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Change my mind: Sam is the biggest bust in Jets history


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4 hours ago, Gastineau Lives said:

I can't believe he's out of the league already. 

He'll be out of the league by the time he's 28 years old.  No later than 2025.

He's headed for the Mark Sanchez route.  Given several chances in the league but not capable of even being a QB2 in the NFL (backups need to be consistent, not turnover prone improvisors).  

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I wouldn't place Darnold as the franchise's biggest bust, because there are just far too many contenders. 

I also wouldn't put Gholston in that spot, because EDGE rusher was a big need, Gholston had some athleticism, and that draft class was pretty barren once you got out of the top 5.  Monster bust, yes, but not in my top 5 of biggest Jet draft busts.

Considering Anthony Munoz (# 3) and Art Monk (# 18) were taken behind him, Lam Jones would probably be my # 1 Jets bust.  

Blair Thomas (# 2) in the same class as Junior Seau (# 5), Emmitt Smith (# 17), Cortez Kennedy (# 3) and Richmond Webb (# 9) is the other big contender for the # 1 slot.  

The worst PICK in Jets history is Christian Hackenberg.  Especially since we passed on the QB's in the next class because of his presence.

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4 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Do not put them in the same sentence. Not yet. 

Give me a good reason not to and I won't.  

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6 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

What would you call a guy that was drafted number five overall and with the best offensive line in football, the best running game, one of the best defenses to keep him from playing from behind and forcing him into predictable game plans, Santonio Holmes, Braylon Edwards, Jerricho Cotchery, Dustin Keller and good pass catching backs and produced:

55 completion percentage, 60 tds to 69 interceptions

Are we ******* kidding with this thread?

This thread should come with it's own home attendant and drool bib

 

And yet Darnold is just as bad as Sanchez.  So what's your point?

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7 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

He's not, his stats are better and the situation he was put in is the EXACT opposite. You couldn't GET more opposite. Are you kidding? You're joking no? This is a joke, correct? 

It's like me asking you to post using just the x's, fours, u's and an ampersand

Darnold has 34 INTs and 17 fumbles in 32 starts.

Sanchez had 69 INTs and 43 fumbles in 62 starts.

 

Darnold:  1.6 INTs/fumbles per start.

Sanchez:  1.8 INTs/fumbles per start

 

Exact opposites.  lmao

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3 minutes ago, genot said:

Wide receivers are just as important to a QB's success as a QB is to theirs. That was my point. You couldn't figure that out.

No.  They're not.  How many of Peyton Manning's, Tom Brady's, Aaron Rodgers'. Drew Brees', Russell Wilson's receivers can you name? 

OK, those are all-time greats.  Let's go down a notch or 2.  How many of Eli Manning's, Matthew Stafford's, Carson Palmer's or Andrew Luck's receivers can you name?

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1 minute ago, Gastineau Lives said:

I wonder what those stats would be if Darnold was given a team of junior high schoolers and Sanchez was given the five best offensive lineman of all time, Randy Moss, Jerry Rice, Barry Sanders and Tony Gonzalez? 

I wonder what those stats would be in a world where WR's make the QB and not in reality where its the other way around?  And yes, Braylon Edwards was totally Jerry Rice, lmao.

Funny how, all of a sudden, we have pro-level WR's with Flacco under center but not when Darnold was under center.

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Just now, Gastineau Lives said:

Well I know FOR SURE how one of them performed with a VASTLY better team around them.

They both suck.  Sanchez just sucks slightly worse.  Oh man you win Darnold is secretly good and Sanchez's exact opposite.

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Just now, Gastineau Lives said:

Oh this is your pretending I was comparing Braylon Edwards to Jerry Rice. 

This is you pretending to be dumb to exhaust me. I'm not playing. 

If you think the entire team surrounding a player doesn't matter, then I don't know what to tell you.

It matters, just not as much as you think it does when evaluating a QB.  A QB can still be terrible regardless of who he is throwing to.  Darnold is objectively terrible at football.  He doesn't get a mulligan for any of his 3 awful seasons just because the WR's weren't good.

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Just now, Gastineau Lives said:

And now this is me responding to you when in fact I was responding to the OP and the ORIGINAL PREMISE of the thread and you injecting yourself sideways into the original point until it gets obliterated.

Doesn't make my point any less relevant regardless of who you were talking to.  Just because Darnold might not be the biggest bust in franchise history, and not as big of a bust as Sanchez, doesn't make him Sanchez's "exact opposite", which is an absurd take.

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3 minutes ago, genot said:

Remember the Texans game. Darnold played just a well as Watson. The difference in that game was Hopkins. Stop it.

No, he didn't.  

And meanwhile all Darnoldbros can do is cherry pick and call his failures "outliers".  You never, ever look at the big picture.  Nearly every QB in league history, regardless of how bad, could put together a handful of nice games in his career.  When you sh*t your pants in the rest of them, it doesn't matter a whole lot.

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2 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

I didn't call him the exact opposite. Quote me where I did. I'll wait here.

 

21 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

He's not, his stats are better and the situation he was put in is the EXACT opposite. You couldn't GET more opposite. Are you kidding? You're joking no? This is a joke, correct? 

It's like me asking you to post using just the x's, fours, u's and an ampersand

 

So the "his stats are better" and "you couldn't get more opposite" were only you talking about the situation they were put in?  OK.  

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1 hour ago, The Crusher said:

Year we traded up fir Donald ? Who the hell is instant  HOFer we could have drafted 

Quenton Nelson.  He was a 1st-team All-Pro each of his first 2 seasons in the league, and will likely get there again this year.  Absolutely on a HOF track already.

Amazingly, the Colts arguably got the 2 best players in that entire draft at  # 6 and at # 36:  Nelson and Darius Leonard.  When all is said and done they will have longer and more successful careers than Saquon Barkley.  Leonard is a rich man's Jamal Adams (7 career INTs, 13 sacks, 7 FFs) who has already been to a Pro Bowl (2019) and been named a 1st-Team All-Pro (2018).

Minkah Fitzpatrick, Orlando Brown, Mark Andrews, Josh Allen and Tremaine Edmunds are other contenders but so far, Nelson and Leonard would be my top 2 players from that entire class.

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1 hour ago, Saul Goodman said:

Unpopular opinion - Sam Darnold is the player we saw the second half of last year. His 13 TD/4 INT production from those 8 games can be replicated over full seasons on a team with good players and coaches (extrapolated to 26 TD/8 INT). We saw it in the final quarter of his rookie season as well. 

Does he get to face 6 of the 8 worst defenses in the league?

Even when you extrapolate those 8 games over a full season, Darnold was merely middle of the pack compared to QB's around the  league.  So the absolute best you'll ever see is Darnold playing like a league average QB against a bad defense.  Sweet!

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41 minutes ago, Maxman said:

Sam Darnold will be in the league in ten years. That doesn't make him the biggest bust in the Jets history.

Even if this ends up being true, how does it help the Jets that he stays in the league with other teams?

And in what role will he be in the league?  I think he ends up the next Sanchez, bouncing around to something like 4 other teams as a QB2/QB3.  Maybe he ends up more like Geno Smith, who proves to be a more capable QB2 option than Sanchez.  Is he not-a-bust if he's merely backup caliber?

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40 minutes ago, Charlie Brown said:

Thank you!!

No one was saying Darnold was a Bust when he was doing stuff like this....

 

Now folks act like this didn't happen...

 

Yes, they were.  Because a highlight reel of backyard plays does not a QB resume make.  It's the consistent, week in and week out, boring pocket passes that make a QB.  

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19 minutes ago, genot said:

That's nonsense. You don't think Graham and Gronkowski made a difference in the success of their QB's. Please. If scouts and GM's felt that way, they'd wait till the late rounds to sign all their receivers. 

lol, Jimmy Graham?  He was a 1st team All-Pro exactly once, despite playing with Brees, Wilson and Aaron Rodgers, and hasn't been relevant since 2016.  

Gronk I will give you.  He was an absolute game-changer and especially helped Brady as he got older.  But Brady had been having tremendous success well before Gronk.  Do you really think the likes of Ben Watson, Daniel Graham, Deion Branch, Troy Brown, Wes Welker and Julian Edelman were "special"?

If Darnold had those guys as his receiving options, undoubtedly there would be the same complaints/excuses people are making right now.  

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10 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

The real world is where one guy had the best offensive line, the other the worst. One guy had the best running game in football, the other the worst. One guy had a top ten receiving corp to throw to, the other guy the worst BY FAR. 

Yet the first guy put up WORSE stats than the second but I'm told he is actually BETTER than the other guy. In what bizarro world of reality would that make sense?

 

We just saw a thread here yesterday suggesting we might be fine at WR with a trio of Crowder, Mims and Perriman.  Even if that trio is indeed the worst in the NFL, it's really not all that bad.  

What excuses will there be when Darnold sh*ts the bed, again, with all 3 of those guys healthy?  The O-Line would be my guess.

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11 minutes ago, jgb said:

The main reason I pray Lawrence is a huge hit is so we don't have to dissect every Darnold career pass going forward.

It'll happen regardless.  It'll just be a lot more muted if Lawrence/Fields/whoever is awesome out of the gates.

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11 minutes ago, genot said:

If your receivers are crap , you o- line is crap, your offense is crap. I don't care who the Quarterback is. Watson is a good QB, playing behind a better line, with a group of pretty good veteran receivers, who've managed to stay healthy for him.

Our OL and WR's aren't as bad as you think.  And last I checked, QB's drive offenses in the NFL.  QB's lift up the play of their OL and WR's.  It's why the offense looked competent on Sunday even with Flacco's old, disinterested a$$ back there.  He's better than Darnold. 

We haven't seen the kind of deep ball accuracy that Flacco provided since Vinny T.

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Just now, Gastineau Lives said:

Oh now we're predicting the future. Can you start a thread for that? This one is about things that have happened.

Yes, I'm predicting the future based on the tangible evidence we have.  Not hypotheticals that suggest Darnold is secretly good at football if only he had a Megatron.  

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1 minute ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Never said he was secretly good. There is not one thing I've said in this entire thread that suggested that. Argue the things I say, not things you want me to.

You have yet to state what your actual argument is, despite several requests to do so.  So what is your argument?

Darnold > Sanchez.  Fine by me.  We've moved on from that.  What else are you arguing?

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Just now, genot said:

Chargers we're a 2-7 team for a reason. One of them is their secondary sucks. Flacco had a good game against the Pats. The Pats defense is bad this year.

 Thd

I'd greatly enjoy it if Darnold could take advantage of a bad secondary like Flacco did on Sunday.  

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Just now, Gastineau Lives said:

Well, this all began with me saying that there is no evidence that suggests that Mark Sanchez is better than Sam Darnold. Now I know you think Mark Sanchez is a borderline hall of famer, but I can assure you, he's not. (wow that's fun, I should have tried that sooner)

We've moved on from this already.  I already agreed Darnold > Sanchez, although its close.

What else you got?  Because the conversation hasn't been about Sanchez for some time. 

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1 minute ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Why does there HAVE to be something else? I just wandered in here, said that Sanchez was not better than him, proved it with facts and now I'm being gang banged by two guys who's gf's cheated on them with gingers, apparently.

But why would the idea of Sanchez > Darnold be so infuriating for you that you would spend 6 pages arguing over it?  They're about the same guy.  What's the big deal with suggesting this?

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1 minute ago, Gastineau Lives said:

You need to go back. I responded with a six word reply and got sucked into a vortex. 

That's on you.  You knew would what this would be the moment you got into this discussion with me and jgb.

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2 minutes ago, genot said:

Great points. Lets not forget special teams. Have we had one good return the whole year. Field position is another problem that needs to be addressed.. Nice to start some drives on the 50,instead of your own 20,all the time

lol.  Field position.

We're really scraping the barrel to find excuses for Darnold these days, aren't we.

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2 minutes ago, genot said:

I was adding to the reasons stated in his post. Our offense has been bad for a number of reason. That's one of them. 

The top reason our offense has been bad for decades has been QB play.  The top reasons for bad QB play are bad GM's hired by bad owners.   

The rest of this nonsense being argued in this thread is just window dressing.  Has neglecting the OL at times and drafting receivers like Stephen Hill, ArDarius Stewart, Chad Hansen and Devin Smith been part of that?  Absolutely.  The driving force?  Nah.  

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6 minutes ago, Saul Goodman said:

Many players get better as they gain experience. My opinions on Darnold are far more plausible than yours that he’ll be out of the league soon. 

Darnold is almost exactly the same QB in year 3 as he was in years 1-2, and the same guy he was in college.  He hasn't gotten better, and is showing no signs that he will, because his skillset isn't at all NFL caliber.  His "talent" that he has shown is nothing special whatsoever.  Your hope is that he "improves" halfway thru year 3 of his career, or the remainder of his career, when he hasn't shown any improvement to date?  No, I can say with confidence that opinion on Darnold is NOT "far more plausible" than mine. 

QB's better than Darnold have been out of the league quicker than what I suggested for Darnold.  Him being a former # 3 overall pick is the only thing that will keep him around a while, just like Sanchez.  It's more than generous to say he'll bounce around the league until about 2025.  Darnold is a QB3 in this league.  

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2 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

How many does it take to form a circle? How many jerks? You see where I'm going with this. 

It's a trio now. 

I'm not saying you're completely wrong but it's kind of funny

 

breaking bad jelly GIF

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1 minute ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Faith is the thing you revert to when there is lack of evidence, no?

Given the evidence we have, much more faith is needed to think Sam Darnold might be good than there is to suggest he's really bad.  

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4 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Sam Darnold is going to be the best quarterback to ever play the game. And second best U.S. President behind Abraham Lincoln, who was a crappy quarterback.

Lincoln was a tremendous athlete.  An elite wrestler, in particular.  He won a wrestling championship for his county in 1830, at the age of 21.  He was only defeated once, reportedly, in his entire wrestling career.

If football had been around during his time, I have no doubt he would have excelled at it at at least the collegiate level.  Maybe not at QB but certainly at WR.  He was 6-4, 185 and muscular.  Any decent 40 time would have made him an instant pro prospect.

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