The QB Thread

[jvill 51]

On 3/21/2021 at 7:55 PM, maury77 said:

With all the Wilson rumors, does anyone wanna take turns breaking down his plays from this season? I'm willing to do a game or 2, but not all of them. 

Lol, I started rewatching all his games last week. Think I had previously only watched 3 or 4 (Coastal, Boise, whoever they played in the bowl game and some other random game I can’t remember). Wish I saw this video earlier. Was going to do Fields as well, but not much has changed on my take on him from earlier in this thread except that I’m now completely sold on his arm after some trepidation from his 2019 tape (which I think can be fairly attributed to a pretty noticeable improvement in the consistency of his mechanics, and is also why I have to laugh at Chris Simms knocking his mechanics).

[TheMo]

6 hours ago, nycdan said:

See this is what makes me laugh and cry.

Yes, Lamar is faster.  But you manage to completely sweep under the rug of your argument that Fields is a highly accurate passer with a completion % of 68.4 and Lamar rocked a 57.0 % in college.  There is nothing comparable in their college games.  Calling Fields a running QB is nothing more than a way to move him out of the way so he doesn't obscure the view of Zach Wilson's pedestal.  

If you are focusing purely on game speed and agility, you might as well say Zach Wilson's ceiling is a poor man's Fields.  Or does passing skill only count for some QBs?

It’s actually the pedestal for him is Sewell. I mean his comparison for Fields is geno “I threw bubble screens all day” smith. But Sewell who has had two knee surgeries and’s hasn’t played at all this year is Anthony Munoz reincarnate. Doesn’t follow any stream of logic. So in a way not that dissimilar from Wilson stans. 

[nycdan]

2 minutes ago, TheMo said:

It’s actually the pedestal for him is Sewell. I mean his comparison for Fields is geno “I threw bubble screens all day” smith. But Sewell who has had two knee surgeries and’s hasn’t played at all this year is Anthony Munoz reincarnate. Doesn’t follow any stream of logic. So in a way not that dissimilar from Wilson stans. 

I guess you can add Pitts to the pedestal parade.  I like him.  A lot.  But there is a lot of stone-cold certainty about the inevitable trajectory of his career despite the overwhelming evidence that 1st round TEs bust as often as not, and the best TEs often come from later rounds.  

At the end of the day, you have to draft someone, but I find people who 'know' things at this point a little prickly.

[maury77]

10 hours ago, jvill 51 said:

Lol, I started rewatching all his games last week. Think I had previously only watched 3 or 4 (Coastal, Boise, whoever they played in the bowl game and some other random game I can’t remember). Wish I saw this video earlier. Was going to do Fields as well, but not much has changed on my take on him from earlier in this thread except that I’m now completely sold on his arm after some trepidation from his 2019 tape (which I think can be fairly attributed to a pretty noticeable improvement in the consistency of his mechanics, and is also why I have to laugh at Chris Simms knocking his mechanics).

I'm watching Wilson and not much has changed of my earlier opinion from December when I first watched him. I think the "he played against bad competition" argument needs nuance. The fact that he played bad teams doesn't make him a bad prospect (he can't control who he plays against). The thing about the bad competition is that Wilson tries to play like a gunslinger ala Mahomes (or even Favre if you want to go further back) and he can against the Louisiana Techs and Navys of the world. The problem shows up when he plays against better athletes (like the Washington game). Wilson has a good arm, but he isn't in the Mahomes and Josh Allen category either. My point is that a lot of the plays Wilson pulls off against defenses with sub par athletes are going to get picked off in the NFL where the linebackers and cornerbacks are a lot more talented. For example, Wilson likes to scramble to his right and throw into the middle of the field. This is almost universally considered a bad thing until Mahomes came along. Well, Mahomes can do that because he has a top 2-3 arm in the league and he can fit the ball into ridiculously small windows. When Darnold tries that stuff, we have seen the results because Darnold doesn't have a Mahomes arm. The only guys that can successfully play like Mahomes are guys that have top 2-3 arms in the NFL. I don't think WIlson's play style will thrive in the NFL because he doesn't have an elite arm. 

[Philc1]

13 hours ago, TheMo said:

It’s actually the pedestal for him is Sewell. I mean his comparison for Fields is geno “I threw bubble screens all day” smith. But Sewell who has had two knee surgeries and’s hasn’t played at all this year is Anthony Munoz reincarnate. Doesn’t follow any stream of logic. So in a way not that dissimilar from Wilson stans. 

Geno Fields ?

[Philc1]

19 hours ago, nycdan said:

See this is what makes me laugh and cry.

Yes, Lamar is faster.  But you manage to completely sweep under the rug of your argument that Fields is a highly accurate passer with a completion % of 68.4 and Lamar rocked a 57.0 % in college.  There is nothing comparable in their college games.  Calling Fields a running QB is nothing more than a way to move him out of the way so he doesn't obscure the view of Zach Wilson's pedestal.  

If you are focusing purely on game speed and agility, you might as well say Zach Wilson's ceiling is a poor man's Fields.  Or does passing skill only count for some QBs?

Fields is throwing to future pro bowlers at Ohio State who are wide open all day on his first read.  Lamar was playing at Louisville - top program but definitely not Ohio State in as far as talent for him to work with

 

And can you guys back off the college completion percentage nonsense?  You were the same people who labeled Josh Allen Hack 2.0 because he had 56% completion percentage at Wyoming

[Philc1]

19 hours ago, kdels62 said:

If Fields falls to 23 then a lot of GMs are gonna get fired. Fields is a better thrower of the football than Jackson and has the arm to reach any part of the field. 

 

Geno had similar speed and his arm could reach anywhere on the field too.  

[TheMo]

9 hours ago, Philc1 said:

 

Geno had similar speed and his arm could reach anywhere on the field too.  

Patrick mahomes had an arm that could reach anywhere on the field and was mobile. Josh Allen as well. This is a very incoherent thought process. 

[Philc1]

5 hours ago, TheMo said:

Patrick mahomes had an arm that could reach anywhere on the field and was mobile. Josh Allen as well. This is a very incoherent thought process. 

The ironic thing is outside of Lawrence this is a really crappy QB class.  Sam Howell who will be coming out in next year’s draft would be rated as the second pick overall in this draft ahead of both Fields and Wilson and same could be said about Corrall, Ridder, Slovis etc

[maury77]

The ironic thing is outside of Lawrence this is a really crappy QB class.  Sam Howell who will be coming out in next year’s draft would be rated as the second pick overall in this draft ahead of both Fields and Wilson and same could be said about Corrall, Ridder, Slovis etc

I haven’t done an extensive look at next years guys, but I’ve seen a bit of Howell as a result of watching the NCU guys in this year’s draft and there is no way in hell that Howell is a better prospect than Fields


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[kdels62]

5 hours ago, Philc1 said:

The ironic thing is outside of Lawrence this is a really crappy QB class.  Sam Howell who will be coming out in next year’s draft would be rated as the second pick overall in this draft ahead of both Fields and Wilson and same could be said about Corrall, Ridder, Slovis etc

Howell will comfortably not be a first rounder next year. Slovis is genuinely terrible. 

[maury77]

14 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Howell will comfortably not be a first rounder next year. Slovis is genuinely terrible. 

Riddler from Cincinatti looks interesting

[kdels62]

8 minutes ago, maury77 said:

Riddler from Cincinatti looks interesting

I actually think he would’ve been an early second rounder or late first rounder in this draft if he’d declared.

[section314]

Heard something very interesting last night on NFL Network when they were showing Mac Jones' workout. The host (forget who it was) said he was on the field with some scouts, and they asked each other if they felt Jones ad already hit his ceiling? If the answer was yes, or even pretty close, doesn't sound like the type of guy you be wasting a #1 pick on.

[section314]

Just now, section314 said:

Heard something very interesting last night on NFL Network when they were showing Mac Jones' workout. The host (forget who it was) said he was on the field with some scouts, and they asked each other if they felt Jones ad already hit his ceiling? If the answer was yes, or even pretty close, doesn't sound like the type of guy you be wasting a #1 pick on.

 would

[Averagejetsfan1421]

I think we have to pass on selecting a quarterback in early rounds, 2022 draft class is stacked with quarterbacks from what I've seen,  we need playmakers OL,WR,CB

[JohnnyLV]

Watched Mac Jones throwing yesterday. Thought he was pretty unimpressive. Threw one nice deep ball, missed pretty bad on several throws didnt really look smooth when trying to demonstrate his mobility.

Wilson is far and way the best prospect, not going to change my mind on that. Thought maybe a trade down and get Jones could be a 1A option but I think not.

[JohnnyLV]

On 3/23/2021 at 5:43 AM, maury77 said:

I'm watching Wilson and not much has changed of my earlier opinion from December when I first watched him. I think the "he played against bad competition" argument needs nuance. The fact that he played bad teams doesn't make him a bad prospect (he can't control who he plays against). The thing about the bad competition is that Wilson tries to play like a gunslinger ala Mahomes (or even Favre if you want to go further back) and he can against the Louisiana Techs and Navys of the world. The problem shows up when he plays against better athletes (like the Washington game). Wilson has a good arm, but he isn't in the Mahomes and Josh Allen category either. My point is that a lot of the plays Wilson pulls off against defenses with sub par athletes are going to get picked off in the NFL where the linebackers and cornerbacks are a lot more talented. For example, Wilson likes to scramble to his right and throw into the middle of the field. This is almost universally considered a bad thing until Mahomes came along. Well, Mahomes can do that because he has a top 2-3 arm in the league and he can fit the ball into ridiculously small windows. When Darnold tries that stuff, we have seen the results because Darnold doesn't have a Mahomes arm. The only guys that can successfully play like Mahomes are guys that have top 2-3 arms in the NFL. I don't think WIlson's play style will thrive in the NFL because he doesn't have an elite arm. 

His arm is not Mahomes or Allen but it is still elite. People doing a lot of mental gymnastics and rationalizations to not like Wilson. Simms explains the falsity of the "level of competition" argument well and to be honest there is no correlation whatsoever to small school QBs not being able to play in the NFL nor the elite schools producing more NFL ready QBs. Fact is Simms has been beyond good at evaluating QBs and he loves Wilson. He accurately predicted the issues Sam would have in the NFL before the draft. He was all over Mahomes. And Greg Cossell another analyst great at predicting QBs in the NFL loves Wilson too. Even JT O'Sullivan in his QB school videos started out trying to downplay and downgrade Wilson but he is absolutely gushing about him.

Small school QBs succeed in the NFL if they have NFL traits. And Wilson does. He wasn't just good last year, he was off the charts.

[maury77]

1 hour ago, johnnysd said:

His arm is not Mahomes or Allen but it is still elite. People doing a lot of mental gymnastics and rationalizations to not like Wilson. Simms explains the falsity of the "level of competition" argument well and to be honest there is no correlation whatsoever to small school QBs not being able to play in the NFL nor the elite schools producing more NFL ready QBs. Fact is Simms has been beyond good at evaluating QBs and he loves Wilson. He accurately predicted the issues Sam would have in the NFL before the draft. He was all over Mahomes. And Greg Cossell another analyst great at predicting QBs in the NFL loves Wilson too. Even JT O'Sullivan in his QB school videos started out trying to downplay and downgrade Wilson but he is absolutely gushing about him.

Small school QBs succeed in the NFL if they have NFL traits. And Wilson does. He wasn't just good last year, he was off the charts.

Literally look at the 1st pass on the video. It's a deep shot down the right sideline and the ball is underthrown and the ball placement is bad (should have been placed over the right shoulder so the CB would have no shot at it). Just because he doesn't have an elite arm doesn't mean he has a bad arm, it isn't a black and white issue. I could give 2 sh!ts about Simm's opinion, I'm not going to doubt what my eyes see. Simms also had Jaycee Horn outside of his top 5 CBs and Dyami Brown ahead of Jaylen Waddle. Same goes for Cosell. I've watched 7 games on Wilson already. Again, he's a good prospect (I think he's a late round 1 prospect), but he's not on the same level as Lawrence or Fields. 

[kdels62]

9 minutes ago, maury77 said:

Literally look at the 1st pass on the video. It's a deep shot down the right sideline and the ball is underthrown and the ball placement is bad (should have been placed over the right shoulder so the CB would have no shot at it). Just because he doesn't have an elite arm doesn't mean he has a bad arm, it isn't a black and white issue. I could give 2 sh!ts about Simm's opinion, I'm not going to doubt what my eyes see. Simms also had Jaycee Horn outside of his top 5 CBs and Dyami Brown ahead of Jaylen Waddle. Same goes for Cosell. I've watched 7 games on Wilson already. Again, he's a good prospect (I think he's a late round 1 prospect), but he's not on the same level as Lawrence or Fields. 

Yeah but that’s 1 throw and Fields almost never throws to a player that covered down the field. 

[maury77]

Just now, kdels62 said:

Yeah but that’s 1 throw and Fields almost never throws to a player that covered down the field. 

That's not the point. The point is that someone with an elite arm doesn't underthrow that pass. I don't think Fields (or Lawrence) has an elite arm either. 

[kdels62]

4 minutes ago, maury77 said:

That's not the point. The point is that someone with an elite arm doesn't underthrow that pass. I don't think Fields (or Lawrence) has an elite arm either. 

I think Wilson is inconsistent putting balls over his receiver. I think a part of that is him giving his receiver a chance rather than pinpointing over the shoulder catches. He’s gotta get over that or it’ll cost him. Wilson’s release makes his arm look stronger than it is.

[win4ever]

I really wish I could post about Wilson, but between job and family, really struggling to find time to write. I'm hoping to get some done tomorrow. I have one at 2300 words, and I think by the end I'm looking at close to 20000 words. But just need to type it up.




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[maury77]

22 minutes ago, win4ever said:

I really wish I could post about Wilson, but between job and family, really struggling to find time to write. I'm hoping to get some done tomorrow. I have one at 2300 words, and I think by the end I'm looking at close to 20000 words. But just need to type it up.




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Delegate that sh!t dude! 

https://www.upwork.com/

[win4ever]

Delegate that sh!t dude! 
https://www.upwork.com/

I wish, but I need to convey the pain of how he reminds me of Fitzpatrick and Geno lol.

The guy I got the film from said he's trying to get some 2019 ones and Coastal Carolina. If the 2019 ones come after this, might do an update.

God damn real estate, no houses on the market in Nashville, feel like I'm doing overtime and still not getting anywhere with buyers. Need some millionaire Jets fans to move down here, lol.

[maury77]

I wish, but I need to convey the pain of how he reminds me of Fitzpatrick and Geno lol.

The guy I got the film from said he's trying to get some 2019 ones and Coastal Carolina. If the 2019 ones come after this, might do an update.

God damn real estate, no houses on the market in Nashville, feel like I'm doing overtime and still not getting anywhere with buyers. Need some millionaire Jets fans to move down here, lol.

Are you a realtor? What types of properties?


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[win4ever]

Are you a realtor? What types of properties?


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Yup, residential.

Technically, I did accounting but with a kid, we couldn't both do 9-5 jobs and he needed a bunch of therapies. So I do real estate now because it allows me to take him to speech therapy/OT on the weekdays. So for two weekdays, I'm like a stay at home dad.

But market is so screwed that I have 2 guys on auto notify for homes that fit their criteria (not unreasonable demands) and there are literally 0 homes that fit. The auto notify has 0. I thought I screwed it up, so I did a manual search and nope.

I need to network more but I don't have that used car salesman pitch. Did pre-med and accounting, like two of the most introverted courses to do in college, lol. But now I like the job better than accounting, just need to learn how to market.

[JohnnyLV]

1 hour ago, maury77 said:

Literally look at the 1st pass on the video. It's a deep shot down the right sideline and the ball is underthrown and the ball placement is bad (should have been placed over the right shoulder so the CB would have no shot at it). Just because he doesn't have an elite arm doesn't mean he has a bad arm, it isn't a black and white issue. I could give 2 sh!ts about Simm's opinion, I'm not going to doubt what my eyes see. Simms also had Jaycee Horn outside of his top 5 CBs and Dyami Brown ahead of Jaylen Waddle. Same goes for Cosell. I've watched 7 games on Wilson already. Again, he's a good prospect (I think he's a late round 1 prospect), but he's not on the same level as Lawrence or Fields. 

OK so your negative is his first pass of the season. Well we can disagree. Personally I think Fields will have some success as a running QB but do not think he will be very good at all. VERY distant to Wilson. He is super slow at processing and will not translate well to the NFL

[Philc1]

23 hours ago, maury77 said:

I haven’t done an extensive look at next years guys, but I’ve seen a bit of Howell as a result of watching the NCU guys in this year’s draft and there is no way in hell that Howell is a better prospect than Fields


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[Philc1]

12 hours ago, Averagejetsfan1421 said:

I think we have to pass on selecting a quarterback in early rounds, 2022 draft class is stacked with quarterbacks from what I've seen,  we need playmakers OL,WR,CB

It’s such a better qb class than this year

[maury77]

9 hours ago, johnnysd said:

OK so your negative is his first pass of the season. Well we can disagree. Personally I think Fields will have some success as a running QB but do not think he will be very good at all. VERY distant to Wilson. He is super slow at processing and will not translate well to the NFL

I (and others) have discussed this point before, but I'll revisit it again since you are new to the thread. 

I understand why some people think Fields is slow at processing, but that is due to the Ohio State offense. 

Ohio State (and Adam Gase!) love to run option routes with their receivers. 

"Option Route

An option route is a pass pattern, commonly run from the slot in the Erhardt-Perkins scheme. Rather than a predetermined route, the receiver instead must read the defensive coverage and make a post-snap decision. The receiver adjusts the direction he will cut at the top of his stem based on the leverage of the nearest pass defender and the coverage scheme employed."

http://insidethepylon.com/football-101/glossary-football-101/2015/11/03/itp-glossary-option-route/#:~:text=An option route is a,make a post-snap decision.

The Ohio State coaches have even been explaining that to NFL teams asking about Fields

 

"Ohio State QB Justin Fields is one of the top prospects in the 2021 NFL Draft, but he’s hardly perfect. However, the Buckeyes are doing what they can to assuage the fears of some NFL teams about his weaknesses.

During a recent edition of the Move The Sticks podcast, NFL analyst Bucky Brooks said that “Ohio State people” are explaining to NFL teams why Fields has a penchant for holding onto the ball too long. He explained that the Buckeyes run an option-based offense with the wideouts running option routes.

“There have been some Ohio State people that have come back and said that their offense is more about option-based offense when it comes to wide receivers running option routes,” Brooks said, via 247Sports. “And that is why he has been forced to hold onto it. I think that is worthy of investigation. But there is something about him holding onto the rock because you know, in the NFL, the ball has to come out fast. You have to get it out quick. You want to play with touch, timing and anticipation.”

https://thespun.com/big-ten/ohio-state-buckeyes/justin-fields-nfl-draft-ohio-state-concerns

Here is Nate Tice breaking down film on the subject:

 

Finally, here is some tape of Fields at Georgia (a different offense) as a true freshman. He goes through his reads faster. 

In summary, what you see and consider slow processing is a result of the offense, not the player. 

[JohnnyLV]

17 minutes ago, maury77 said:

I (and others) have discussed this point before, but I'll revisit it again since you are new to the thread. 

I understand why some people think Fields is slow at processing, but that is due to the Ohio State offense. 

Ohio State (and Adam Gase!) love to run option routes with their receivers. 

"Option Route

An option route is a pass pattern, commonly run from the slot in the Erhardt-Perkins scheme. Rather than a predetermined route, the receiver instead must read the defensive coverage and make a post-snap decision. The receiver adjusts the direction he will cut at the top of his stem based on the leverage of the nearest pass defender and the coverage scheme employed."

http://insidethepylon.com/football-101/glossary-football-101/2015/11/03/itp-glossary-option-route/#:~:text=An option route is a,make a post-snap decision.

The Ohio State coaches have even been explaining that to NFL teams asking about Fields

 

"Ohio State QB Justin Fields is one of the top prospects in the 2021 NFL Draft, but he’s hardly perfect. However, the Buckeyes are doing what they can to assuage the fears of some NFL teams about his weaknesses.

During a recent edition of the Move The Sticks podcast, NFL analyst Bucky Brooks said that “Ohio State people” are explaining to NFL teams why Fields has a penchant for holding onto the ball too long. He explained that the Buckeyes run an option-based offense with the wideouts running option routes.

“There have been some Ohio State people that have come back and said that their offense is more about option-based offense when it comes to wide receivers running option routes,” Brooks said, via 247Sports. “And that is why he has been forced to hold onto it. I think that is worthy of investigation. But there is something about him holding onto the rock because you know, in the NFL, the ball has to come out fast. You have to get it out quick. You want to play with touch, timing and anticipation.”

https://thespun.com/big-ten/ohio-state-buckeyes/justin-fields-nfl-draft-ohio-state-concerns

Here is Nate Tice breaking down film on the subject:

 

Finally, here is some tape of Fields at Georgia (a different offense) as a true freshman. He goes through his reads faster. 

In summary, what you see and consider slow processing is a result of the offense, not the player. 

OK, so say that I accept your take at face value. Would you still agree that Wilson is much faster at reads and anticipation?

[Philc1]

1 hour ago, maury77 said:

I (and others) have discussed this point before, but I'll revisit it again since you are new to the thread. 

I understand why some people think Fields is slow at processing, but that is due to the Ohio State offense. 

Ohio State (and Adam Gase!) love to run option routes with their receivers. 

"Option Route

An option route is a pass pattern, commonly run from the slot in the Erhardt-Perkins scheme. Rather than a predetermined route, the receiver instead must read the defensive coverage and make a post-snap decision. The receiver adjusts the direction he will cut at the top of his stem based on the leverage of the nearest pass defender and the coverage scheme employed."

http://insidethepylon.com/football-101/glossary-football-101/2015/11/03/itp-glossary-option-route/#:~:text=An option route is a,make a post-snap decision.

The Ohio State coaches have even been explaining that to NFL teams asking about Fields

 

"Ohio State QB Justin Fields is one of the top prospects in the 2021 NFL Draft, but he’s hardly perfect. However, the Buckeyes are doing what they can to assuage the fears of some NFL teams about his weaknesses.

During a recent edition of the Move The Sticks podcast, NFL analyst Bucky Brooks said that “Ohio State people” are explaining to NFL teams why Fields has a penchant for holding onto the ball too long. He explained that the Buckeyes run an option-based offense with the wideouts running option routes.

“There have been some Ohio State people that have come back and said that their offense is more about option-based offense when it comes to wide receivers running option routes,” Brooks said, via 247Sports. “And that is why he has been forced to hold onto it. I think that is worthy of investigation. But there is something about him holding onto the rock because you know, in the NFL, the ball has to come out fast. You have to get it out quick. You want to play with touch, timing and anticipation.”

https://thespun.com/big-ten/ohio-state-buckeyes/justin-fields-nfl-draft-ohio-state-concerns

Here is Nate Tice breaking down film on the subject:

 

Finally, here is some tape of Fields at Georgia (a different offense) as a true freshman. He goes through his reads faster. 

In summary, what you see and consider slow processing is a result of the offense, not the player. 

One read guys are gonna one read guy - don’t be shocked if Fields is there at 23

[maury77]

7 hours ago, johnnysd said:

OK, so say that I accept your take at face value. Would you still agree that Wilson is much faster at reads and anticipation?

I would agree that Wilson gets the ball out faster than Fields and that Wilson makes more anticipatory throws. Would you also agree that Fields is significantly more athletic, bigger, player against better CBs and was a more consistent performer over 3 years than Wilson?

[maury77]

5 hours ago, Philc1 said:

One read guys are gonna one read guy - don’t be shocked if Fields is there at 23

Phil ...... I know you are trying to get me worked up .... but I just had a Xanax and it isn't working