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Trevor Lawrence Not the answer: MERGED

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1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 


He was paid to catch a football. Not make front office decisions. Being part of a SB winner doesn’t give him any added expertise in that department.

 

He's also a USC alum sticking up for his boy

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He played in the NFL on teams that won. That makes him more qualified than most.


It really doesn’t.

Michael Jordan was a horrible GM. Worse than most GM’s.

Former players tend to lack objectivity and in many cases are much worse at evaluating talent than the average scout or front office exec.
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Ftr mods who merged this - I’m not a fan of the way you’ve framed this. KJ said this, not me

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2 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

It’s hype season, that is why it is 24/7 TL #1 prospect. Wait until this full season is on tape and the true scouts (who don’t sell content for a living and do work for NFL teams) break it down and get access to him for pro days. That is where the rubber meets the road.

As to Peyton and Elway, c’mon man they were at Tennessee and Stanford playing with the type of players who weren’t good enough to even be on the radar for a program like Clemson has right now. The question is would Trevor “pop” like those guys if he was at a second tier program? IDK. Nobody does. Why? Well, because he chose Clemson. I’m sure that will be among the questions at his interview. 


So, until the season is in the books, all this stuff makes for great conversation but it’s meaningless because it’s all conjecture. That said, in many past years the October consensus #1 pick no longer holds that position in April. That’s why you have to let it play out.

His rating, the talk isnt hype, its real.  Hes been a superstar QB prospect from his HS years. Nothing should be expected to change between now and Jan.  The season doesnt have to go into the books, Trevor is a top of the heap prospect.  Whether he works out or not, who knows.  But he won as a freshman, lost in the Champ game in year 2 and we'll see this year.  

Darnold needs to carry the team, Ive been told great QBs lead players, make them better, should be able to turn our lousy WR into a passable unit.  But Elway never winning a bowl game is excusable?  Manning?  These truly were generational talents.  

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

His rating, the talk isnt hype, its real.  Hes been a superstar QB prospect from his HS years. Nothing should be expected to change between now and Jan.  The season doesnt have to go into the books, Trevor is a top of the heap prospect.  Whether he works out or not, who knows.  But he won as a freshman, lost in the Champ game in year 2 and we'll see this year.  

Darnold needs to carry the team, Ive been told great QBs lead players, make them better, should be able to turn our lousy WR into a passable unit.  But Elway never winning a bowl game is excusable?  Manning?  These truly were generational talents.  

 

 

This guy doesnt know what hes talking about at all... someone boot him

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16 minutes ago, FiremanEdIsMyDad said:

This guy doesnt know what hes talking about at all... someone boot him

@The Crusher May need a deeper look at the new trolls, just saying.

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7 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

If all that isn’t enough to upgrade the offense (and team in general) in a major way, then we definitely have the wrong GM and trading out of #1 isn’t going to fix it either. How many rookies & 2nd year players do we honestly think one team can put on the field at the same time? 

At some point more picks just gives more ability to overcome whiffs rather than adding even more starters. They’re not going to have >50% of their 2022 starters coming from the 2021-2022 drafts. It may be a nice dream of talent on paper, but I’m sure you certainly realize it’s also wholly unrealistic. 

26 on offense and 26 on defense

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13 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Key's got a ring though.

Any time our QB has had a big name receiver, they have always been in the hunt. For some reason though, this team hardly ever gets big name receivers.

 

Considering it’s a critical part of the offense since the days of Lombardi, I’m not entirely sure why this team insists on not getting one.
 

It’s like you buy a really nice sports car (QB) and you fill the gas tank with E85 blend, and then you wonder why it’s not making the 0-60 3.5 second time that it did on the magazine you read about. 

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9 hours ago, derp said:

How’d this just sneak in here and get little attention?

 

Thats how i roll, i just slide in undetected and drop bombs

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11 hours ago, JetBlue said:

Give it rest already. We know you prefer Fields.  His "flaws" are fixable and are not nearly at the level you seem to be making them out to be. 

We could go back and look at posts on Mahomes and folks talking about his "flaws" that he would need to correct as well. 

TL himself has talked about many of these things so he is well aware (more so than you I would guess) of what he needs to work on.  He is not some finished product that can not improve.  With his desire, talent and work ethic there is no doubt he will continue to improve.  In fact, having that poor game against LSU was probably the best thing to happen to him.   As far as the Jet situation, you don't know how our situation will look but the time the draft rolls around.  We have an entire second half of the season to play and I fully expect guys like Mims, Becton, Davis, Huff, Clark, perhaps Hall, to step up and give glimpse of what the future could be.  Depending on who we hire as a coach and what players are signed in FA, this team could have an entirely different feel by Draft day.    I don't know what it is about Jet fans... then again, actually I do.   

 

10 hours ago, JetBlue said:

No YOU give it a rest!! (Okay your turn)

Lol - For real though, why do I need to give anything a rest?  We're here on a message board, talking Football, specifically the future of the franchise and I need to give it a rest that I dont think Trevor is perfect?  Sorry bud, aint going to happen.  If I joined the ridiculous over hype Trevor crowd, what fun would it be?  The circle jerk is ridiculous at this point.  You should be thanking me for giving a contrainain perspective, not scolding me for it.  Especially considering I've actually taken the time to watch both players, every single damn snap they've ever taken and Im not just throwing out some garbage hot takes to be different and even more so because I kind of have a track record of nailing this stuff but whatevs, the experts.  lol

Right now, yes, I think Fields is better passer.  I think he need to do a better job handling pressure.  He tends to leave the pocket to early.  That said, I think he brings a dynamic that Trevor doesnt.  I'm also basing the opinion off 1 year of play and I've said numerous times that my opinion is subject to change based on how this season goes.  I'm just simply looking at the 2 prospects and giving my take.  Sorry if it's inconvenient to the Trevor is God Club.  He's not, he has flaws and I'm not convinced ball placement and accuracy are easily fixable, like you suggest.   The league hasnt been kind to guys who struggle in that dept.

And all that said, Ive steady maintained, Im not sure how RIGHT NOW, you could pass on him assuming the Jets have #1 overall.  Something drastic would have to change or Fields would have to come out and have Joe Burrow like year leap frogging Lawrence, which I dont think will happen but there are more than 1 reason for that...

 

 

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5 hours ago, Wonderboy said:

26 on offense and 26 on defense

Yes I realize. And if you put a team that’s 50% rookies & 1st year players on the field together and that won’t improve.

I’m the last person who thinks rebuilding should chiefly come through free agency, but at some point there’s diminishing return starting too many children. There has to be balance. and 50-50 veterans & non-veterans only sounds like balance. 

Also when teams make a big leap forward - e.g. from a bottom 5 defense to a top 10 defense - it doesn’t typically require acquiring 8+ new players.

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5 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

They don’t need to trade out of #1 to accomplish that:

  1. We already have 6 top 40 picks in the upcoming 2 drafts.
  2. That's before trading Darnold and/or QWilliams. 
  3. Then on top of that, they also already have 3 more day 2 picks in round 2 over the upcoming 2 drafts (the first of them being one slot away from nominally being another 2nd rounder).
  4. And though they are harder to hit on, they do still have their day 3 picks as well. 
  5. Take away one pick to use on Darnold’s replacement, and that’s still ~10 good to great prospects to draft surround the QB. Plus 2 more FA periods where the Jets will have room to sign any who are willing to end their careers here for money lol.

That ought to be enough. With Becton, and hopefully Mims able to be on the field, maybe 1 other starter from the ‘20 draft whose career ceiling isn’t these first 6 weeks, and the top 6-8 starters we have aside from them - plus add 2 more in each of the upcoming 2 FA periods - yeah, that really ought to be enough.

If all that isn’t enough to upgrade the offense (and team in general) in a major way, then we definitely have the wrong GM and trading out of #1 isn’t going to fix it either. How many rookies & 2nd year players do we honestly think one team can put on the field at the same time? 

At some point more picks just gives more ability to overcome whiffs rather than adding even more starters. They’re not going to have >50% of their 2022 starters coming from the 2021-2022 drafts. It may be a nice dream of talent on paper, but I’m sure you certainly realize it’s also wholly unrealistic. 

This is where I fall as well.  Yea a "draft pick haul" sounds good but we have $80 million in cap space and 2 firsts in back to back years.  We have the picks to build around around a QB even if we dont trade down.  

I also understand draft hype and how entertaining it can be to discuss these college players, but this will be one of the more interesting FA years with a flat cap and players like Juju or Allen Robinson will be readily available to fill some of our holes on offense.  I do think JD needs to be more aggressive in finding one elite defender in FA.  The steelers have both Juju and Bud Dupree as FAs and are projected to be over the cap so thats one place we can look.

I do not think we need to spend a high pick  on the OL.  Becton looks fantastic and Fant has been good and actually has a reasonable contract so along with Edoga we have a good OT situation.  McGovern has been playing better and we can find a guard in the 3rd round and/or have Clark hopefully step in.

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3 hours ago, Lizard King said:

Any time our QB has had a big name receiver, they have always been in the hunt. For some reason though, this team hardly ever gets big name receivers.

 

Considering it’s a critical part of the offense since the days of Lombardi, I’m not entirely sure why this team insists on not getting one.
 

It’s like you buy a really nice sports car (QB) and you fill the gas tank with E85 blend, and then you wonder why it’s not making the 0-60 3.5 second time that it did on the magazine you read about. 

Here comes the posts about how nearly all the elite WRs in the game today haven't won a ring... But then at the same time, our QB can't be expected to even look competent without one!

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47 minutes ago, jgb said:

Here comes the posts about how nearly all the elite WRs in the game today haven't won a ring... But then at the same time, our QB can't be expected to even look competent without one!

It’s not a situation that works individually- someone good has to throw it and someone good has to catch it. We will never know the quality of either unless they exist together in the same offense. 

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27 minutes ago, Lizard King said:

It’s not a situation that works individually- someone good has to throw it and someone good has to catch it. We will never know the quality of either unless they exist together in the same offense. 

It's true that great WR's can make sh*tty QB's look a little less sh*tty.  But they aren't an absolute necessity if your QB is worth his salt.  

The Steelers rotate out WR's every single season, it seems, and don't seem to have a problem.  You can barely name Tom Brady's top WR's outside of Moss over the last 2 decades.  The Ravens rearely invest in WR's and have two rings in the past 2 decades.  One of the biggest catches in Super Bowl history was made by a guy named David Tyree.  The Packers have notoriously neglected the WR position (and their 2 best in recent years - Davante Adams and Jordy Nelson, were picks 53 and 36 overall, respectively) with Rodgers but keep on chugging.  

Unless we're talking about Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, Calvin Johnson, and maybe a couple other guys, really good WR's rarely can make a bad QB look competent.  Far more often than not its the other way around:  QB's make the WR, not the other way around.

Don't get me wrong:  I am absolutely not against investing in WR's where it is prudent to do so.  It is still a premium position.  I like the Steelers' approach:  Draft a WR in the rd 2/3 area every year and then let them walk at the end of their rookie deals.  They're great to have when they're cheap.  But it's not always necessary to hand them Amari Cooper money.  WR is a volatile position due to the personalities of high-end types, and that has to be taken into account before paying them.

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19 hours ago, Embrace the Suck said:

Whether Sam or Trevor they'll need an oline, wrs, tes, rbs, and coaches. They don't need a BPA on the D side of the ball. They don't need a number 1 CB. Unless they are sure Trevor is some kind of transcendent QB they should cash in on the pick. If Trevor is the guy they better damn sure have learned how to support a young QB which means going all out in the draft and FA on the O side of the ball. You can't do just a little at a time and hope for the best they have to go all in on O. 

I've seen all the games.  With good coaching, the offensive line they have now could be better than "solid".  Joe Douglas did a good job adding players to the offensive line.  Gase is doing a bad job using them.  He is doing a horrible job with Darnold.  Sam can still be a special QB, but NEVER with Gase.  Even as much as I like Sam, I would move on from him and go with Trevor Lawrence without the slightest hesitation.  Sam *may* wind up being an excellent NFL QB that makes mind blowing plays on the move, but Trevor Lawrence is worth his weight in gold.  I saw Marino, Elway, Manning and Luck all play in college.  None of them were as impressive as Lawrence.  From what I have seen, he is the best QB prospect I have ever seen.  Those calling him over-rated or over-hyped don't have an eye for QB talent.

So... If the Jets tank and wind up with Trevor, the big question is this.

Does GASE stay with the Jets or not...

We should be all in... ALL OF US.  On Tank for Trevor.  

We should also be all in on all in on getting rid of GASE...

With Trevor Lawrence and a qualified HC and all the other draft picks the Jets have and their cap space.

I am SURE the Jets would be the terror of the AFC East for years to come.

Gase could wind up being the most important HC since Weeb.

He gets us to 0-16 and JD gets us Trevor and a new HC.

We are that close to being REAL HAPPY for a REAL LONG TIME.

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17 hours ago, Beerfish said:

He will be QBing for The citadel instead of QBing against the citadel.

More like Little Sisters of St. Mary's

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29 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It's true that great WR's can make sh*tty QB's look a little less sh*tty.  But they aren't an absolute necessity if your QB is worth his salt.  

The Steelers rotate out WR's every single season, it seems, and don't seem to have a problem.  You can barely name Tom Brady's top WR's outside of Moss over the last 2 decades.  The Ravens rearely invest in WR's and have two rings in the past 2 decades.  One of the biggest catches in Super Bowl history was made by a guy named David Tyree.  The Packers have notoriously neglected the WR position (and their 2 best in recent years - Davante Adams and Jordy Nelson, were picks 53 and 36 overall, respectively) with Rodgers but keep on chugging.  

Unless we're talking about Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, Calvin Johnson, and maybe a couple other guys, really good WR's rarely can make a bad QB look competent.  Far more often than not its the other way around:  QB's make the WR, not the other way around.

Don't get me wrong:  I am absolutely not against investing in WR's where it is prudent to do so.  It is still a premium position.  I like the Steelers' approach:  Draft a WR in the rd 2/3 area every year and then let them walk at the end of their rookie deals.  They're great to have when they're cheap.  But it's not always necessary to hand them Amari Cooper money.  WR is a volatile position due to the personalities of high-end types, and that has to be taken into account before paying them.

FQBs make their own weaponz, not the other way around.

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35 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It's true that great WR's can make sh*tty QB's look a little less sh*tty.  But they aren't an absolute necessity if your QB is worth his salt.  

The Steelers rotate out WR's every single season, it seems, and don't seem to have a problem.  You can barely name Tom Brady's top WR's outside of Moss over the last 2 decades.  The Ravens rearely invest in WR's and have two rings in the past 2 decades.  One of the biggest catches in Super Bowl history was made by a guy named David Tyree.  The Packers have notoriously neglected the WR position (and their 2 best in recent years - Davante Adams and Jordy Nelson, were picks 53 and 36 overall, respectively) with Rodgers but keep on chugging.  

Unless we're talking about Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, Calvin Johnson, and maybe a couple other guys, really good WR's rarely can make a bad QB look competent.  Far more often than not its the other way around:  QB's make the WR, not the other way around.

Don't get me wrong:  I am absolutely not against investing in WR's where it is prudent to do so.  It is still a premium position.  I like the Steelers' approach:  Draft a WR in the rd 2/3 area every year and then let them walk at the end of their rookie deals.  They're great to have when they're cheap.  But it's not always necessary to hand them Amari Cooper money.  WR is a volatile position due to the personalities of high-end types, and that has to be taken into account before paying them.

The Packers had a lot of success with that approach as well. Went from Jennings -> Nelson -> Adams without missing a beat. Obviously quarterback play helps.

Steelers are the best team in the league at drafting WR’s. It’s insane.

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19 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I'm still a Sam believer but I still want us to get Trevor for a few reasons:

1) Sam's salary cap hit

2) I think it will be much easier to hire a high-profile HC if they know they have "the next Elway"

3) Free agents will be more likely to come here if we have a high-profile HC and the hotshot young QB

4) This might just be more of a bonus but it will help excite the fanbase.

This sounds just like the reasons we drafted sam....

and eventually you are Gona have to pay a QB. Man this fan base is cheap 

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9 hours ago, BurnleyJet said:

@The Crusher May need a deeper look at the new trolls, just saying.

Ive been a long time jets fan... over 60 years and you throw around this disrespect like this....

I lived thru the joe namath era. Gase is taking us places. Mark my words.

#GasedGod

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4 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

This sounds just like the reasons we drafted sam....

and eventually you are Gona have to pay a QB. Man this fan base is cheap 

If Darnold was good we'd pay him in heartbeat. We'd all be thrilled to have a QB good enough to pay. But since Darnold hasn't been good and the excuses for Darnold's poor play seem to center around surrounding him with talent -- it's harder to do that when you're paying a bad QB $25 million a year.

That said the bigger deal with Lawrence over Darnold isn't money. It's 1) he's likely to be much better and 2) he's a reason a good coach would want to be here vs. a reason a good coach would want to steer clear.

In 2019 when we were hiring Gase Darnold was arguably a draw. Now he's an albatross. No coach wants to tie his job to salvaging a fourth year QB who has been statically bottom five years 1-3. They want the fresh super prospect they can mold.

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39 minutes ago, FiremanEdIsMyDad said:

Ive been a long time jets fan... over 60 years and you throw around this disrespect like this....

I lived thru the joe namath era. Gase is taking us places. Mark my words.

#GasedGod

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43 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

This sounds just like the reasons we drafted sam....

and eventually you are Gona have to pay a QB. Man this fan base is cheap 

How's about we pay one that performs?

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Isn't the OP the guy who didn't like Patrick Mahomes?

Now he's saying Trevor's not the answer. 

LMAO

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just kidding, @Paradis

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1 hour ago, UntouchableCrew said:

If Darnold was good we'd pay him in heartbeat. We'd all be thrilled to have a QB good enough to pay. But since Darnold hasn't been good and the excuses for Darnold's poor play seem to center around surrounding him with talent -- it's harder to do that when you're paying a bad QB $25 million a year.

That said the bigger deal with Lawrence over Darnold isn't money. It's 1) he's likely to be much better and 2) he's a reason a good coach would want to be here vs. a reason a good coach would want to steer clear.

In 2019 when we were hiring Gase Darnold was arguably a draw. Now he's an albatross. No coach wants to tie his job to salvaging a fourth year QB who has been statically bottom five years 1-3. They want the fresh super prospect they can mold.

“Likely” to be better...we know nothing how he will play in the nfl throwing to guys like cager on the jets yet...

Also I have screenshoted all the sam circle jerks....it’s eerily simile in tone in 2017

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1 hour ago, UntouchableCrew said:

If Darnold was good we'd pay him in heartbeat. We'd all be thrilled to have a QB good enough to pay. But since Darnold hasn't been good and the excuses for Darnold's poor play seem to center around surrounding him with talent -- it's harder to do that when you're paying a bad QB $25 million a year.

That said the bigger deal with Lawrence over Darnold isn't money. It's 1) he's likely to be much better and 2) he's a reason a good coach would want to be here vs. a reason a good coach would want to steer clear.

In 2019 when we were hiring Gase Darnold was arguably a draw. Now he's an albatross. No coach wants to tie his job to salvaging a fourth year QB who has been statically bottom five years 1-3. They want the fresh super prospect they can mold.

You're not way off or anything - but history says that it's never quite that linear/black and white. Organizations constantly deviate from common-think like "new coach wants his own prospect to mold". 

We're going to have Two 1s and one 2 at the moment. 

  • 1st - Lawrence
  • 1st - ?
  • 2nd - ?

Here's a list of needs presently (dire needs)

  • WR (2)
  • RB (1)
  • TE (2)
  • RT (1)
  • CB (3)
  • OLB (2)
  • DE (2)
  • OG (1)

Trevor Lawrence is going to have his ass handed to him in almost identical fashion as Sam. 

 

People on JN are either A) Dramatically underestimating how depleted this roster is, or B) Dramatically over estimating what TL is going to be able to do. Not saying pass on TL, but there's a much bigger conversation than "Take TL and don't look back".

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18 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

“Likely” to be better...we know nothing how he will play in the nfl throwing to guys like cager on the jets yet...

Also I have screenshoted all the sam circle jerks....it’s eerily simile in tone in 2017

I say "likely" because there are no guarantees in life but make no mistake. The chances that Sam Darnold has a better career than Trevor Lawrence at this point are basically zero.

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