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Dan Orlovsky on young QBs struggling in the NFL

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2 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I have and forever will believe the biggest factors in who develops into a stud QB and who develops into a flop is coaching.  Others don't agree and that's fine.  But when it comes to 1sr round QBs, the physical talent is all there.  They all have enough to succeed and the gap between physical traits from one to the next is usually not huge.

And coming from today's college game, they are all asked to process about the same amount of information (which is not a lot).

So the key to success in my opinion will always be which coach can make the mental part of the game the easiest.  Sometimes even a great coach can't solve some QBs issues with mental mistakes.  With someone like Darnold, it may have been foolish to think his turnovers could be cured(I said this leafing up to the draft I believe).  But could he have been coached to a level where they weren't as frequent and he's scratching?  I think so.

The scenarios I imagine are very hard to scout are the Baker Mayfield's of the world.  There is nothing in Mayfield's college career that would indicate he was prone to bad decisions(on the field) and turnovers.  He threw less picks per attempt as a Soph/Junior than Mahomes did in the same conference in similar offenses.  Mahomes has gone on to be the best QB in the league and Mayfield is struggling.  From an information processing stand point, what would have lead anyone to think they would be so vastly different in the ability to process info?  

That's where I think the great QBs separate themselves, their ability to correctly process info and do it quickly.  But how do you judge that in college QBs when so few of them are actually making reads on their own pre-snap?

Wholeheartedly agree, and have had this argument countless times on this board.

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57 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Funny how these guys’ tone changes when they’re forced to address the problems more broadly instead of being able to cowardly attack one already vulnerable coach. When it was Darnold struggling, it was “burn Gase!” Now that it’s Mayfield too, it becomes “heyyyyy these things happen!”

OMG - you have become a full blown unmerciful shameless Gase apologist.  

He didnt excuse it away, like no big deal.  He provided an example of where he watched a coach help a QB through a particular area that he's seeing many QB's struggling with this season.  I for one, appreciated the example he provided of Goff and McVay.

You're disgusting. 

 

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Guess what! Gase is exactly what he’s talking about. Watch the plays back. A lot of plays have one go to guy and the other two are just going through the motions. 
 

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3 minutes ago, JiF said:

OMG - you have become a full blown unmerciful shameless Gase apologist.  

He didnt excuse it away, like no big deal.  He provided an example of where he watched a coach help a QB through a particular area that he's seeing many QB's struggling with this season.  I for one, appreciated the example he provided of Goff and McVay.

You're disgusting. 

 

interesting. id ont think Tom likes gase at all. i think the current level of gase hate is unique to todays environ w/ media and all.

big market, big predraft hyped qb name playing like a bust....       orlovsky thinks sam can get us to the top with magical slop, ffs.

gase is just a name on the hc. the idea is "why no bile for the oc in cleve?"

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44 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I have and forever will believe the biggest factors in who develops into a stud QB and who develops into a flop is coaching.  Others don't agree and that's fine.  But when it comes to 1sr round QBs, the physical talent is all there.  They all have enough to succeed and the gap between physical traits from one to the next is not huge.

And coming from today's college game, they are all asked to process about the same amount of information (which is not a lot).

So the key to success in my opinion will always be which coach can make the mental part of the game the easiest.  Sometimes even a great coach can't solve some QBs issues with mental mistakes.  With someone like Darnold, it may have been foolish to think his turnovers could be cured(I said this leading up to the draft I believe).  But could he have been coached to a level where they weren't as frequent and head scratching?  I think so.

The scenarios I imagine are very hard to scout are the Baker Mayfield's of the world.  There is nothing in Mayfield's college career that would indicate he was prone to bad decisions(on the field) and turnovers.  He threw less picks per attempt as a Soph/Junior than Mahomes did in the same conference in similar offenses.  Mahomes has gone on to be the best QB in the league and Mayfield is struggling.  From an information processing stand point, what would have lead anyone to think they would be so vastly different in the ability to process info?  

That's where I think the great QBs separate themselves, their ability to correctly process info and do it quickly.  But how do you judge that in college QBs when so few of them are actually making reads on their own pre-snap?

we disagree on that 1st pt.

we agree on the 2nd and 3rd.

the play sam got injured on...   beyond coaching....

while i haventmcuh hope, there IS STILL SOME POSSIBILITY SAM TURNS IT AROUND

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6 minutes ago, Losmeister said:

we disagree on that 1st pt.

we agree on the 2nd and 3rd.

the play sam got injured on...   beyond coaching....

while i haventmcuh hope, there IS STILL SOME POSSIBILITY SAM TURNS IT AROUND

I don't have much hope at this point either and my main question now is even if he does, what do I think his ceiling is?  When I look at QBs around the NFL, I have a hard time finding who I think his best might be comparable to?  A more athletic Kirk Cousins? Current version of Tannehill? 

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current version of Tannehill was the highest ceiling Sam EVER had...cos Tanny is playing at an elite level.

ialways thoughtTanny was MEH  and sometimes GOOD. just about nobody saw this coming. he sat behind Mariota.

first step would be to perform at a good Fitz good Dalton level. Cousins isnt a bad comp either.

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21 minutes ago, Losmeister said:

interesting. id ont think Tom likes gase at all. i think the current level of gase hate is unique to todays environ w/ media and all.

big market, big predraft hyped qb name playing like a bust....       orlovsky thinks sam can get us to the top with magical slop, ffs.

gase is just a name on the hc. the idea is "why no bile for the oc in cleve?"

Dont you answer for him, he's a mega Gase apologist.

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1 hour ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I have and forever will believe the biggest factors in who develops into a stud QB and who develops into a flop is coaching

Yes, Manning was very fortunate to come under the tuteledge of Mora :)

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2 minutes ago, Losmeister said:

current version of Tannehill was the highest ceiling Sam EVER had...cos Tanny is playing at an elite level.

ialways thoughtTanny was MEH  and sometimes GOOD. just about nobody saw this coming. he sat behind Mariota.

first step would be to perform at a good Fitz good Dalton level. Cousins isnt a bad comp either.

Look at tannehill’s stats in 2013-2015. In 2013 he had 24 tds and 17 picks.  In 2014 he had 27 tds and 12 picks.  In 2015 he had 24 tds and 12 picks.  These are with bad miami teams and gase for at least one of these years.  Tannehill was never a bad qb.  He just became the best qb he could with a better team and coach.

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3 minutes ago, JiF said:

Dont you answer for him, he's a mega Gase apologist.

oh,amnot answering for him. iirc he always made fun of SAR for toutingGase andtheteamgoing 6-2 lastyeardown the stretch.

 

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1 minute ago, CTM said:

Yes, Manning was very fortunate to come under the tuteledge of Mora :)

he came round at the end of the post when he said it was QB mental processing that WAS THE ONE BIG THING

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2 minutes ago, CTM said:

Yes, Manning was very fortunate to come under the tuteledge of Mora :)

With Tom Moore and Bruce Arians as his offensive coaches.

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2 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Look at tannehill’s stats in 2013-2015. In 2013 he had 24 tds and 17 picks.  In 2014 he had 27 tds and 12 picks.  In 2015 he had 24 tds and 12 picks.  These are with bad miami teams and gase for at least one of these years.  Tannehill was never a bad qb.  He just became the best qb he could with a better team and coach.

i didnt say BAD. andsiad MEH,and SOMETIMES good. maybe good could be updgraded to QUITE GOOD? He was playing well in 2016 b4 he got injured as well. 

playing behind Derrick Henry ... certianly helps....

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1 minute ago, HawkeyeJet said:

With Tom Moore and Bruce Arians as his offensive coaches.

Tom Moore, the guy who was brought here to fix Sanchez in 2011? Wonder why that didn't take

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1 hour ago, HawkeyeJet said:

The scenarios I imagine are very hard to scout are the Baker Mayfield's of the world.  There is nothing in Mayfield's college career that would indicate he was prone to bad decisions(on the field) and turnovers.  He threw less picks per attempt as a Soph/Junior than Mahomes did in the same conference in similar offenses.  Mahomes has gone on to be the best QB in the league and Mayfield is struggling.  From an information processing stand point, what would have lead anyone to think they would be so vastly different in the ability to process info?  

Team talent levels, Oklahoma with Texas Tech.

In the case of the Pros, Andy Reid vs. Flavor of the Week in Cleveland.

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1 hour ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I have and forever will believe the biggest factors in who develops into a stud QB and who develops into a flop is coaching.  Others don't agree and that's fine.  But when it comes to 1sr round QBs, the physical talent is all there.  They all have enough to succeed and the gap between physical traits from one to the next is not huge.

And coming from today's college game, they are all asked to process about the same amount of information (which is not a lot).

So the key to success in my opinion will always be which coach can make the mental part of the game the easiest.  Sometimes even a great coach can't solve some QBs issues with mental mistakes.  With someone like Darnold, it may have been foolish to think his turnovers could be cured(I said this leading up to the draft I believe).  But could he have been coached to a level where they weren't as frequent and head scratching?  I think so.

The scenarios I imagine are very hard to scout are the Baker Mayfield's of the world.  There is nothing in Mayfield's college career that would indicate he was prone to bad decisions(on the field) and turnovers.  He threw less picks per attempt as a Soph/Junior than Mahomes did in the same conference in similar offenses.  Mahomes has gone on to be the best QB in the league and Mayfield is struggling.  From an information processing stand point, what would have lead anyone to think they would be so vastly different in the ability to process info?  

That's where I think the great QBs separate themselves, their ability to correctly process info and do it quickly.  But how do you judge that in college QBs when so few of them are actually making reads on their own pre-snap?

Mayfield is simply not physically talented. 

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1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Funny how these guys’ tone changes when they’re forced to address the problems more broadly instead of being able to cowardly attack one already vulnerable coach. When it was Darnold struggling, it was “burn Gase!” Now that it’s Mayfield too, it becomes “heyyyyy these things happen!”

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20 hours ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I have and forever will believe the biggest factors in who develops into a stud QB and who develops into a flop is coaching.  Others don't agree and that's fine.  But when it comes to 1sr round QBs, the physical talent is all there.  They all have enough to succeed and the gap between physical traits from one to the next is not huge.

And coming from today's college game, they are all asked to process about the same amount of information (which is not a lot).

So the key to success in my opinion will always be which coach can make the mental part of the game the easiest.  Sometimes even a great coach can't solve some QBs issues with mental mistakes.  With someone like Darnold, it may have been foolish to think his turnovers could be cured(I said this leading up to the draft I believe).  But could he have been coached to a level where they weren't as frequent and head scratching?  I think so.

The scenarios I imagine are very hard to scout are the Baker Mayfield's of the world.  There is nothing in Mayfield's college career that would indicate he was prone to bad decisions(on the field) and turnovers.  He threw less picks per attempt as a Soph/Junior than Mahomes did in the same conference in similar offenses.  Mahomes has gone on to be the best QB in the league and Mayfield is struggling.  From an information processing stand point, what would have lead anyone to think they would be so vastly different in the ability to process info?  

That's where I think the great QBs separate themselves, their ability to correctly process info and do it quickly.  But how do you judge that in college QBs when so few of them are actually making reads on their own pre-snap?

Excellent post and I think its even more pertinent to a QB like Sam.

The reason Ive been so high on Sam (prior to the last month) is that he has the things you CANT teach.  He can evade the rush while keeping his eyes downfield and make accurate throws on the run when the play/pocket breaks down.  His issues coming out of college were mechanics and decision making, two things which IMO are very coachable.  Mechanics and college accuracy are what get players like blaine gabbert picked in the top 15.  Ability to feel the rush while working through your progressions are what get you to be a top 5-10 QB in the league.

Now somehow, and yes this is on Sam at this point, he has not been able to be coached about of the bad mechanics, but the true Gase travesty, which is being clearly backed up with Tannenhill is that he would greatly benefit from motion to help with pre-snap reads, moving the pocket so he can throw on the run after his WRs have had more time to get open and general play design that isnt so predictable.  

Its going to be a travesty if Sam gets coaching like Arthur Smith is giving Tannenhill somewhere else, especially if its from the Steelers and their QB coach Matt Canada who has been a very under the radar hire there and who excels with the motion based offense that would greatly benefit Sam

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I get why a young QB trying to master the O would be fixated on the #1 option. I mean, sh*t, the guy is supposed to be open, that's why he is the #1 option. Over time the great QBs develop an instinctive feel for what receivers will be open or even that a a particular play has no chance of success against the D alignment and personnel on the field.

While every play has a #1 option, the great QBs look at the D alignment AND personnel and know which receiver will be the best option on a particular play. Heck, when a great QB finds a matchup he likes, he wears it out. 

You can only beat a great experienced QB if you confuse him and it rarely occurs. Like when the Jets upset Brady and the Pats in the "Can't Wait" game. Brady was befuddled, by the muddled D alignment. But, the next time he saw it, he tore the Jets apart.

With Darnold, I don't think he understands how the call play will look against the D on the field. The problem is, we have no idea if that is because he is being taught in an effective manner for the way he learns, or if he just will never be able to do it.  Since the entire O has a problem executing the plays, the arrow is leaning toward ineffective teaching, but it could be both. This is why Gase has gotta go. Sam can not be measured in the current situation. It effects gauging his future role with the Jets and trade value if the Jets choose to draft Trevor Lawrence.

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21 hours ago, HawkeyeJet said:

 

The scenarios I imagine are very hard to scout are the Baker Mayfield's of the world.  There is nothing in Mayfield's college career that would indicate he was prone to bad decisions(on the field) and turnovers.  He threw less picks per attempt as a Soph/Junior than Mahomes did in the same conference in similar offenses.  Mahomes has gone on to be the best QB in the league and Mayfield is struggling.  From an information processing stand point, what would have lead anyone to think they would be so vastly different in the ability to process info?  

 

I think Mayfield's height is a much bigger factor in the NFL than it was in college. You really need a strong interior o-line and deep drops (like Payton has done with Brees) when your QB is small. I don't think Mayfield is seeing the field as well in the NFL.

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