Offensive Tackles Who have failed!

[The Fat Man]

D'Brickashaw Ferguson's status as the top offensive tackle in this year's draft does not guarantee he'll be a premier NFL player. As evidence, we offer the last three tackles drafted among the top five in their classes.

LEONARD DAVIS, Cardinals (second overall, 2001). Part of his problem has been the team's decision to move him repeatedly -- from right guard, to right tackle, back to guard and finally to left tackle, where he has played the past two seasons. Davis has good feet for a man his size (6-6, 381) and can mash opponents in the running game -- when he wants to. The problem: He doesn't want to often enough.

MIKE WILLIAMS, Bills (fourth overall, 2002). Williams has tremendous size (6-6, 360) and can be overpowering at the point of attack, but he lacks the lateral movement to be a good pass protector and doesn't finish blocks consistently. He lost his starting job late last season and was moved to left guard, where he struggled. Unless he shows more motivation, he could be released this offseason.

ROBERT GALLERY, Raiders (second overall, 2004). He was expected to be a cornerstone at left tackle, but all of his 31 starts have been at right tackle. Gallery is tall enough and strong enough to handle the biggest and most powerful ends, but he tends to be passive at times and allows defenders to get their hands on him before he establishes contact. He also has problems against speed rushers. He's expected to improve with a Hall of Fame tackle, Art Shell, as his new head coach.

Source: www.sportingnews.com

[deadringer]

one could name players at every position who have failed in the past...

no player is a guarantee, but d'brick looks like more of one than most other prospects in this years draft...

[bitonti]

this blurb is full of contradictions

ok granted mike williams is a failure but Leonard Davis and Gallery are at least good players and starters.

it's the difference between living up to draft status and being a bust. it's not bad.

Guys like Eugene Chung and Andy Katzenmoyer are "busts"

Dimetrius Underwood, Lawrence Phillips, Blair Thomas and too many to name. True negative busts.

if BOOM is +1.0

if BUST is -1.0

guys like Leonard Davis, Vinny T, Roy Williams, etc are positive decimals smaller than +1 not a BOOM but closer to that than an absolute "BUST" - Vinny passed for all sorts of yards and won alot of games, Leonard Davis is as this writer points out an absolute Masher when he wants to be. it's not HOFer but it's something.

2004 it's only 2006, although Robert Gallery started 31 games at RT he could still switch. It will be interesting to see what the Raiders do because Al Davis has been twitchy and unpredicable in the draft over the years. (maybe a kicker to replace sabastian janikowski )

[The Troll]

There is a flip-side to every coin, and as Bit said, only one of the guys you listed is a flat-out bust.

But how about these guys: Walter Jones, Orlando Pace, Tony Boselli, Jon Ogden, Willie Anderson, Levi Jones.

I seem to recall all of them being high draft choices in the last decade or so. But, then again, fat, lazy Mike Williams failed so, we better not draft D'Brickashaw Ferguson.

[StillerPaul]

I'd still take Robert Gallery. IMO, we couldn't lable him a bust yet.

[Jack Straw]

Bit, I'm working on a draft report that I think is somewhat interesting.

In your opinion, if an offensive lineman was picked in the top 10, but has been a consistant starter in the NFL (not a pro bowler) would you consider him a bust (mike williams as an example)?

[AVM]

There is a flip-side to every coin, and as Bit said, only one of the guys you listed is a flat-out bust.

But how about these guys: Walter Jones, Orlando Pace, Tony Boselli, Jon Ogden, Willie Anderson, Levi Jones.

I seem to recall all of them being high draft choices in the last decade or so. But, then again, fat, lazy Mike Williams failed so, we better not draft D'Brickashaw Ferguson.

well put man. The most common failures with players drafted up top are those who have attitude problems. Be it ryan leaf and his idiotic anger, or mike williams and his LAZY self. D'Brick on the other hand, is one of the more agile tackles coming out of college(therefore not a fat slob), and doesn't appear to have potential anger problems(like kyle turley....who needs helmets anyways??)....D'Brick definately looks like as close to a lock of a o-line pick as you can get

[Preston Howley III]

Tony Boselli

Speaking of Blair Thomas.:Cuss:

[Bugg]

Player I've heard Brick compared to most-Chris Samuel of the Skins. If they aren't going for Culter, having a guy who can watch your QB's blind side and road grade for you running game is a solid pick. It's not sexy for lackm of a better word. The jets' OL is such a mess almsot anyone who can be a solid starter will be an improvment.

Don't think gallery's a bust-yet.

Again, Boselli, Munoz, Samual, Jones, Pace, Ogden, Jumbo Elliott-those are guys you build a team around and pretty much take their excellence for granted-until they're gone.

[Sperm Edwards]

Player I've heard Brick compared to most-Chris Samuel of the Skins. If they aren't going for Culter, having a guy who can watch your QB's blind side and road grade for you running game is a solid pick. It's not sexy for lackm of a better word. The jets' OL is such a mess almsot anyone who can be a solid starter will be an improvment.

Don't think gallery's a bust-yet.

Again, Boselli, Munoz, Samual, Jones, Pace, Ogden, Jumbo Elliott-those are guys you build a team around and pretty much take their excellence for granted-until they're gone.

Perfectly put, Bugg, and Boselli is a great example. Check out Jacksonville's increase in offensive production within 1 year of drafting him (went from an expansion team to being #3 in total yards in the NFL). They stayed as a top-10 offense up to and through 2000, his last year. Then look at the immediate collapse as soon as he wasn't there. They haven't had a top-10 offense since he's been gone. Not coincidentally, they haven't had a franchise-type LT over that span:

http://pro-football-reference.com/teams/jaxindex.htm

[PatsFanTX]

Eugene Chung.

:eek:

[PeterNorth09]

Jets are making a mistake reaching for an O-line guy with the 4th pick when this draft is deep at that position.

[AVM]

Jets are making a mistake reaching for an O-line guy with the 4th pick when this draft is deep at that position.

not if the jets can get D'brick and Max Jean-Giles

that would be a SICK duo to anchor the o-line.

[The Troll]

Jets are making a mistake reaching for an O-line guy with the 4th pick when this draft is deep at that position.

How the hell are they reaching for D'Brick? Some reports say the Titans are very interested in him at 3. Do you even know what a reach is?

[Bugg]

If I hear another knucklehead on a radio show or on this board show say "take AJ Hawk at 4!"- slow, undersized, underweight (and probably relatively weak)white guy with cool name and blond hair with the groovy attention-straved brady Quinn sister girlfriend, Katzenmoyer clone-I'm gonna punch a hole in something and ask said poster be banned.

AJ Hawk is the most overrated player in this draft-PERIOD. And also argualy the thing the Jets need least right now with their mess of an offense and a decent defense, especially at LB.

If anyone thinks that a slow weak marginal pro prospect linebacker should be chosen over a franchise LT, they really need to learn something about NFL football. Without those nasty guys upfront, you don't have an offense. And right now the Jets don't. When you talk simple supply&demand, you can get something like or better than AJ Hawk later in the draft. You cannot say that about franchise LTs.

[PeterNorth09]

How the hell are they reaching for D'Brick? Some reports say the Titans are very interested in him at 3. Do you even know what a reach is?

Drafting an offensive tackle over a possible franchise qb in Cutler is a reach, especially in a draft this loaded at OT.

[PeterNorth09]

If I hear another knucklehead on a radio show or on this board show say "take AJ Hawk at 4!"- slow, undersized, underweight (and probably relatively weak)white guy with cool name and blond hair with the groovy attention-straved brady Quinn sister girlfriend, Katzenmoyer clone-I'm gonna punch a hole in something and ask said poster be banned.

AJ Hawk is the most overrated player in this draft-PERIOD. And also argualy the thing the Jets need least right now with their mess of an offense and a decent defense, especially at LB.

If anyone thinks that a slow weak marginal pro prospect linebacker should be chosen over a franchise LT, they really need to learn something about NFL football. Without those nasty guys upfront, you don't have an offense. And right now the Jets don't. When you talk simple supply&demand, you can get something like or better than AJ Hawk later in the draft. You cannot say that about franchise LTs.

Linebacker is the one position the Jets don't have a need at. They don't need Hawk.

[PatsFanTX]

Jets are making a mistake reaching for an O-line guy with the 4th pick when this draft is deep at that position.

That's pretty funny.

Jet fans have no qualms taking an over rated QB at #4 who isn't even considered a top 20 pick on some boards, but then think they are "reaching" for a bonafide top 5 LT.

Only friggn' Jet fans.

[stormshadow19]

That's pretty funny.

Jet fans have no qualms taking an over rated QB at #4 who isn't even considered a top 20 pick on some boards, but then think they are "reaching" for a bonafide top 5 LT.

Only friggn' Jet fans.

Hey now... don't lump us all together.

But, I do have to ask, who's the overrated QB? Considering everyone considers Cutler a top ten pick and the fact that you do like VY, and Leinhert has always been considered a top five pick... which QB are you talking about?

[PatsFanTX]

Hey now... don't lump us all together.

But, I do have to ask, who's the overrated QB? Considering everyone considers Cutler a top ten pick and the fact that you do like VY, and Leinhert has always been considered a top five pick... which QB are you talking about?

I was referring to Cutler.

Personally, I think there is a huge drop-off from Lienart and Young to Cutler.

Anybody taking Cutler in the top 10 is taking a huge risk.

[Bugg]

Think Young is the much bigger gamble than Cutler. Entirely possible Young never becomes a legit NFL QB. Cutler wil play. COuld argue with the higher risk, there's a more potential for greatness in Young, but it's a big if.

[stormshadow19]

I was referring to Cutler.

Personally, I think there is a huge drop-off from Lienart and Young to Cutler.

Anybody taking Cutler in the top 10 is taking a huge risk.

While I agree about Cutler (and you know I'm not a fan of VY), he's still a projected top ten pick, and has been for awhile. It's possible all three get taken in the top ten. It wouldn't suprise me if Arizona takes a QB, or the Raiders... along with Tennessee and New Orleans.

I feel there's a time and place for everything. This year is not the year for the Jets to take a QB. But... that's just how I feel and not everyone agrees with me.

[The Troll]

If I hear another knucklehead on a radio show or on this board show say "take AJ Hawk at 4!"- slow, undersized, underweight (and probably relatively weak)white guy with cool name and blond hair with the groovy attention-straved brady Quinn sister girlfriend, Katzenmoyer clone-I'm gonna punch a hole in something and ask said poster be banned.

AJ Hawk is the most overrated player in this draft-PERIOD. And also argualy the thing the Jets need least right now with their mess of an offense and a decent defense, especially at LB.

If anyone thinks that a slow weak marginal pro prospect linebacker should be chosen over a franchise LT, they really need to learn something about NFL football. Without those nasty guys upfront, you don't have an offense. And right now the Jets don't. When you talk simple supply&demand, you can get something like or better than AJ Hawk later in the draft. You cannot say that about franchise LTs.

POTW NOM.

[GimmeShelter]

If I hear another knucklehead on a radio show or on this board show say "take AJ Hawk at 4!"- slow, undersized, underweight (and probably relatively weak)white guy with cool name and blond hair with the groovy attention-straved brady Quinn sister girlfriend, Katzenmoyer clone-I'm gonna punch a hole in something and ask said poster be banned.

AJ Hawk is the most overrated player in this draft-PERIOD. And also argualy the thing the Jets need least right now with their mess of an offense and a decent defense, especially at LB.

If anyone thinks that a slow weak marginal pro prospect linebacker should be chosen over a franchise LT, they really need to learn something about NFL football. Without those nasty guys upfront, you don't have an offense. And right now the Jets don't. When you talk simple supply&demand, you can get something like or better than AJ Hawk later in the draft. You cannot say that about franchise LTs.

Agree Hawk isn't the 4th pick and especially not for our team but he does have reputable sources who consider him a player.

Browns' head coach Romeo Crennel is high on LB AJ Hawk.

When asked if there was a college player who could make a Shawne Merriman-type impact as a rookie, the Pats' former defensive coordinator responded "He

[Sperm Edwards]

Anyone worried about a franchise-LT turning into a bust after "wasting" a top-10 pick on him should look at the history of the other position the Jets may be looking at with their high pick: QB

First-round QB’s since 1990 (top-10 in boldface):

1990

#1 Jeff George

#7 Andre Ware

1991

#16 Dan McGwire

#24 Todd Marinovich

1992

#6 David Klinger

#25 Tommy Maddox

1992 supplemental

Dave Brown

1993

#1 Drew Bledsoe

#2 Rick Mirer

1994

#3 Heath Shuler

#6 Trent Dilfer

1995

#3 Steve McNair

#5 Kerry Collins

1996

(none)

1997

#25 Jim Druckenmiller

1998

#1 Peyton Manning

#2 Ryan Leaf

1999

#1 Tim Couch

#2 Donovan McNabb

#3 Akili Smith

#11 Daunte Culpepper

#12 Cade McNown

2000

#18 Chad Pennington

2001

#1 Michael Vick

2002

#1 David Carr

#3 Joey Harrington

#31 Patrick Ramsey

2003

#1 Carson Palmer

#7 Byron Leftwich

#19 Kyle Boller

#22 Rex Grossman

2004

#1 Eli Manning

#4 Philip Rivers

#12 Ben Rothlisburger

#22 J.P. Losman

2005

#1 Alex Smith

#24 Aaron Rodgers

#25 Jason Campbell

(Ignore 2004-2005 b/c they don’t even have 3 years in the league yet)

Total top-10 drafted QB’s: 19

Total who lived up to their draft slot: 7 (and I’m being generous): Bledsoe, McNair, Collins, P.Manning, McNabb, Vick, Palmer

Total who haven’t lived up to their draft slot: 12

(George, Ware, Klinger, Mirer, Shuler, Dilfer, Leaf, Couch, Smith, Carr, Harrington, Leftwich)

Total “flops”: (again I’m being generous): 7 (Ware, Klinger, Mirer, Shuler, Leaf, Couch, Smith)

Paid off = 7/19 (37%)

Didn’t pay off as expected= 12/19 (63%)

Total useless flop = 7/19 (37%)

And make no mistake, personal predictions about any 1 player’s NFL potential aside on draft day, they were ALL considered top talents.

Compare that to the OT's taken top-10 & then see where the bigger risk lies.

[PatsFanTX]

Compare that to the OT's taken top-10 & then see where the bigger risk lies.

So Spermy, do you endorse taking Cutler with the #4 pick?

Nice analysis.

[shutout]

Jets are making a mistake reaching for an O-line guy with the 4th pick when this draft is deep at that position.

Here's a train of thought that has been bugging me as of late. Why should we pass on the best possible player available at a need position who would hypothetically be available to us at #4 to take someone else because "there are other tackles available in the draft". Are any of those tackles in D'Brick's league? Can you honestly say "Hey,lets take Daryn Colledge later,or Jeremy Trueblood and place them at LT for the next 10 years" Sorry,it just doesn't make sense to me when looking at the scenario from the 2 most popular draft ideologies.

If you want to draft BPA,unless Bush falls to 4 somehow,D'Brick would be the best player available. If you go by need,well there are so many on the offensive side,how do you decide which is most pressing? Would the 2nd best available QB be the better pick than the best available LT? Especially when that QB would end up David Carr part II behind our O-Line?

I understand when people want to pass on Ferguson to trade down,stockpile extra picks and fill more holes through the pick,but I don't get passing on the guy if he's the best player there just because there are "decent prospects" to be had later in the draft. If we can't trade down,and Ferguson is there,we need to take him for the exact reason that Houston will most likely take Reggie Bush:

When you're rebuilding,you don't pass on that sort of talent just because you've got a decent-good player at that position like a Domanick Davis.

With us,you don't pass on a guy who can be a franchise LT and anchor your line for 10 years because you've got a guy who played decent last year in Adrain Jones or because you can get a lesser talent later in the draft. If you can get greatness,you get it.

To me,the choice is obvious...Unless we've got a chance to draft Reggie Bush, We either need to a)Trade Down with someone who wants Cutler or Young,whichever Tenn. doesn't take(assuming they go QB) or B)take the Brick.

Ok,maybe rather than blathering on and on,I should have simply posted this: I think D'Brickashaw Ferguson has a better chance of being a Franchise LT than Jay Cutler does of being a Franchise QB.

[Bugg]

Agree Hawk isn't the 4th pick and especially not for our team but he does have reputable sources who consider him a player.

Browns' head coach Romeo Crennel is high on LB AJ Hawk.

When asked if there was a college player who could make a Shawne Merriman-type impact as a rookie, the Pats' former defensive coordinator responded "He

[stormshadow19]

Nice analysis, Sperm. But, I do have to ask... why do you consider Kerry Collins worth the number five pick overall and Mike Vick the number one pick overall? While they weren't busts, I wouldn't consider them worth their draft status.

But, looking over that analysis, you do have to question the drafting of a top ten QB. Ignoring the guys who don't have 3 years in the league, there's only 5 top ten drafted QB's that I'd want (using Sperm's findings). Drew Bledsoe, Steve McNair, Peyton Manning, Donavan McNabb, and Carson Palmer. Byron Leftwich and Mike Vick could make that list,, but they're not on it, right now. That's five, or a possible seven, out of twenty two.

[PatsFanTX]

But, looking over that analysis, you do have to question the drafting of a top ten QB.

The Jets should do what the really smart teams do, wait until the 6th round to draft Super Bowl MVP QB's.

Much cheaper and a lot less risk.

[stormshadow19]

The Jets should do what the really smart teams do, wait until the 6th round to draft Super Bowl MVP QB's.

Much cheaper and a lot less risk.

What about 6th round Super Bowl MVP running backs?

[Sperm Edwards]

Nice analysis, Sperm. But, I do have to ask... why do you consider Kerry Collins worth the number five pick overall and Mike Vick the number one pick overall? While they weren't busts, I wouldn't consider them worth their draft status.

But, looking over that analysis, you do have to question the drafting of a top ten QB. Ignoring the guys who don't have 3 years in the league, there's only 5 top ten drafted QB's that I'd want (using Sperm's findings). Drew Bledsoe, Steve McNair, Peyton Manning, Donavan McNabb, and Carson Palmer. Byron Leftwich and Mike Vick could make that list,, but they're not on it, right now. That's five, or a possible seven, out of twenty two.

I don't necessarily. But I wanted to be as intellectually honest as I could be in labelling someone "successful" or a "bust". Bledsoe may not have turned into the hall-of-fame caliber QB the Pats thought they were drafting, but clearly he has had a productive enough career to warrant picking at any draft slot. The idea that there were better players drafted lower is irrelevant. No team drafts with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, so I'd have to say he's lived up to his billing as the #1 pick.

Now take Collins, who you brought up. Again, he hasn't had a stellar career, but he has HAD a career, unlike the Shulers & Leafs. Being a legitimate, starting, NFL QB for about 10 seasons I think would qualify him as a successful player. He fizzled out with the team that drafted him, but not before going to the pro-bowl & taking his team to the NFC Championship Game. He also was a big part of the Giants going to the SB some 5 years later. Was he the REASON they went to the SB? Of course not. But if the Giants had let the QB position rest in the hands of Kent Graham, I don't think they would've been there. So I would say he's had a successful career. Not as successful as some, but certainly more successful than most QB's drafted in the top-5, top-10, first-round, or otherwise.

Vick I think is a lousy QB. He's a faster Randle-El with a stronger arm. But he's not getting benched by Atlanta anytime soon & if he was released, a bunch of teams would be lining up to recruit his services.

The reality is that when drafting that high, it is expected that the player drafted will be GREAT. The top of the draft doesn't even guarantee that the player will be a legit starter, even less that it guarantees greatness. HIGH hopes say that a player drafted that high SHOULD be great. In reality, given the history, one should be satisfied with a player who is a real starter & at worst doesn't hold the team back. (If the team is unsuccessful, it's not because that top-10 draftee sucks ass; but their success may not be dependant upon that player carrying the team).

But not all positions are equal. A QB who turns into a decent starter like Collins can be considered a successful pick since any year there are maybe between 10-20 such people in the world. Other positions, though, I believe a team holds to a higher standard. Because those other positions are more supporting roles than a QB, the player really needs to be great to stand out as a worthwhile pick. For the Jets, D-Rob & Marvin Jones (both drafted #4) are good examples. Jones had a successful career & D-Rob will likely as well when all is said & done. But is it the production expected of a #4 pick? No way. We hold them to a higher standard b/c there are LOTS of linebackers & linemen out there who are competent enough to give starting roles to & they can be found anywhere in the draft.

So Spermy, do you endorse taking Cutler with the #4 pick?

Yes and no. If we're going to definitely address the QB position through the draft, I would "endorse" it (like the Jets really seek the endorsement of Sperm Edwards) rather than trying to luck into one in later rounds. Even more so if there's no salary cap after this year, then the risk is - to my thinking - less. All you end up with is a wasted draft pick if he busts. But if there's a new CBA & he busts, you wasted a pick & he's eating up too much cap room to afford a viable replacement for a couple of years (see Chad Pennington, post-megacontract).

My feeling, with a draft this deep at positions we have needs in (try to hold off on your anticipated smart-ass comment that we need everything right now), it has been my feeling that they should trade down to acquire another high 2nd-rounder.

[ThunderbirdJet]

In the 1995 to 2000 drafts, the OT's taken in the top ten worked out very well. Since then....

2001

Leonard Davis,2

2002

Mike Williams,4

Bryant McKinnie,7

Levi Jones,10

2003

Jordan Gross,8

2004

Gallery,2

Not so good.

[Sharrow]

Like I said before, they're due for a rebound.