Mark Sanchez Can Sing!

[SAR I]

1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

Yeah, when your OL is getting destroyed by a DT, you run into his ass. We see it happen all the time.

Mark started his slide before Wilfork de-cleated Moore and tossed him like a rag doll.

It's all on tape.  Not hard to see.  You just need to look at it from a different angle.  Collingsworth called it as it happened.  "Vince Wilfork just destroyed Brandon Moore".  

SAR I

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

So because Sanchez scored a few points here and there he gets credit?  Any starting QB can score in today's NFL.  He scored less than all of them.  He was the worst starting QB in the league by far, and a quarter of the league's backups were better, too.

Credit no, but he was exactly who he was and Rex failed to scheme around Sanchez doing exactly as he could be expected to do.

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

A QB who supposedly steps up his game in the playoffs needs to step up against a top-flight defense, too.  That's what starting playoff QB's have to do from time to time.  He not only didn't do it, he wasn't even really competitive in that game until the Steelers started playing conservative on D.

Rex got exactly what should’ve been expected out of Sanchez against the top ranked defense. He failed to account and win the game.

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, predator_05 said:

Didn't we just discuss this whole nature vs nurture thing in the Josh Allen thread? You've made a complete 180. 

 

Herbert has a great situation; he's got good receivers and a decent offensive line. 

Burrow has excellent receivers in Boyd, Higgins and a stud in Mixon at RB.

Kyler got Hopkins in the off-season, and he has the full support of Kingsbury, who knew him since high school. 

 

Their teams aren't total dumpster fires like the Jets. Bengals are closest to the Jets, but at least they have some elite talent in critical positions. The Jets are crap across the board. No QB will ever succeed in such a dysfunctional environment. 

 

Yes, Josh Allen is an anomaly and exception.  In 99.999999 % of other cases, bad QB's tend to stay bad, and at least a big chunk of the blame falls on the QB, not his circumstances.

Kyler got Hopkins, yes.  But in his rookie year he was very good without him.  The Cardinals were awful the year before Murray arrived and not good at all his first year.  But HE was still performing well, individually.

Your idea of "success" is what's flawed here.  A QB can absolutely be good with a bad team.  SUCCESS by your definition (wins and losses) is of course a team concept, with the QB playing a big role in that.  Good QB's can still perform well and lose a lot of games. 

I never expected Darnold to win a ton of games with the roster he has.  But I do expect him to compete and look the part of a franchise QB 30 starts in.  He barely looks better than 35-year old Flacco (who doesn't even want to be out there) in the exact same circumstances.  That's telling.

[Bleedin Green]

3 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

He was good against the Bengals too in the WC in 2009.

It gets spread because they're astonishing stats relative to his regular season performances. You generally get worse against the better opposition where Sanchez didn't. He either maintained his level or outplayed it. He didn't completely kill us in the playoffs like he did regularly during the season. 

He really didn't do much of anything against the Bengals.  He mostly stood around watching the D and handing the ball off.  I won't hold that against him at all, because that was clearly the game plan, but he threw a grand total of 15 passes, hardly deserving of some great praise.  He was horrific the following week vs SD, threw one nice go-route against Indy and did nothing else the entire game, sucked the following year vs Indy, and was personally responsible for 7 of Pitt's points in a 5-point loss.

In fairness, I wouldn't argue against the idea that he "maintained his level" of play, but that's not a praise of his postseason performance as much as an indictment of his overall career ineptitude.

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Mark started his slide before Wilfork de-cleated Moore and tossed him like a rag doll.

It's all on tape.  Not hard to see.  You just need to look at it from a different angle.  Collingsworth called it as it happened.  "Vince Wilfork just destroyed Brandon Moore".  

SAR I

Sanchez definitely sucked but when you have a defensive genius as HC and spend nearly every first round pick for a decade on D, hey guess what the expectations for the defense are gonna be a helluva lot higher than for the offense. Especially when you’re on the road against the top ranked defense and the #13 ranked offense.

[More Cowbell]

2 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Mark started his slide before Wilfork de-cleated Moore and tossed him like a rag doll.

It's all on tape.  Not hard to see.  You just need to look at it from a different angle.  Collingsworth called it as it happened.  "Vince Wilfork just destroyed Brandon Moore".  

SAR I

I think you need your eyes checked. Where was Sanchez running to? He ran directly into the guys backside.

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

Rex got exactly what should’ve been expected out of Sanchez against the top ranked defense. He failed to account and win the game.

Rex sucks.  But no coach is winning a playoff game where his offense puts up -7 points in the first half.  Ever. 

26 total yard of offense.  26!   

[jgb]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Rex sucks.  But no coach is winning a playoff game where his offense puts up -7 points in the first half.  Ever. 

26 total yard of offense.  26!   

If defense played to their rank against the Steelers #13 ranked offense, we win that game.

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, jgb said:

If defense played to their rank against the Steelers #13 ranked offense, we win that game.

Nah.  Not a chance.  The only reason the Jet offense did anything at all was when the Steelers got their lead and played it conservative on D.  If the defense had been near perfect, the defense would have kept up its intensity and we still lose that game something like 7-0 or 10-3. 

Sanchez lost something like 9 games in his Jets career when the defense allowed 10 points or less, so that wouldn't have been out of the ordinary, either.

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Nah.  Not a chance.  The only reason the Jet offense did anything at all was when the Steelers got their lead and played it conservative on D.  If the defense had been near perfect we still lose that game something like 7-0 or 10-3. 

Sanchez lost something like 9 games in his Jets career when the defense allowed less than 10 points, so that wouldn't have been out of the ordinary, either.

This is like saying if someone breaks into your house and both you and your 5 year old daughter fail to stop them, that she's more to blame for being weaker.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

This is like saying if someone breaks into your house and both you and your 5 year old daughter fail to stop them, that you're equally to blame.

This is like saying if your 5 year old daughter is the QB in an analogy, then you might as well put the backup QB in and see if he can do better.

A better analogy would be like blaming the father (CEO) for putting a 5-year old in a management position at a company in the first place.  Absolutely the Dad should be blamed for that and anything that comes from it.

[SAR I]

Just now, Bleedin Green said:

In fairness, I wouldn't argue against the idea that he "maintained his level" of play, but that's not a praise of his postseason performance as much as an indictment of his overall career ineptitude.

But that's the big picture, don't you see?

The Ryan Jets were built to win with the 85 Bears defense and a Ground & Pound offense.  That was the strategy.  That was the gameplan.  Mark was an inexpensive and complimentary piece to that throwback strategy.

They weren't built to win Air Coryell style.  But that's what wound up happening.  When Ryan's D weakened in the 4th quarter over and over again, or late in the season over and over again, and when the RB's couldn't run against the elite D's over and over again, we had no choice but to ask Mark Sanchez to win games by himself.  And that's not who we were.  He wasn't the next Peyton Manning.  Our WR's were a revolving door of old leftovers on their last legs.  

Mark sucked in your eyes because he was asked to throw 40 times a game when Rex Ryan didn't produce the 85 Bears defense or a Ground & Pound offense.  Had Rex gotten his D to dominate and his RB's to dominate in Championship Games as he promised and spent every last dime to do, we go to consecutive Super Bowls.  The failure of those teams was on Ryan's failure to execute his strategy and, in turn, rely too much on a kid quarterback who no one in the NFL ever thought could handle that role.  

SAR I

[SAR I]

8 minutes ago, jgb said:

Sanchez definitely sucked but when you have a defensive genius as HC and spend nearly every first round pick for a decade on D, hey guess what the expectations for the defense are gonna be a helluva lot higher than for the offense. Especially when you’re on the road against the top ranked defense and the #13 ranked offense.

Exactly.  See the post I just made (above).

SAR I

[jgb]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

This is like saying if your 5 year old daughter is the QB in an analogy, then you might as well put the backup QB in and see if he can do better.

A better analogy would be like blaming the father for putting a 5-year old in a management position.

Yeah I don't think so. The team's engine was the defense at the critical moment they laid an egg against a middling offense. 

[jgb]

Just now, SAR I said:

Exactly.  See the post I just made (above).

SAR I

I feel dirty agreeing with you. I change my position!  

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

Yeah I don't think so. The team's engine was the defense at the critical moment they laid an egg against a middling offense. 

The engine was the defense and running game, mostly because of their own abilities but also because the QB couldn't do sh*t.  So the blame falls on the QB who can't do sh*t.  Not on everyone else for being like "Oh man, I didn't know our QB sucked THAT hard!" 

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The engine was the defense and running game, mostly because of their own abilities but also because the QB couldn't do sh*t.  So the blame falls on the QB who can't do sh*t.  Not on everyone else for being like "Oh man, I didn't know our QB sucked THAT hard!" 

I love debating with you, it's always an invigorating intellectual exercise even when poolside on vacation. Gotta go to dinner now but I'm sure after a bottle of wine I'll come up with a killer rebuttal that will turn you into a quivering goo! 

[predator_05]

7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Yes, Josh Allen is an anomaly and exception.  In 99.999999 % of other cases, bad QB's tend to stay bad, and at least a big chunk of the blame falls on the QB, not his circumstances.

Kyler got Hopkins, yes.  But in his rookie year he was very good without him.  The Cardinals were awful the year before Murray arrived and not good at all his first year.  But HE was still performing well, individually.

Your idea of "success" is what's flawed here.  A QB can absolutely be good with a bad team.  SUCCESS by your definition (wins and losses) is of course a team concept, with the QB playing a big role in that.  Good QB's can still perform well and lose a lot of games. 

I never expected Darnold to win a ton of games with the roster he has.  But I do expect him to compete and look the part of a franchise QB 30 starts in.  He barely looks better than 35-year old Flacco (who doesn't even want to be out there) in the exact same circumstances.  That's telling.

Success is relative. Back to back AFC championships wouldn't be impressive at New england, pittsburgh, San fran...they've had considerably more success. But for the Jets, the bar is lower. This run, is the best run in Jets history. The QB on that team, deserves some credit. We'll never see a run like that again (i'm cynical). 

 

If you've somehow changed your mind to consider Allen or lamar jackson as exceptions, then we'll agree to disagree.

Organizations have to get the most out of their talent. As you said, this is a TEAM sport. The Jets have consistently failed to get the most out of their talent, even when they got it 'right'.

I'll repeat: barring some widespread changes, they'll ruin Trevor lawrence as well. We'll be having this exact same discussion - of apportioning blame - 3 years from now.  

[Bleedin Green]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

If defense played to their rank against the Steelers #13 ranked offense, we win that game.

The defense allowed 17 points, scored 2, and generated 3 turnovers.

The offense scored 17 points, handed 7 to the opposition, and had 2 turnovers.

There's really no debate at all here at which unit played substantially better than the other that day.

You're also the one who started the argument in this thread about Sanchez's mythical postseason greatnesss, so which is it?  Is he deserving of some great praise and individual credit for the team's overall postseason success, in which case he's to also blame for his complete incompetence in that game (and multiple others)?  Or was he the team's greatness weakness the entire time, and they had to win in spite of him?  It can't be both.

[SAR I]

14 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

I think you need your eyes checked. Where was Sanchez running to? He ran directly into the guys backside.

Look at #77.  Then look at #65.  Watch the GIF a few times looking at just those two Jets.  #77 in particular.

It was a busted play.  In an instant, Sanchez realized he needed to get back to the line of scrimmage to avoid taking a big loss.  Howard pushed his assignment off the line nicely, Mark made the read, bolted for that hole, and WHAM, Moore got thrown into his path.

Look at how far Moore is off his position.  When he first makes contact with Sanchez, his body past the spot where Howard lined up.

SAR I

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, predator_05 said:

Success is relative. Back to back AFC championships wouldn't be impressive at New england, pittsburgh, San fran...they've had considerably more success. But for the Jets, the bar is lower. This run, is the best run in Jets history. The QB on that team, deserves some credit. We'll never see a run like that again (i'm cynical). 

 

If you've somehow changed your mind to consider Allen or lamar jackson as exceptions, then we'll agree to disagree.

Organizations have to get the most out of their talent. As you said, this is a TEAM sport. The Jets have consistently failed to get the most out of their talent, even when they got it 'right'.

I'll repeat: barring some widespread changes, they'll ruin Trevor lawrence as well. We'll be having this exact same discussion - of apportioning blame - 3 years from now.  

 

I don't lump Allen in with Jackson.  For all of Allen's college seasons and his first 2 NFL seasons, he was an inaccurate, turnover-prone QB.  Those are 2 qualities that have NEVER gone away for any QB in NFL history.  Literally zero.  He did have a pretty rough game against Tennessee last week so I'll be very interested to see how his final 11 games of the season go.

Jackson was an underrated passer entering the pro game, and demonstrated fine abilities in that department as a pro.  He of course walked into a great situation, and Harbaugh built the offense around his unique abilities.  But he's also demonstrated the ability to an above average/good QB (not just a runner).  Those aren't mutually exclusive points.  

We'll see what happens with our future QB.  But I'm quite confident Darnold has a limited ceiling anywhere he goes, and when that happens, it will no longer be the Jets' fault.  It will be Sam's and Sam's alone, just  like it was with Sanchez and Geno Smith.  

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Bleedin Green said:

The defense allowed 17 points, scored 2, and generated 3 turnovers.

The offense scored 17 points, handed 7 to the opposition, and had 2 turnovers.

There's really no debate at all here at which unit played substantially better than the other that day.

You're also the one who started the argument in this thread about Sanchez's mythical postseason greatnesss, so which is it?  Is he deserving of some great praise and individual credit for the team's overall postseason success, in which case he's to also blame for his complete incompetence in that game (and multiple others)?  Or was he the team's greatness weakness the entire time, and they had to win in spite of him?  It can't be both.

Results versus expected outcome. Rex should've foreseen the offensive performance and game planned around it. Defensive genius with almost all draft capital invested in the defense. It's like saying that a pilot who fails to drop his bombs at the right coordinates should've been a better tank driver.

[bitonti]

2 hours ago, SAR I said:

That was not Mark Sanchez' fault.  Brandon Moore got destroyed by Vince Wilfork on that play so badly it may be the biggest single lineplay blow up in league history.

SAR I

yeah yeah 

"it's not his fault" should be the USC QB motto 

 

 

[predator_05]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

 

Jackson was an underrated passer entering the pro game, and demonstrated fine abilities in that department as a pro.  He of course walked into a great situation, and Harbaugh built the offense around his unique abilities.  

 

This what a Jets QB never gets. Great situation + accommodative, intelligent coach. It's a huge leg-up. 

[Bleedin Green]

6 minutes ago, SAR I said:

But that's the big picture, don't you see?

The Ryan Jets were built to win with the 85 Bears defense and a Ground & Pound offense.  That was the strategy.  That was the gameplan.  Mark was an inexpensive and complimentary piece to that throwback strategy.

They weren't built to win Air Coryell style.  But that's what wound up happening.  When Ryan's D weakened in the 4th quarter over and over again, or late in the season over and over again, and when the RB's couldn't run against the elite D's over and over again, we had no choice but to ask Mark Sanchez to win games by himself.  And that's not who we were.  He wasn't the next Peyton Manning.  Our WR's were a revolving door of old leftovers on their last legs.  

Mark sucked in your eyes because he was asked to throw 40 times a game when Rex Ryan didn't produce the 85 Bears defense or a Ground & Pound offense.  Had Rex gotten his D to dominate and his RB's to dominate in Championship Games as he promised and spent every last dime to do, we go to consecutive Super Bowls.  The failure of those teams was on Ryan's failure to execute his strategy and, in turn, rely too much on a kid quarterback who no one in the NFL ever thought could handle that role.  

SAR I

Sanchez sucked because he was not good at playing the position of QB in the NFL, which is kind of what he was paid to do.

Sanchez does not deserve credit because they were, at times, able to win despite him being a complete albatross to the team.  He could have been replaced by any other backup-level talent to the same result, and his entire career proved exactly as much, when giving no greater return to the team than the likes of Kellen Clemens and Greg McElroy... that he was lucky enough to be the particular crappy QB they rolled with is in no way a positive for him.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

Rex should've foreseen the offensive performance and game planned around it. 

There's no gameplan for offensive ineptitude at that level.  None.  Teams can't play perfect defense against today's offenses, especially not in the postseason and when facing a HOF QB.

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, predator_05 said:

This what a Jets QB never gets. It's a huge leg-up. 

They do when they leave, at least some of the time, and still suck.

[predator_05]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

They do when they leave, at least some of the time, and still suck.

Don't blame Lawrence for 'sucking' when he has a sh*tty coach and crappy players around him.

 

He's a better talent than Darnold and Sanchez, right?

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

There's no gameplan for offensive ineptitude at that level.  None.  Teams can't play perfect defense against today's offenses, especially not in the postseason and when facing a HOF QB.

If the Jets defense didn't collapse at the critical moment, you might've gotten the chance to see Sanchez fail and blame him:

The Jets defense couldn't stop Mendenhall or Roethlisberger in the first half, and couldn't make an important stop against the Steelers offense as the clock was winding down.  A stop would've given the Jets offense a chance to win the game.  A chance to make history.

But, it didn't happen that way. Rex the defensive genius blustered but couldn't beat the 13th ranked offense. Failure.

[Irish Jet]

12 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

He really didn't do much of anything against the Bengals.  He mostly stood around watching the D and handing the ball off.  I won't hold that against him at all, because that was clearly the game plan, but he threw a grand total of 15 passes, hardly deserving of some great praise.  He was horrific the following week vs SD, threw one nice go-route against Indy and did nothing else the entire game, sucked the following year vs Indy, and was personally responsible for 7 of Pitt's points in a 5-point loss.

In fairness, I wouldn't argue against the idea that he "maintained his level" of play, but that's not a praise of his postseason performance as much as an indictment of his overall career ineptitude.

This is extremely harsh - I urge you to go back and watch that game as he was pretty much perfect. The Bengals were a top 5 defence. He went 12/15 and two of the incompletions went threw the WR's hands. One to Keller, the other a perfect deep throw to Edwards for one of his classic Edwards drops. Yes he got some help but you could hardly execute a game plan better than he did. 

I would say he only had one bad game in the playoffs and that was SD and even then he wasn't terrible as he recovered from a brutal start and made some plays. His performances were certainly better than what were expected, especially against some good defences. 

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, predator_05 said:

Don't blame Lawrence for 'sucking' when he has a sh*tty coach and crappy players around him.

 

He's a better talent than Darnold and Sanchez, right?

 

Let's all hope Lawrence gets the kind of circumstances Sanchez got when he started out!

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

If the Jets defense didn't collapse at the critical moment, you might've gotten the chance to see Sanchez fail and blame him:

The Jets defense couldn't stop Mendenhall or Roethlisberger in the first half, and couldn't make an important stop against the Steelers offense as the clock was winding down.  A stop would've given the Jets offense a chance to win the game.  A chance to make history.

But, it didn't happen that way. Rex the defensive genius blustered but couldn't beat the 13th ranked offense. Failure.

 

I never said the defense played well.  Only that they weren't the biggest problem that day.  They weren't.  

With that, I've said my piece.  You and SAR I cut the lights when you're done. 

[joewilly12]

24 minutes ago, jgb said:

Sanchez definitely sucked

Best QB we've seen around here in years. 

[Bleedin Green]

12 minutes ago, jgb said:

Results versus expected outcome. Rex should've foreseen the offensive performance and game planned around it. Defensive genius with almost all draft capital invested in the defense. It's like saying that a pilot who fails to drop his bombs at the right coordinates should've been a better tank driver.

So you believe the "expected outcome" is that it shoud've been seen as totally reasonable to have the defense hold the opponent to 9 or less points, in order to have the possibility to win?  And that it also should have been expected for the offense to do even worse than only scoring 10 more points for their own team than they handed to the opponents?

You would have to believe both of those in order to come to the conclusion you're trying to push here about how offensive/defensive expectations compare to the results.

[jgb]

If a "defensive genius" can't win with a performance like this from his crappy QB then the defense failed. I guess Rex needed Sanchez to play like prime Peyton Manning to win that game. Awesome gameplan!