6 Years for a reason (Joe D)

[munchmemory]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I don't trust the Johnson's.  Hopefully Douglas tells them to f**k off and let him do the job.  That would be a dramatic shift in the usual process.

And an indication you are on a mega dose of librium.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, munchmemory said:

And an indication you are on a mega dose of librium.

It's either cling to this happening or there's no hope whatsoever.  I prefer to be an optimist on this one.  

I will ride or die with Joe Douglas.

[munchmemory]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It's either cling to this happening or there's no hope whatsoever.  I prefer to be an optimist on this one.  

I will ride or die with Joe Douglas.

I'll spring for the salve when you both fall off the horse.

[redlichtie]

7 hours ago, Adoni Beast said:

Unfortunately, (and this all falls back to J&J being the worst) the first year of the 6 year deal was basically him just evaluating the organization. He came on post-free agency / post-draft. So that’s a wash.

He wanted no part of Gase who was just hired but had to deal with him for a year or two...so that’s 2 out of the 6 already, again wasted time because of the situation our owners created.

Now he will have his 4-5 years with a new coach and possibly new QB. I mean he cleaned house pretty quickly from the old regime. Leo, Jamal, Robbie, Gase soon to be gone, Sam is on the hot seat, Bell will be gone, I wonder if we let Maye walk, he pushed Osemel and Enunwa out real fast.

Let’s see what kind of team this guy can build...and equally as important, let’s see what kind of coach he hires. 

Sorry but even if this is true(which I doubt, cock-up and incompetence usually explain most things rather than some wicked smart plan to achieve world domination through torpedo-ing everything around you) then it’s a huge dereliction of duty and failure to properly carry out his duties as an employee or as a professional.

I think people are being hoodwinked or wilfully led in believing this narrative that a GM can only function if allowed a couple of years to completely destroy everything they inherit, and only then, once absolutely everything in the building is their’s and their’s alone, can they begin to show how brilliant they are.

A competent GM would make smart moves and show off a culture that at least looks professional from the get go.....people are kidding themselves if they keep giving JD this get out.

Douglas was employed to get results now...that doesn’t mean winning the super bowl but it does mean making competent moves and building a culture that fosters success....and he also has a responsibility to the fans who pay thousands every year to watch the team put a product on the field that is watchable.

as of now he has failed miserably 

If he didn’t want Gase as coach or Darnold as his QB then he should’ve said so at the beginning. ‘Sorry CJ but if you want me to take on this gig I want a 6 year deal and a new HC and QB...my first moves will be to fire Adam and trade Sam....happy?...where do I sign?”

He was hired to a team that had just used the 3rd overall pick on a QB the team had committed to developing and giving every opportunity to be successful and become it’s franchise QB after decades flailing around in search of success and stability, to that end it was absolutely right that he provide Sam with every opportunity to show he demands that faith and crucially, if he faltered, that he’d have absolutely no excuses. There is no way that anyone can say that Darnold doesn’t have a legitimate argument to say “what the hell was I supposed to do with this sh!tshow?” .....in that the failure lies as much with JD as with Gase and Sam himself.

we’ve seen Douglas do some nice things in the draft(Becton and some nifty manoeuvring to garner extra picks) but really, little else of note....His signature move to trade Adams massively weakens the team instantly while the draft picks are a long way off coming to fruition, if they even pan out at all.
 

Other than that there’s little to suggest he knows what he’s doing.

 

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, redlichtie said:

Sorry but even if this is true(which I doubt, cock-up and incompetence usually explain most things rather than some wicked smart plan to achieve world domination through torpedo-ing everything around you) then it’s a huge dereliction of duty and failure to properly carry out his duties as an employee or as a professional.

I think people are being hoodwinked or wilfully led in believing this narrative that a GM can only function if allowed a couple of years to completely destroy everything they inherit, and only then, once absolutely everything in the building is their’s and their’s alone, can they begin to show how brilliant they are.

A competent GM would make smart moves and show off a culture that at least looks professional from the get go.people are kidding themselves if they keep giving JD this get out.

Douglas was employed to get results now...that doesn’t mean winning the super bowl but it does mean making competent moves and building a culture that fosters success....and he also has a responsibility to the fans who pay thousands every year to watch the team put a product on the field that is watchable.

as of now he has failed miserably 

If he didn’t want Gase as coach or Darnold as his QB then he should’ve said so at the beginning. ‘Sorry CJ but if you want me to take on this gig I want a 6 year deal and a new HC and QB...my first moves will be to fire Adam and trade Sam....happy?...where do I sign?”

He was hired to a team that had just used the 3rd overall pick on a QB the team had committed to developing and giving every opportunity to be successful and become it’s franchise QB after decades flailing around in search of success and stability, to that end it was absolutely right that he provide Sam with every opportunity to show he demands that faith and crucially, if he faltered, that he’d have absolutely no excuses. There is no way that anyone can say that Darnold doesn’t have a legitimate argument to say “what the hell was I supposed to do with this sh!tshow?” .....in that the failure lies as much with JD as with Gase and Sam himself.

we’ve seen Douglas do some nice things in the draft(Becton and some nifty manoeuvring to garner extra picks) but really, little else of note....His signature move to trade Adams massively weakens the team instantly while the draft picks are a long way off coming to fruition, if they even pan out at all.
 

Other than that there’s little to suggest he knows what he’s doing.

 

 

85 % of a GM's job is how he handles the draft.  Until we see the picks from his first draft class play out a bit you can't say one way or the other whether he "failed" this offseason.  

Becton looks like a hit and I think Mims will be as well when he gets back on the field.  As has been pointed out numerous times, only Zuniga and Hall had an injury history in college.  The injuries for these other guys were not a failure in foresight by Douglas.

[redlichtie]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

85 % of a GM's job is how he handles the draft.  Until we see the picks from his first draft class play out a bit you can't say one way or the other whether he "failed" this offseason.  

Becton looks like a hit and I think Mims will be as well when he gets back on the field.  As has been pointed out numerous times, only Zuniga and Hall had an injury history in college.  The injuries for these other guys were not a failure in foresight by Douglas.

I don’t disagree with your premise here, I’d argue it’s closer to 60% ...and I’m not a reactionary, I do believe in patience and allowing draft classes time. My point is that there are enough worrying signs to not blindly give Douglas an absolute free pass in the catastrophically bad product that we are putting on the field currently ...he’s young and still first time GM so he can learn and improve in the job but I disagree strongly with the idea that it needs two years of tearing it all down down before we see any form of progress which seems to be an increasing narrative here.

[jetstream23]

7 hours ago, Adoni Beast said:

There are many reasons Joe Douglas demanded a 6 year contract, and it wasn’t just because the roster was sh*t (which it was / still is).

- Gase lobbied for Douglas, but it’s clear Douglas did not believe in Gase as a head coach.

- Whatever Douglas has said about Darnold publicly doesn’t mean anything. He has done bare minimum for him.

Douglas originally declined the offer to come here when it was first offered for 4-5 years. GM jobs don’t come along often and if you believe in your “friend” as a head coach, and your young QB as a franchise quarterback, you take that 4-5 year offer. Obviously, the timing of the Mac firing/Gase hiring made it impossible for Douglas to recommend he be able to hire his own coach right off the bat. So he said, hey I didn’t hire that coach...I didn’t draft that quarterback. I don’t want to be held responsible for them.

Last year was a wash because Douglas basically came on at the start of the season, but it’s obvious he was just waiting Gase out. 

Conversely, it doesn’t seem like he was a big believer in Darnold either (have him no weapons) but figured he’d bolster the OL a little bit to see if he could still evaluate him.

The Jamal Adams trade was the final piece, which he already tried to last year. He wanted picks, to punt on last/this season, get a new coach...and possibly new quarterback.

It’s a shame that it all had to go this way, and that Sam is most likely going to be the sacrificial lamb. The Johnsons have no one to blame but themselves for this mess.

J & J:

- Kept Mac/Bowles around for drafting Sam and entrusting his rookie season and development to them. 

- Fired Bowles but keep the equally inept GM to botch the hiring process that was supposed to be for Sam’s development. 

- Hired Adam Gase, a guy so hotly sought after, only one other team (Zona) interviewed him that offseason. 

- Fired the inept GM after this unwanted coach demanded it. 

I mean you can’t make this stuff up. Fans and media alike all knew that Gase would be a disaster, think about that. Everyone knew / no one was praising this hire.

We could have had Rhule or Kingbury or played it safe and hired McCarthy (who I don’t think we would have won a super bowl with but he would have at least developed Darnold the right way and into a good quarterback).

Douglas demanded 6 years for a reason and definitely acted like a man who had time and control on his side this draft/off season. I hope that we can get rid of Gase asap...let’s see if we can evaluate Sam for the rest of the season to see if there is anything worth salvaging.

What is going to be interesting in this head coach search is: 1. Will JD want Sam back? 2. How will the coaching candidates feel about Sam? He is the biggest variable in that equation and the sooner we at least look at how he plays for JBC/Gregg instead of Gase/Dowell the sooner we may have some better insight.

 

Fire now. 

 

Question - Is Joe Douglas stupid or a liar?  He has to be somewhat of one or the other, right?  When he came to the Jets he told Christopher Johnson that a major roster rebuild was needed but that the key pieces of HC and QB were in place.  Douglas didn't arrive here to be GM of a team that had just hired a new HC and gave that coach a big contract (and who hadn't even coached one game yet), telling CJ that, "we'll see if this guy works out."  We all know that Gase was behind Maccagnan getting fired, he was named interim GM and traded Darron Lee 24 hours later.  Gase advocated for Douglas and we best believe that during the interview process Douglas was asked about working with Gase, Darnold and the organization.  There is no way that Douglas came to the Jets telling CJ that, "The coach you just hired and who convinced you to fire your GM may not be the right guy.  Oh, and the guy you think might be a franchise QB....I watched all his film from his 2018 rookie year and we may be looking for a new QB too."

So, either Joe Douglas came here knowing that every single piece of the football org needed to be torn down including HC, staff, QB and the entire roster....and he lied about it.  Or, Douglas poorly assessed and evaluated how good of a HC Adam Gase is and how good of a QB Darnold is.  Douglas had already scouted the Jets before he came here.  He thought he knew the team's strengths and weaknesses, he had barrels of film on Sam Darnold from college and the pre-Draft process in 2018, as well as 1 season of tape on Darnold against NFL competition his rookie year.  Douglas knew Gase from their time in Chicago together and there's many years of data on Gase as an assistant, an offensive coach and a Head Coach.  Douglas came to the Jets because he felt like there were already some solid brinks in the foundation and that the recent key decisions the organization had made (hiring Gase, drafting Darnold) were things he could work with.  Douglas wanted to be in this situation with these people.

So, did he lie about what needed to be done or is he just a poor assessor of talent including QBs and coaches?  Unless I'm missing something it kinda has to be one or the other.

[Jetsfan80]

6 minutes ago, redlichtie said:

I don’t disagree with your premise here, I’d argue it’s closer to 60% ...and I’m not a reactionary, I do believe in patience and allowing draft classes time. My point is that there are enough worrying signs to not blindly give Douglas an absolute free pass in the catastrophically bad product that we are putting on the field currently ...he’s young and still first time GM so he can learn and improve in the job but I disagree strongly with the idea that it needs two years of tearing it all down down before we see any form of progress which seems to be an increasing narrative here.

Fair points.  I do expect the team to be exponentially better in 2021 and to be a contender by 2022.  Failing that I'll be right there in criticizing Douglas as well.  

[Jetsfan80]

8 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

So, did he lie about what needed to be done or is he just a poor assessor of talent including QBs and coaches?  Unless I'm missing something it kinda has to be one or the other.

He said he wanted Jamal Adams to be a "Jet for life" and then sent him packing to the Pacific Northwest not long after.

It's far more likely he lies on occasion, and that's a good thing.  The best GM's have some "Machiavellian" characteristics to them.  Macc telegraphed a lot of his moves and other teams and player agents took full advantage of that constantly.

[redlichtie]

3 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

We are seeing progress, albeit very slowly.  The OL is improved, with Becton already looking like a hit. 

Is it his fault that Mims, with no injury history in college, is hurt, along with the rest of the draft class (Zuniga aside, who was drafted with a known and extensive injury history)?  It's been well-established that Gase is the common denominator on the extreme injury issues that followed him from Miami.

Mims played with a broken hand in 2018, showed toughness to play through the injury and it may have explained his higher number of drops his junior year but not strictly accurate to say he had no injury history in college. There’s still a big question around why Gase teams are so susceptible to injury, it’s way beyond misfortune at this point 

[jetstream23]

9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

He said he wanted Jamal Adams to be a "Jet for life" and then sent him packing to the Pacific Northwest not long after.

It's far more likely he lies on occasion, and that's a good thing.  The best GM's have some "Machiavellian" characteristics to them.  Macc telegraphed a lot of his moves and other teams and player agents took full advantage of that constantly.

Agree 100%, but he didn't come here caring much about Jamal Adams as a key part of this team.  Jamal was always going to be a poker chip.  But Douglas hitched his wagon (at least the first 2-3 years) to Adam Gase and Sam Darnold given their contract situations.  I can't imagine Douglas joining a team that had just hired a new HC three months earlier if he wasn't endorsing that HC.  And, Gase didn't come here having the #3 overall Draft pick heading into Year 2 of a 4/5 year deal if he wasn't endorsing Darnold as a QB.

That is how the situation stacked up.  If we remember the Winter of 2018-2019 the entire focus post-Bowles was finding a guy to develop Sam Darnold.  It was Priority One....hiring an offensive-minded coach following our Mangini, Rex, Bowles days.  Whether it was McCarthy, Kingsbury or whoever, that was the focus.  Gase came here hitching his wagon to Darnold.  Douglas came here hitching his wagon to Gase and telling CJ that it was his (Douglas) job to get Gase and Darnold the supporting cast that will unleash the offense.

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, redlichtie said:

Mims played with a broken hand in 2018, showed toughness to play through the injury and it may have explained his higher number of drops his junior year but not strictly accurate to say he had no injury history in college. There’s still a big question around why Gase teams are so susceptible to injury, it’s way beyond misfortune at this point 

Didn't know that about Mims.  Good info.  

The Gase injury problem is legit, for sure.  Since it followed him from Miami I put that 100 % at his feet.

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

Agree 100%, but he didn't come here caring much about Jamal Adams as a key part of this team.  Jamal was always going to be a poker chip.  But Douglas hitched his wagon (at least the first two years) to Adam Gase and Sam Darnold given their contract situations.  I can't imagine Douglas joining a team that had just hired a new HC three months earlier if he wasn't endorsing that HC.  And, Gase didn't come here having the #3 overall Draft pick heading into Year 2 of a 4/5 year deal if he wasn't endorsing Darnold as a QB.

That is how the situation stacked up.  If we remember the Winter of 2018-2019 the entire focus post-Bowles was finding a guy to develop Sam Darnold.  It was Priority One....hiring an offensive-minded coach following our Mangini, Rex, Bowles days.  Whether it was McCarthy, Kingsbury or whoever, that was the focus.  Gase came here hitching his wagon to Darnold.  Douglas came here hitching his wagon to Gase and telling CJ that it was his (Douglas) job to get Gase and Darnold the supporting cast that will unleash the offense.

 

Gase essentially hired Douglas, not the Johnson's.  So of course he had to, at least temporarily, hitch his wagon to Gase.

He just finished his first full offseason and has been more or less evaluating the roster.  Just like many of us, he was probably hoping Darnold would take a step forward in 2019-2020 and not necessitate the need for a new QB.  It didn't happen.  

Gotta give Douglas the chance to hire a HC and select his QB.  If he fails at those 2 key items, obviously he won't be the answer at GM.  But this idea that he was going to walk through the door and immediately get rid of Gase and Darnold just makes no sense given the circumstances.  Why create THAT many issues for yourself that you need to solve right away?  

[jetstream23]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Gase essentially hired Douglas, not the Johnson's.  So of course he had to, at least temporarily, hitch his wagon to Gase.

He just finished his first full offseason and has been more or less evaluating the roster.  Just like many of us, he was probably hoping Darnold would take a step forward in 2019-2020 and not necessitate the need for a new QB.  It didn't happen.  

Gotta give Douglas the chance to hire a HC and select his QB.  If he fails at those 2 key items, obviously he won't be the answer at GM.  But this idea that he was going to walk through the door and immediately get rid of Gase and Darnold just makes no sense given the circumstances.  Why create THAT many issues for yourself that you need to solve right away?  

That's the key point, right there.  If Joe Douglas, after scouting, evaluating and assessing the most important player on the team for two years had to "hope" Darnold would take another step then he's not the right GM.  He had college film, he had Pro Day and other evaluation data, he had NFL game film of Darnold in 2018 against pro competition.  There was no more guess work.  The biggest risk in a Draft is not knowing how a college QB will do when real bullets start flying in the battle of NFL games.  Douglas didn't have that risk.  He had enough information to make an accurate assessment as to whether Darnold had the chops to be a NFL QB or he didn't.  He should KNOW, not hope, that Darnold would take another step forward.....and if Darnold didn't then he needs to figure out why - Was it the roster and circumstances, the coaching Darnold has been getting, or does Joe Douglas, despite having Pro level film, not know how to evaluate QBs?

 

[Jetsfan80]

16 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

That's the key point, right there.  If Joe Douglas, after scouting, evaluating and assessing the most important player on the team for two years had to "hope" Darnold would take another step then he's not the right GM.  He had college film, he had Pro Day and other evaluation data, he had NFL game film of Darnold in 2018 against pro competition.  There was no more guess work.  The biggest risk in a Draft is not knowing how a college QB will do when real bullets start flying in the battle of NFL games.  Douglas didn't have that risk.  He had enough information to make an accurate assessment as to whether Darnold had the chops to be a NFL QB or he didn't.  He should KNOW, not hope, that Darnold would take another step forward.....and if Darnold didn't then he needs to figure out why - Was it the roster and circumstances, the coaching Darnold has been getting, or does Joe Douglas, despite having Pro level film, not know how to evaluate QBs?

 

 

Oh please.  Even if you are confident a QB won't work out, you still hope you're wrong.  Because sometimes you can't always tell with QB's which ones will be useful.

We've been seeing thread after thread on JN talking about how Ryan Tannehill, a bad prospect, turned things around.  

People are going to use Darnold to make Douglas look bad regardless, and its stupid.  Darnold sucking and Douglas deciding to wait to address the QB position for a bit is not a negative on his resume.  It's a negative on Gase and Darnold himself.  At pick 11, which QB did you want Douglas to go after in the 2020 class if he was supposed to address it right away?  Jalen Hurts?

Let him pick his HC and QB and go from there.  If they don't work out, he's not the right GM.  If they do, he is.  It's as simple as that.