. To the extent he ever had a big arm it had been gone for years and he didn't have any trouble spraying it around and moving the ball. People get too caught up in that sh*t. Yes, if I am drafting a guy, I want a freak with a cannon, but that is not guarantee of success, just as lacking a cannon is not a guarantee of failure. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TheMo Posted November 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 12, 2021 If a singular coach can completely ruin a franchise QB he probably wasn't a franchise QB to begin with lol. Also I guess tanehill is some sort of savant for being able to recover from Gase. This Darnold argument is basically insinuating that you truly believe you couldn't have just been wrong about him. Seems like a psych problem. Cause guess what, I can admit I was dead wrong about Rosen lmao. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJoTownsell1 Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 6 minutes ago, ZachEY said: I've said over and over again that Wilson is a "flag football QB." He can sling the ball around and run around a bit, but the repetitive boring stuff is what makes someone good. Zach is severely lacking there. Darnold never learned it, and wasn't super physically gifted, so he couldn't overcome anything. Wilson has the gifts, and hopefully he will learn. However, I'm kind of sort of hoping that White Mike White takes the job and we never look back. Team seems to love him, and he just seems like the type of guy that they and we all could rally around. My guess is that you are the kind of guy that would have watched Mike White play as a rookie 3 years ago, found some flaws and proclaimed him a dud. I am sure this version of Mike White is far better than the rookie version of him. I am guessing, the same will be true with Wilson. But we are in the twitter age where everyone has to make sweeping conclusions about a player immediately and we cannot dare give a player time to develop. If he isn't great now, he is a bust and time to move on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, jgb said: I agree with you on all counts. I think part of this is some Jets fans are petrified that Mac Jones is/will be a good player for NE. So they have to kill anything that resembles his playing style with fire. I hear you. But, I think that ship has sailed. Mac Jones will be a a successful QB with New England. The question is, how successful? I personally think, not that successful. I think the physical skillset is too limited to be successful against top defenses. I think it's really about the fear that the #2 overall QB might not be good. Another bust of a high pick, and frankly, if White is good, Douglas/Saleh keep their jobs, but you have to be very fearful of them, considering such a miss. What does it mean for us if we had a good QB under our nose, missed him until we had no choice but to play him, and drafted another guy that can't read a defense? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said: My guess is that you are the kind of guy that would have watched Mike White play as a rookie 3 years ago, found some flaws and proclaimed him a dud. I am sure this version of Mike White is far better than the rookie version of him. I am guessing, the same will be true with Wilson. But we are in the twitter age where everyone has to make sweeping conclusions about a player immediately and we cannot dare give a player time to develop. If he isn't great now, he is a bust and time to move on. First off, at no point have I ever said that Wilson is finished, in fact, I typically go above and beyond to clarify that that's not the case, for all the smooth brains that would read "Wilson sucks right now" and decide it means, "Wilson sucks forever and has no shot of improving." Second, Darnold didn't improve. Sanchez didn't improve. Geno didn't improve. So, help me understand why Wilson's improvement is a given, or should even be expected? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alka Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, ZachEY said: First off, at no point have I ever said that Wilson is finished, in fact, I typically go above and beyond to clarify that that's not the case, for all the smooth brains that would read "Wilson sucks right now" and decide it means, "Wilson sucks forever and has no shot of improving." Second, Darnold didn't improve. Sanchez didn't improve. Geno didn't improve. So, help me understand why Wilson's improvement is a given, or should even be expected? You are correct. We don't know yet, but we do know that Mike White is killing it right now. That is what we do know. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 19 minutes ago, TheMo said: If a singular coach can completely ruin a franchise QB he probably wasn't a franchise QB to begin with lol. Also I guess tanehill is some sort of savant for being able to recover from Gase. This Darnold argument is basically insinuating that you truly believe you couldn't have just been wrong about him. Seems like a psych problem. Cause guess what, I can admit I was dead wrong about Rosen lmao. I think the issue is that people throw "franchise" around so much it has no meaning. To me a franchise is a player you mortgage your team for - Manning, Brady, Brees. It's not just your franchise's starter. I think it's hard to ruin a true franchise player, and they are more likely to drag some non-deserving coach up. OTOH, guys like Tannehill that can be good starters are ruined all the time. At least temporarily. I think Darnold was poorly supported and poorly used. They acted like he was some silver bullet to be saved. Once it was obvious things weren't working IMO they should have done more RPO and stop worrying about him getting hit. Play the ******* game and use everything you've got. Can he end up a good starter? Maybe, but he isn't likely to ever be a franchise guy IMO. That isn't likely and IMO means I don't think it's ******* possible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMo Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said: I think the issue is that people throw "franchise" around so much it has no meaning. To me a franchise is a player you mortgage your team for - Manning, Brady, Brees. It's not just your franchise's starter. I think it's hard to ruin a true franchise player, and they are more likely to drag some non-deserving coach up. OTOH, guys like Tannehill that can be good starters are ruined all the time. At least temporarily. I think Darnold was poorly supported and poorly used. They acted like he was some silver bullet to be saved. Once it was obvious things weren't working IMO they should have done more RPO and stop worrying about him getting hit. Play the ******* game and use everything you've got. Can he end up a good starter? Maybe, but he isn't likely to ever be a franchise guy IMO. That isn't likely and IMO means I don't think it's ******* possible. Here's the thing he's not even good at this point. Unless you think Rhule is also bad. At this point you have one constant (Darnold) that people keep changing the other variables (coaches, team, system) around in the experiment to see what the reason is for the outcomes (losses) we see. I think we have enough data to say the constant is the cause of the outcomes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doitny Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 2 hours ago, ZachEY said: People invest so heavily in QBs. It not only clouds any shred of objectivity, but ironically, for years we’ve been accused of rooting against the Jets, but the moment we all as fans, have an actual glimmer of hope at the QB position based on something other than draft status, they’re the ones who can’t enjoy it. Darnold sucked, Geno sucked, Sanchez sucked, Pennington sucked, and Wilson currently (but not definitively or indefinitely) sucks. White Mile White doesn’t suck and it’s all like… “Now you all just wait a minute here!” thats because for all the Kurt Warners and Tom Bradys out there . there are about a thousand QBs who got drafted where they were for a reason, good or bad. and we tried the non 1st rd picks,.. Geno, Petty, Hack,.. Clemons.. we cant even find another Pat Ryan. thats why we have to be cautious of Mike White. i think its great what he did, but he doesnt get an automatic rest of the season. unless hes killing it. your not sitting Wilson for the next 9 games. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doitny Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 23 minutes ago, ZachEY said: Second, Darnold didn't improve. Sanchez didn't improve. Geno didn't improve. So, help me understand why Wilson's improvement is a given, or should even be expected? i know people dont want to hear this but most of us know the offensive play calling has been different the last 2 weeks. we went from 2 run and a pass to 8 passes in a row 2 weeks in a row. i need to see how Wilson stacks up now. its got to be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Nicco Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 15 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said: I think the issue is that people throw "franchise" around so much it has no meaning. To me a franchise is a player you mortgage your team for - Manning, Brady, Brees. It's not just your franchise's starter. I think it's hard to ruin a true franchise player, and they are more likely to drag some non-deserving coach up. OTOH, guys like Tannehill that can be good starters are ruined all the time. At least temporarily. I think Darnold was poorly supported and poorly used. They acted like he was some silver bullet to be saved. Once it was obvious things weren't working IMO they should have done more RPO and stop worrying about him getting hit. Play the ******* game and use everything you've got. Can he end up a good starter? Maybe, but he isn't likely to ever be a franchise guy IMO. That isn't likely and IMO means I don't think it's ******* possible. I don’t disagree… but Name one franchise guy that was franchise right out of the gate though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 5 minutes ago, doitny said: i know people dont want to hear this but most of us know the offensive play calling has been different the last 2 weeks. we went from 2 run and a pass to 8 passes in a row 2 weeks in a row. i need to see how Wilson stacks up now. its got to be better. Right but it’s clear the coaches believe White is more capable of running their offense as intended. That obviously factors in. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 49 minutes ago, ZachEY said: I hear you. But, I think that ship has sailed. Mac Jones will be a a successful QB with New England. The question is, how successful? I personally think, not that successful. I think the physical skillset is too limited to be successful against top defenses. I think it's really about the fear that the #2 overall QB might not be good. Another bust of a high pick, and frankly, if White is good, Douglas/Saleh keep their jobs, but you have to be very fearful of them, considering such a miss. What does it mean for us if we had a good QB under our nose, missed him until we had no choice but to play him, and drafted another guy that can't read a defense? I've always thought it's funny that "takes what the defense gives him" as some sort of indictment for a QB. I mean yeah we all want a guy who can do that and press when the situation dictates but Zach is pressing just to press. "Taking what the defense gives you" is a skill -- you need to diagnose and recognize the weakness and then execute correctly to attack it. This is more important to QB success than being able to make a handful of "flash" plays a game. Of course, it's still very early for both of these QBs. But I don't think optimism for Mike Whites tiny sample size should be seen as some sort of attack on Zach. That's the part I don't get. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 13 minutes ago, doitny said: i know people dont want to hear this but most of us know the offensive play calling has been different the last 2 weeks. we went from 2 run and a pass to 8 passes in a row 2 weeks in a row. i need to see how Wilson stacks up now. its got to be better. Brian Schottenheimer called a different game with Sanchez than with Russ Wilson as QB. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradis Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 "Nico out" 11 pages long and still with legs after a year speaks to the state of the franchise. This is what we have to discuss. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 55 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said: My guess is that you are the kind of guy that would have watched Mike White play as a rookie 3 years ago, found some flaws and proclaimed him a dud. I am sure this version of Mike White is far better than the rookie version of him. I am guessing, the same will be true with Wilson. But we are in the twitter age where everyone has to make sweeping conclusions about a player immediately and we cannot dare give a player time to develop. If he isn't great now, he is a bust and time to move on. This is itself a sweeping conclusion with no basis in fact. We still have people clinging to the Darnold dream. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post jgb Posted November 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 12, 2021 8 minutes ago, Paradis said: "Nico out" 11 pages long and still with legs after a year speaks to the state of the franchise. This is what we have to discuss. Nico's favorite song is the Hokie Pokie. You put your left foot in, You take your left foot out, Make a new account and shake it all about... 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peebag Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 14 minutes ago, Paradis said: "Nico out" 11 pages long and still with legs after a year speaks to the state of the franchise. This is what we have to discuss. Beats discussing Jets football. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradis Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 10 minutes ago, jgb said: Nico's favorite song is the Hokie Pokie. You put your left foot in, You take your left foot out, Make a new account and shake it all about... lol you must have kids. And if not, then that's a tragedy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post slats Posted November 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 12, 2021 26 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said: Right but it’s clear the coaches believe White is more capable of running their offense as intended. That obviously factors in. I don’t think it’s all that clear. If Wilson is 100% healthy and still on the bench two or three weeks from now, then it’ll be pretty clear. My guess is that the coaches are hoping that this proves to be an excellent learning experience for Zach, and that when he comes back he does a better job of getting the ball out quickly, and running the offense as designed. He’s acknowledging that he’s going for the long ball too much and that he needs to incorporate some of what White’s doing into his game. That’s good to hear from him, and I have to believe that the coaches and front office all want to see Zach back in the starting lineup sooner rather than later to see how he does with that. They invested the #2 pick on the kid. It’s in their best interest to have him develop. White can go out and prove me wrong, and I’ll be good with that, but I still expect to see Wilson starting by the Texans game. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Nicco Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, slats said: I don’t think it’s all that clear. If Wilson is 100% healthy and still on the bench two or three weeks from now, then it’ll be pretty clear. My guess is that the coaches are hoping that this proves to be an excellent learning experience for Zach, and that when he comes back he does a better job of getting the ball out quickly, and running the offense as designed. He’s acknowledging that he’s going for the long ball too much and that he needs to incorporate some of what White’s doing into his game. That’s good to hear from him, and I have to believe that the coaches and front office all want to see Zach back in the starting lineup sooner rather than later to see how he does with that. They invested the #2 pick on the kid. It’s in their best interest to have him develop. White can go out and prove me wrong, and I’ll be good with that, but I still expect to see Wilson starting by the Texans game. yup, 2-4 week injury, this is week 3. Why rush him back if the backup is playing well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 38 minutes ago, Uncle Nicco said: I don’t disagree… but Name one franchise guy that was franchise right out of the gate though How many flat out sucked right out of the gate? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Nicco Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said: How many flat out sucked right out of the gate? Most, 2/3 guys you listed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 1 hour ago, TheMo said: Here's the thing he's not even good at this point. Unless you think Rhule is also bad. At this point you have one constant (Darnold) that people keep changing the other variables (coaches, team, system) around in the experiment to see what the reason is for the outcomes (losses) we see. I think we have enough data to say the constant is the cause of the outcomes. Yeah. I guess I should have clarified that. It isn't that I think Darnold is good, it was that I now see his ceiling as starter, not franchise. I was just pointing out that I think still trying to "develop him" like he is a franchise guy and treating him with kid gloves does not do anybody any favors. It certainly doesn't give him the best chance to win. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 25 minutes ago, Paradis said: lol you must have kids. And if not, then that's a tragedy. Three of them! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, Uncle Nicco said: Most, 2/3 guys you listed You think Manning and Brees sucked out of the gate? Guess I will have to agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 51 minutes ago, jgb said: I've always thought it's funny that "takes what the defense gives him" as some sort of indictment for a QB. I mean yeah we all want a guy who can do that and press when the situation dictates but Zach is pressing just to press. "Taking what the defense gives you" is a skill -- you need to diagnose and recognize the weakness and then execute correctly to attack it. This is more important to QB success than being able to make a handful of "flash" plays a game. Of course, it's still very early for both of these QBs. But I don't think optimism for Mike Whites tiny sample size should be seen as some sort of attack on Zach. That's the part I don't get. Everything is an attack when your views are inflexible. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post #27TheDominator Posted November 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, ZachEY said: Everything is an attack when your views are inflexible. You're calling me inflexible? Personal attack! 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMo Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said: Yeah. I guess I should have clarified that. It isn't that I think Darnold is good, it was that I now see his ceiling as starter, not franchise. I was just pointing out that I think still trying to "develop him" like he is a franchise guy and treating him with kid gloves does not do anybody any favors. It certainly doesn't give him the best chance to win. Got it. I honestly think his ceiling is a backup who is defined entirely by his supporting cast. Just has significant limitations. I think if I have him as a starter I am looking to upgrade every off-season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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