Why does the offensive line still stink? Except Becton

[Jetsfan80]

29 minutes ago, genot said:

There are other examples sperm. David Carr. Troy Aikmann was crap,until they upg. raded the o-line. Probably a dozen more examples of quarterbacks who played like s.  ,until they team improved their o-line. No

lol no.

And Carr never played well (good OL or not), so he isn't an example either.  Troy Aikman is all you've got, and that was 30 years ago.

[THE BARON]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

I wouldn't necessarily agree that solid starting IOL are the domain of the rd 5-7 range.  But I would agree that they can be found throughout the draft.  

Here are the interior OL in the 2010-18 drafts who were "hits" (multiple Pro Bowls and/or long-term starters):

• G Quenton Nelson (2018 - pick 1.6)
• G Andrus Peat (2015 - pick 1.13)
• G Mike Pouncey (2011 - pick 1.15)
• G Zack Martin (2014 - pick 1.16)
• G Mike Iupati (2010 - pick 1.17)
• C Maurkice Pouncey (2010 - pick 1.18)
• C Ryan Kelly (2016 - pick 1.18)
• G Kyle Long (2013 - 1.20)
• C/G Frank Ragnow (2018 - pick 1.20)
• G David DeCastro (2012 - pick 1.24)
• G James Carpenter (2011 - pick 1.25)
• G Kevin Zeitler (2012 - pick 1.27)
• G Laken Tomlinson (2015 - pick 1.28)
• C Travis Frederick (2013 - pick 1.31)
• G Germain Ifedi (2016 - pick 1.31)
• G Will Hernandez (2018 - pick 2.34)
• G James Daniels (2018 - pick 2.39)
• G Zane Beadles (2010 - pick 2.45)
• G Joel Bitonio (2014 - pick 2.45)
• C Stefen Wisniewski (2011 - pick 2.48)
• C Mitch Morse (2015 - pick 2.49)
• C Nick Martin (2016 - pick 2.50)
• C Rodney Hudson (2011 - pick 2.55)
• C Cody Whitehair (2016 - pick 2.56)
• G Kelech Osemele (2012 - pick 2.60)
• C/G Ali Marpet (2015 - pick 2.61)
• C/G Justin Britt (2014 - pick 2.64)
• G Larry Warford (2013 - 3.65)
• G A.J. Cann (2015 - pick 3.67)
• G/C Pat Elflein (2017 - pick 3.70)
• G Dan Feeney (2017 - pick 3.71)
• G Brandon Brooks (2012 - pick 3.76)
• G Joe Thuney (2016 - pick 3.78)
• G Gabe Jackson (2014 - pick 3.81)
• G John Miller (2015 - pick 3.81)
• G Trai Turner (2014 - pick 3.92)
• G/C Graham Glasgow (2016 - pick 3.95)
• C Ben Jones (2012 - pick 4.99)
• G Clint Boling (2011 - pick 4.101)
• G Daryl Williams (2015 - pick 4.102)
• C Shaw Mason (2015 - pick 4.131)
• G Mark Glowinski (2015 - pick 4.134)
• C Corey Linsley (2014 - pick 5.161)
• G Marshall Newhouse (2010 - pick 5.169)
• C/G Brandon Fusco (2011 - pick 6.172)
• C/G Wes Schweitzer (2016 - pick 6.195)
• C Ted Larsen (2010 - 6.205)
• G Bradley Bozeman (2018 - pick 6.215)
• C/G Austin Blythe (2016 - 7.248)
• G Andrew Norwell (2014 - UDFA)

 

For the 50 IOL above, here's the breakdown:

• 1st rounders:  15 (30 %)
• 2nd rounders:  12 (24 %)
• 3rd rounders:  10 (20 %)
• 4th rounders:  5 (10 %)
• 5th rounders:  2 (4 %)
• 6th rounders:  4 (8 %)
• 7th rounders/UDFA:  2 (4 %)

16 % coming from the 5th round or later isn't too bad of a hit rate, but certainly its not the "sweet spot" of the draft to find IOL.  

Fortunately, only one of the solid IOL came from a top 10 pick, and 9 from the first 20 picks.  Our Seattle first rounder will be a great spot from which to find a quality IOL.  Rounds 2-4 are also very good bets.

I wish I had time to look up a list of pro bowl interior offensive lineman from say, 1980 to present day and what round they came from.  same for HOF interior offensive linemen...

[carlito1171]

7 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Because Ultimately the system doesn’t matter.

completely false....but that's your opinion. There are a countless examples of great players not playing as well in a different scheme....not just at OL but across the field...

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

I wish I had time to look up a list of pro bowl interior offensive lineman from say, 1980 to present day and what round they came from.  same for HOF interior offensive linemen...

The game has changed a lot since 1980, as well as the draft.  Pass blocking is much more important, of course.  The rule changes have pretty drastically changed the way OL are evaluated and drafted.

So I think using data from the last decade is sufficient.

[Sperm Edwards]

3 hours ago, genot said:

He never has a clean pocket. Sanchez was ruined because he never had a clean pocket. Every once in a while a QB has to buy time and make a play. Not 75% of the time he drops back to throw. Sanchez,and now Darnold are suffering some sort of ptsd. We ruined Sanchez. Now we're in the process of ruining Sam. Why would any QB out of college want to play here,considering that

Sanchez came out of USC and walked right into passing behind the NFL's premiere veteran offensive line. WTF are you talking about?

And even on the worst OL in the history of OLs, nobody "never" has a clean pocket unless you're labeling anything under 5 seconds to throw an unclean pocket. 

75% of the time he drops back he has to buy time, lol. In what universe? Both he (like Sanchez a decade ago) lock in on one guy, rarely taking eyes off him and never so much as turning his head. He may as well hold up a poster with the # of the intended target. 

It's not the OL's job to make sure the QB doesn't have to move like he's a tree with roots, until he eventually spots an open receiver even if it takes 4, 5, 6, or however many seconds. Nor is it the line's fault when the requisite time is given, and the WR has run open, and this dickhead (like Sanchez) flat out misses with the throw anyway. 

Darnold was at or just about at top of the NFL in time to throw. That doesn't just happen if defenders are on him in 1 second, unless the new fable is he's always throwing while on the run. 

Short version: I get and agree that Darnold hadn't been handed a great situation, but your above post was 100% bull***t. Not 75%, not 99%. 100% complete and total bull***t. This is how I say "agree to disagree" lolol. 

35 minutes ago, genot said:

There are other examples sperm. David Carr. Troy Aikmann was crap,until they upg. raded the o-line. Probably a dozen more examples of quarterbacks who played like s.  ,until they team improved their o-line. No

Yeah but notice how Troy Aikman is in the HOF not on reality TV with legions of Cowboys fans lamenting on how Jimmy Johnson permanently ruined him those first 2 years.

[THE BARON]

2 minutes ago, carlito1171 said:

completely false....but that's your opinion. There are a countless examples of great players not playing as well in a different scheme....not just at OL but across the field...

agree here.  it is up to the coach to evaluate the roster and build the system around what fits best.

something that GASE has no clue of...  good old "square peg in round hole" gase...

[THE BARON]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The game has changed a lot since 1980, as well as the draft.  Pass blocking is much more important, of course.  The rule changes have pretty drastically changed the way OL are evaluated and drafted.

So I think using data from the last decade is sufficient.

good point.  and the way pass blocking is done has also changed.  a lot more arm work now rather than body contact.  you want nice long arms even on interior guys now... hogs of old might not fair so well in the modern trench

[genot]

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Sanchez came out of USC and walked right into passing behind the NFL's premiere veteran offensive line. WTF are you talking about?

And even on the worst OL in the history of OLs, nobody "never" has a clean pocket unless you're labeling anything under 5 seconds to throw an unclean pocket. 

75% of the time he drops back he has to buy time, lol. In what universe? Both he (like Sanchez a decade ago) lock in on one guy, rarely taking eyes off him and never so much as turning his head. He may as well hold up a poster with the # of the intended target. 

It's not the OL's job to make sure the QB doesn't have to move like he's a tree with roots, until he eventually spots an open receiver even if it takes 4, 5, 6, or however many seconds. Nor is it the line's fault when the requisite time is given, and the WR has run open, and this dickhead (like Sanchez) flat out misses with the throw anyway. 

Darnold was at or just about at top of the NFL in time to throw. That doesn't just happen if defenders are on him in 1 second, unless the new fable is he's always throwing while on the run. 

Short version: I get and agree that Darnold hadn't been handed a great situation, but your above post was 100% bull***t. Not 75%, not 99%. 100% complete and total bull***t. This is how I say "agree to disagree" lolol. 

Why did Sanchez's play regress. Too many nights at strip clubs. Or did it have to do something else. If so, what?

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, genot said:

Why did Sanchez's play regress. Too many nights at strip clubs. Or did it have to do something else. If so, what?

His play didn't regress.  He always sucked.  The Jets were just good enough to hide his sucky play.

This was Sanchez's DVOA ranking each year he was the starter:

• 2009:  # 28
• 2010:  # 24
• 2011:  # 25
• 2012:  # 35

[genot]

5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Sanchez came out of USC and walked right into passing behind the NFL's premiere veteran offensive line. WTF are you talking about?

And even on the worst OL in the history of OLs, nobody "never" has a clean pocket unless you're labeling anything under 5 seconds to throw an unclean pocket. 

75% of the time he drops back he has to buy time, lol. In what universe? Both he (like Sanchez a decade ago) lock in on one guy, rarely taking eyes off him and never so much as turning his head. He may as well hold up a poster with the # of the intended target. 

It's not the OL's job to make sure the QB doesn't have to move like he's a tree with roots, until he eventually spots an open receiver even if it takes 4, 5, 6, or however many seconds. Nor is it the line's fault when the requisite time is given, and the WR has run open, and this dickhead (like Sanchez) flat out misses with the throw anyway. 

Darnold was at or just about at top of the NFL in time to throw. That doesn't just happen if defenders are on him in 1 second, unless the new fable is he's always throwing while on the run. 

Short version: I get and agree that Darnold hadn't been handed a great situation, but your above post was 100% bull***t. Not 75%, not 99%. 100% complete and total bull***t. This is how I say "agree to disagree" lolol. 

our offensive line then according to you doesn't need to be upgraded. Darnold has more protection than most quarterbacks in the league.

[THE BARON]

1 minute ago, genot said:

Why did Sanchez's play regress. Too many nights at strip clubs. Or did it have to do something else. If so, what?

easy answer.  many wont agree but to me it was obvious.  a very talented and athletic kid who would rather be doing other things than be on a football field.  The butt fumble and all the avoidable interceptions were all due to a lack of concentration.  the times he played well were times when there was a lot of pressure on him, such as playoff games and intense "comeback" moments.  that forced him to keep his concentration.  

sanchez was a likable and light minded fellow and he was simply not a football fanatic. 

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, genot said:

our offensive line then according to you doesn't need to be upgraded. Darnold has more protection than most quarterbacks in the league.

Upgrade the OL, certainly.  But the OL being below average isn't a good enough reason to explain away Darnold being terrible at being a QB.  Good QB's make the offense around them better.  They're not fully dependent on the people around them.  

The OL and WR's can be below average/bad and Darnold can also be bad as well.  They aren't mutually exclusive.  Even under ideal circumstances, Darnold will still be a bad QB.

It's pretty simple.  Your argument is the one that requires a lot of mental gymnastics.  Almost always, that argument is the wrong one.

[Sperm Edwards]

2 minutes ago, genot said:

our offensive line then according to you doesn't need to be upgraded. Darnold has more protection than most quarterbacks in the league.

Sure, that's exactly what I said. You go, girl.

[genot]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Sure, that's exactly what I said. You go, girl.

You said Darnold was at the top of the league in time to throw,correct. If that's true, our line is doing a quality job in pass protection. My eye's tell a different story. In other words,that's bull..... Just like the nerd stats about Conner Mcgovern being the 5th best pass blocking center in the league last year. He sucks.

[FidelioJet]

17 minutes ago, carlito1171 said:

completely false....but that's your opinion. There are a countless examples of great players not playing as well in a different scheme....not just at OL but across the field...

 

Sure, but these are his guys.  They were supposed to be zone guys - that's what I heard all off-season.  JD knows what he's doing, he moved on from our sh*tty guys to bring in other sh*tty guys - but he knows what he's doing because they're better for Gase's system.  

You're suggesting the system is the problem. I'm suggesting the players are the problem.  

Zone blocking is not some out-there concept or an avant-garde system.  It's pretty standard, teams win with it.  The system isn't the problem.  The players we have are.

You need good players to win.

 

 

[THE BARON]

9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Upgrade the OL, certainly.  But the OL being below average isn't a good enough reason to explain away Darnold being terrible at being a QB.  Good QB's make the offense around them better.  They're not fully dependent on the people around them.  

The OL and WR's can be below average/bad and Darnold can also be bad as well.  They aren't mutually exclusive.  Even under ideal circumstances, Darnold will still be a bad QB.

It's pretty simple.  Your argument is the one that requires a lot of mental gymnastics.  Almost always, that argument is the wrong one.

Here is my plan to upgrade the offensive line. 

You get a couple of guards like Conrad Dobler and Harvey Dahl. 

Of course opposing teams would insist that they go through a metal detector before games...

[Sperm Edwards]

14 minutes ago, genot said:

You said Darnold was at the top of the league in time to throw,correct. If that's true, our line is doing a quality job in pass protection. My eye's tell a different story. In other words,that's bull..... Just like the nerd stats about Conner Mcgovern being the 5th best pass blocking center in the league last year. He sucks.

Yes he is. That means he takes longer than most to process what he's seeing, not that the line is providing the 3rd most time. The line needs improvement, but it's not the worst OL there's ever been nor that he "never" gets to throw from a clean pocket. The Jets could do with some better players on the OL. They also need a better QB.

Your "eyes tell a different story" lol -- your eyes need glasses. Here's just one example of a guy you say never gets to throw from a clean pocket.

You explain to me how this failed play is about clean pockets.

Or this isn't one of PFF's precious little grades, but they have "eyes" as well:

Quote

Quarterback Sam Darnold led New York to the only passing offense to not generate positive EPA per pass play when kept clean for the week so far, and they were nowhere close to being positive (-0.56). When he was free from pressure, Darnold went 7-for-18 for 59 yards and two interceptions. That’ll likely lead to the worst clean-pocket passing grade in a single game this year.

So please with the "he has no chance" stuff. 18 dropbacks with no pressure / clean pockets (or whatever you want to call it) from this past week alone. But your eyes, lol.

[genot]

10 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Yes he is. That means he takes longer than most to process what he's seeing, not that the line is providing the 3rd most time. The line needs improvement, but it's not the worst OL there's ever been nor that he "never" gets to throw from a clean pocket. The Jets could do with some better players on the OL. They also need a better QB.

Your "eyes tell a different story" lol -- your eyes need glasses. Here's just one example of a guy you say never gets to throw from a clean pocket.

You explain to me how this failed play is about clean pockets.

Darnold makes some bad decisions, throws off his back foot too much. Is that a determining factor in why our offense sucks. In my mind,no. I never said that Darnold was a great QB being held back by those around him. I don't think we have had the supporting cast to fairly evaluate him. Look at Jim Plunkett. Drafted by NE,he sucked behind a terrible o-line. Things changed when he changed teams. No.The word never was an exaggeration. I'll give you that.

[jetstream23]

2 hours ago, Losmeister said:

is this literal, or are you guestimating? not being sarcastic.  i think you are off. but i could be off.

anyway...  the play of the Guards is what I see sucking. The 2 T's and C can play. 

We havent seen Clark, that'll be interesting.

Guesstimate, but I think I'm pretty close.  It's not 90% but it's certainly more than 70% I think.

I eyeballed the roster but here's a quick look at the offense (depth chart from just before Mims returned).  Red are guys NOT drafted, signed or re-signed by Douglas.  Everyone else is his guy.  Also, Edoga is one guy but he's double-counted because he backs up two spots.  This is just for the first two levels of the depth chart and doesn't include other JD guys like Cameron Clark, James Morgan, and Mims (who was injured at the time this depth chart was done.  Same with Hogan who JD signed).  So I think it's very fair to say JD owns this roster.  It's largely his guys, although we all know it's young and full of band-aids...but they are band-aids that he chose and he paid for (Perriman, Fant, GVR, Hogan, etc.)

 

[Sperm Edwards]

33 minutes ago, genot said:

Darnold makes some bad decisions, throws off his back foot too much. Is that a determining factor in why our offense sucks. In my mind,no. I never said that Darnold was a great QB being held back by those around him. I don't think we have had the supporting cast to fairly evaluate him. Look at Jim Plunkett. Drafted by NE,he sucked behind a terrible o-line. Things changed when he changed teams. No.The word never was an exaggeration. I'll give you that.

Not a great QB? He's not even nearly average.

You're the one with the whole "we permanently ruined Mark Sanchez" ridiculousness. After leaving the Jets he had a brief but semi-successful stretch in Philadelphia (when they went no huddle on every play so their eye in the sky could diagnose the play pre-snap for him lol). By your rationale, Aikman (you brought him up) would have surely been "ruined" after those first 2 seasons in Dallas, yet he was a HOFer.

Good/great players don't get ruined unless it was due to an injury that affects their play thereafter. Or even if it does happen, it's 10:1 that the player sucked to begin with. Carr is the example everyone uses - I'd say overuses - but I don't recall Sanchez (or Darnold) setting records by taking more beatings than anyone else. FFS Burrow has been sacked 28X in his first 7 games. Darnold got sacked 30X in his entire rookie season of 13 games. So there goes that idea of yours, because Burrow doesn't look like he's in the midst of getting ruined. Ditto Watson before him, as he took 62 sacks in his first full season. Difference is Watson's not a puss.

This year Darnold's taking 2.84 seconds to throw - marginally less than his 2.92 career average - but then consider how many deep route hot reads Gase took out of Darnold's hands this season (ffs his average completion is under 5 yards), and that is a crazy TTT stat, made even worse when viewed next to his completion percentage. Most others who take longer to throw are scramblers & dual-threat QBs (Jackson, Wilson, Allen, Watson, etc.). The only pure pocket passer who's consistently/cumulatively taken similar TTT these past 3 years is Cousins. 

He sucks. It is my wish he stops sucking immediately, since he's already here and physically can make every throw, and then the Jets can use that top pick to further build around him. But he hasn't earned that honor. Really, he hasn't come close.

[Jetsfan80]

32 minutes ago, genot said:

Darnold makes some bad decisions, throws off his back foot too much. Is that a determining factor in why our offense sucks. In my mind,no. I never said that Darnold was a great QB being held back by those around him. I don't think we have had the supporting cast to fairly evaluate him. Look at Jim Plunkett. Drafted by NE,he sucked behind a terrible o-line. Things changed when he changed teams. No.The word never was an exaggeration. I'll give you that.

 

lol, what?  So you won't even admit Darnold is even part of the problem?

Have a good day.  

[genot]

20 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

lol, what?  So you won't even admit Darnold is even part of the problem?

Have a good day.  

I never said he wasn't part of the problem. What im saying is he won't progress when eveybody around him isn't performing at a certain level. 

[genot]

Just to be clear. Im not a Darnold fan boy. I wanted Mayfield in the draft. I don't trust USC QB's. The failure list is too long. Regardless i think if we have the 1st pick,i want the trade down. We can fix all our issues on offense,and most on defense,in one off season. 

[BornJetsFan1983]

4 hours ago, Mogglez said:

Burrow, as I’ve proven multiple times across multiple threads using statistics, roster analysis, etc., does not have it “a lot easier than Darnold”.  It’s not true in the slightest. 

I don’t care about one throw about Berrios.  I don’t care about his scrambling ability.  I care about the fact that he started out almost perfect, threw one boneheaded interception, and sh*t all over himself for the rest of the game.  I care that he misses wide open receivers right in front of his face for touchdowns.  I care that he still thinks throwing across his body, into triple coverage is still a viable play to make.  He’s a third year quarterback.  Those types of mistakes are on him, and he knows better.  He just isn’t good. That’s it.

right so because you say so, and the great throws that sam does don't count... got it.

You can explain however you want but anyone watching the games can see how much easier Burrow has it. Play calls, protection, talent catching the ball etc...if you have multiple posts explaining otherwise your misinformed or misleading people. Most likely just rationalizing. Either way it's a crok and not going to convince me.

Gee i wonder why burrow doesn't throw into triple coverage and make a great throw like sam did once so far this season, think it might be because his WRs are not some back up slot scrub and gets separation, or maybe that fact that they have better designed plays to get a check down or someone else schemed open? yeah probably huh...

get out of here with this make believe stuff.

[genot]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

lol no.

And Carr never played well (good OL or not), so he isn't an example either.  Troy Aikman is all you've got, and that was 30 years ago.

Tim Couch. Played behind a bunch of jags. Where is he now. He was a can't miss guy coming out of college.

[BornJetsFan1983]

4 hours ago, STLuLu said:

First of all, Burrow doesn't throw dumb picks like Darnold does and he reads coverages and goes through his progressions were Darnold doesn't. That's an indictment on Darnold being he's a third year vet and Burrow is a rookie. Second, please enlighten us on how Burrow has it easier and what stud talent is he surrounded by? 

simply not true. Darnold reads progressions, you literally can see it during plays. Our plays just take obscenely long to develop and the WR are not good enough to get separation even if Darnold gets the massive amount of time needed to let them get in position. 

I mean this is basic Pee wee football stuff. ok not pee wee but high school ball concepts. OBVIOUS

Are you serious about talent hmm lets see mixon, Gio for RB. both better than what we have and used properly in that offense to get them the ball.

On receiving they have old man Green, Boyd, Higgins hell even sample...even their back dude whats his name aiden Tate? that dude is better than berrios. And dont forget his line is much better as well.

So consider your self enlightened. 

[BornJetsFan1983]

17 minutes ago, genot said:

Just to be clear. Im not a Darnold fan boy. I wanted Mayfield in the draft. I don't trust USC QB's. The failure list is too long. Regardless i think if we have the 1st pick,i want the trade down. We can fix all our issues on offense,and most on defense,in one off season. 

That woudl be nice...i just dont see how they pass on a Qb....BUT I am in the camp of sell sell sell and get line line line and some offenseive players to help sam out wiht a new coach. The kid has the talent but the problem is can he actually be coached up at this point or is it too late. If it is too late that will suck, but Im pretty sure we woudl all be happy with an average quarterback with stuff players verse rookie potential star with nothing around him. Because if we dont fix the line it we will just have wasted to potential franchise Qb's instead of 1. 

[BornJetsFan1983]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Not a great QB? He's not even nearly average.

You're the one with the whole "we permanently ruined Mark Sanchez" ridiculousness. After leaving the Jets he had a brief but semi-successful stretch in Philadelphia (when they went no huddle on every play so their eye in the sky could diagnose the play pre-snap for him lol). By your rationale, Aikman (you brought him up) would have surely been "ruined" after those first 2 seasons in Dallas, yet he was a HOFer.

Good/great players don't get ruined unless it was due to an injury that affects their play thereafter. Or even if it does happen, it's 10:1 that the player sucked to begin with. Carr is the example everyone uses - I'd say overuses - but I don't recall Sanchez (or Darnold) setting records by taking more beatings than anyone else. FFS Burrow has been sacked 28X in his first 7 games. Darnold got sacked 30X in his entire rookie season of 13 games. So there goes that idea of yours, because Burrow doesn't look like he's in the midst of getting ruined. Ditto Watson before him, as he took 62 sacks in his first full season. Difference is Watson's not a puss.

This year Darnold's taking 2.84 seconds to throw - marginally less than his 2.92 career average - but then consider how many deep route hot reads Gase took out of Darnold's hands this season (ffs his average completion is under 5 yards), and that is a crazy TTT stat, made even worse when viewed next to his completion percentage. Most others who take longer to throw are scramblers & dual-threat QBs (Jackson, Wilson, Allen, Watson, etc.). The only pure pocket passer who's consistently/cumulatively taken similar TTT these past 3 years is Cousins. 

He sucks. It is my wish he stops sucking immediately, since he's already here and physically can make every throw, and then the Jets can use that top pick to further build around him. But he hasn't earned that honor. Really, he hasn't come close.

Sam talent is better than average and can make every throw.  better coach and he is a probowler..

[genot]

Just now, BornJetsFan1983 said:

That woudl be nice...i just dont see how they pass on a Qb....BUT I am in the camp of sell sell sell and get line line line and some offenseive players to help sam out wiht a new coach. The kid has the talent but the problem is can he actually be coached up at this point or is it too late. If it is too late that will suck, but Im pretty sure we woudl all be happy with an average quarterback with stuff players verse rookie potential star with nothing around him. Because if we dont fix the line it we will just have wasted to potential franchise Qb's instead of 1. 

If it's too late, we press the reset button the next year at QB . At least that QB will be drafted by a team with a lot more talent around him,because of the haul we got in a trade down.

[Mogglez]

36 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

right so because you say so, and the great throws that sam does don't count... got it.

You can explain however you want but anyone watching the games can see how much easier Burrow has it. Play calls, protection, talent catching the ball etc...if you have multiple posts explaining otherwise your misinformed or misleading people. Most likely just rationalizing. Either way it's a crok and not going to convince me.

Gee i wonder why burrow doesn't throw into triple coverage and make a great throw like sam did once so far this season, think it might be because his WRs are not some back up slot scrub and gets separation, or maybe that fact that they have better designed plays to get a check down or someone else schemed open? yeah probably huh...

get out of here with this make believe stuff.

What a crock of sh*t.  Come back to me when there is tangible evidence that Burrow doesn’t actually have an awful offensive line (as of today it is worse than Sam’s), coaching (as bad or, at least, on par with Gase’s), etc.  Only then can you can reply back to me.  If you wanna just wrap yourself up in a Sam Darnold blanket and tell yourself that he’s the absolute bestest and it is everyone else’s fault that he sucks, don’t reply.  Only one of us playing make believe, and it isn’t the one that has broken down numbers, statistics, film of Sam missing WRs and blitz pickups, etc., to prove their point.

Finally, Mark Sanchez made great throws too.  So did Geno Smith.  The good ones make them consistently.  They don’t throw across their body, off their back foot, rolling to the opposite direction, into triple coverage, when there is a wide open receiver in their face for an easy touchdown.  So yeah, unless he’s doing it routinely, you can throw out Sam’s good throws because, more often than not,  he’s making bad throws, reads, and decisions.  Also, if you truly believe Burrow hasn’t made good-great throws this season, you don’t have two functioning eyeballs.

[Mogglez]

25 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

simply not true. Darnold reads progressions, you literally can see it during plays. Our plays just take obscenely long to develop and the WR are not good enough to get separation even if Darnold gets the massive amount of time needed to let them get in position. 

No. He actually doesn’t, but “keep playing make believe”, as you said.

[Jetsfan80]

43 minutes ago, genot said:

Tim Couch. Played behind a bunch of jags. Where is he now. He was a can't miss guy coming out of college.

Also not an example, because he sucked after Cleveland too. 

He also only had a 428 QBASE score coming out of school.  Not terrible but not great either.  Very far from "can't miss".  And I don't recall too many people calling him "can't miss" at the time, either. 

If you're talking "can't miss" guys who busted or disappointed, you need to be listing off the likes of Carson Palmer, RG3 and Byron Leftwich.  Those were prospects on  a completely different level compared to Couch. 

But again, those guys don't qualify for what you're trying to establish:  That QB's can be "ruined" by being on bad teams.  There are zero actual instances of this in NFL history.  Literally zero.  And the only example of a QB who sucked with his first team then went on to success elsewhere is Steve Young.  That's an eternity ago when you compare the NFL then to now.  It might as well have been a completely different sport in the mid-late 80s.  Not even Ryan Tannehill qualifies, because he actually wasn't bad in Miami.  He didn't suck there.

Bad QB's who start out bad end up bad.  It's very simple.

[genot]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Also not an example, because he sucked after Cleveland too. 

He also only had a 428 QBASE score coming out of school.  Not terrible but not great either.  Very far from "can't miss".  And I don't recall too many people calling him "can't miss" at the time, either. 

If you're talking "can't miss" guys who busted or disappointed, you need to be listing off the likes of Carson Palmer, RG3 and Byron Leftwich.  Those were prospects on  a completely different level compared to Couch.  But again, those guys don't qualify for what you're trying to establish:  That QB's can be "ruined" by being on bad teams.  There are zero actual instances of this in NFL history.  Literally zero.

Bad QB's who start out bad end up bad.  It's very simple.

Couch sucked after he left Cleveland because of injuries. Shoulder and elbow tears. Probably because the beating he took for the Browns Sacked 166 times in 62 games.

[Snook]

5 hours ago, STLuLu said:

You forgot to add Ken O'Brien to the list. So O'Brien, Sanchez, and now Darnold all have had some sort of mental issues. Besides playing for the Jets, all three have something in common...they all played for USC. So in other words, USC QBs are weak minded and we need not to ever draft a QB from there again.

O'Brien didn't play for USC.

[BornJetsFan1983]

42 minutes ago, genot said:

If it's too late, we press the reset button the next year at QB . At least that QB will be drafted by a team with a lot more talent around him,because of the haul we got in a trade down.

yeah that would be a great spot to be in