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BroadwayRay

What was your Darnold tipping point?

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9 hours ago, pdxgreen said:

When I realized that "But he's only 22 years old" was the lamest excuse in the world.  And I was saying it after every bad game.

source.gif.a8c7bbcfe582baa15c575cad97a73d97.gif

Yea, when the built-in excuses (regardless of what they are) have to be conjured over and over, then it becomes an exercise of recognition really...

We've had to do this repeatedly with so many players and coaches over the years. 

He needs weaponz... he’s playing out of position... if we had a pass rush, then xyz would be better... he only focuses on the defense... he doesn’t have his guys... he handpicked his guys... 

At some point we have to discern between normal mmqb hand-wringing and excuses for under-qualified players and coaches.

Frankly, I like Sam. However, he’s not very good right now - and we’ve made the prospect of him becoming good worse by setting him up to fail. 

I reached my tipping point when we hired Gase. I knew right then that Sam would eventually suffer being run out of town, as Gase does a better job manipulating his bosses than developing talent. See: getting Mac fired.

It became clearer when I realized Trevor Lawrence and a clean slate coaching staff was in reach.

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I was thoroughly impressed with Sam after his rookie year.  Yes, he had some bad plays and games, but what rookie doesn't?

The doubts crept in during season 2/week 1.  He looked like sh*t vs Buffalo.  But we found out it was MONO!  Thank Christ, right?  Then he had a great game vs the Cowboys and everything was good.  Until it wasn't.  During his 6-2 stretch I was unimpressed.  Those special throws he made his rookie year, rolling left and spotting it perfectly over the defender's head, weren't there.  The team was winning, but Sam was failing my eyeball test.  I had myself convinced it was because he was still recovering and had the lingering effects.

Now season 3 has been a total and complete failure.  He looks worse than ever, can't read a defense, and misses the open receivers.  

The only thing keeping me going right now is the hope we can get Lawerence or Fields.  

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1 minute ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

I was thoroughly impressed with Sam after his rookie year.  Yes, he had some bad plays and games, but what rookie doesn't?

The doubts crept in during season 2/week 1.  He looked like sh*t vs Buffalo.  But we found out it was MONO!  Thanks Christ, right?  Then he had a great game vs the Cowboys and everything was good.  Until it wasn't.  During his 6-2 stretch I was unimpressed.  Those special throws he made his rookie year, rolling left and spotting it perfectly over the defender's head, weren't there.  The team was winning, but Sam was failing my eyeball test.  I had myself convinced it was because he was still recovering and had the lingering effects.

Now season 3 has been a total and complete failure.  He looks worse than ever, can't read a defense, and misses the open receivers.  

Perfectly summarizes the roller coaster. Damn. I’ve never been caught so off guard. To think, we hated Bates his first year.

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6 minutes ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

I was thoroughly impressed with Sam after his rookie year.  Yes, he had some bad plays and games, but what rookie doesn't?

The doubts crept in during season 2/week 1.  He looked like sh*t vs Buffalo.  But we found out it was MONO!  Thank Christ, right?  Then he had a great game vs the Cowboys and everything was good.  Until it wasn't.  During his 6-2 stretch I was unimpressed.  Those special throws he made his rookie year, rolling left and spotting it perfectly over the defender's head, weren't there.  The team was winning, but Sam was failing my eyeball test.  I had myself convinced it was because he was still recovering and had the lingering effects.

Now season 3 has been a total and complete failure.  He looks worse than ever, can't read a defense, and misses the open receivers.  

The only thing keeping me going right now is the hope we can get Lawerence or Fields.  

Darnold was underrated in that 6-2 run.  No OL and his receivers aside from Robby all sucked

 

this year was a perfect storm of Gase ineptitude, him losing Robby and Mims missing all of TC and the first 6 games of the season

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8 minutes ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

I was thoroughly impressed with Sam after his rookie year.  Yes, he had some bad plays and games, but what rookie doesn't?

The doubts crept in during season 2/week 1.  He looked like sh*t vs Buffalo.  But we found out it was MONO!  Thank Christ, right?  Then he had a great game vs the Cowboys and everything was good.  Until it wasn't.  During his 6-2 stretch I was unimpressed.  Those special throws he made his rookie year, rolling left and spotting it perfectly over the defender's head, weren't there.  The team was winning, but Sam was failing my eyeball test.  I had myself convinced it was because he was still recovering and had the lingering effects.

Now season 3 has been a total and complete failure.  He looks worse than ever, can't read a defense, and misses the open receivers.  

The only thing keeping me going right now is the hope we can get Lawerence or Fields.  

This is pretty much the right answer in a nutshell. 
 

I was genuinely confident he was the answer after his rookie year. I think most fans felt the same way.  

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8 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Darnold was underrated in that 6-2 run.  No OL and his receivers aside from Robby all sucked

Ah, Darnold was underrated in that 6-2 run but Gase was overrated.  LOL.

9 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

this year was a perfect storm of Gase ineptitude, him losing Robby and Mims missing all of TC and the first 6 games of the season

Adam Gase coached the guy for a few weeks during a pandemic-shortened camp with no preseason games.  The amount of time a head coach can spend with 1 player under those conditions is fractional.

Jordan Palmer coached the guy for 3 months in a vag-free mono-free quarantine lockdown, nothing but football 24/7, and Darnold was still making the same mistakes he was making in junior high school.

Darnold is a bust.  It's not on Gase or any member of the Jets organization.

SAR I

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9 hours ago, SAR I said:

Week 1 this year at Buffalo. Couldn’t hit the side of a barn after being quarantined in Jordan Palmer’s House of Quarterbacks for 3 months. 

SAR I

Going into this season, you had Sam as the 4th best QB in the AFC (behind Mahomes, LJ and Watson).  So 1 game into this season, you switched from that to "I knew he wasn't the guy"?!

 

image.thumb.png.9961a2cfc6a9cadabe1db2bb628e9de1.png

 

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And to reply to the OP, I haven't given up on Sam.  I still think he'll be good (though it will likely be somewhere else).

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8 hours ago, Maxman said:

He needed to take a huge step forward this year and he hasn't. I think he will be okay, he needs to go somewhere else and get away from the QB whisperer Gase.

If he could sit behind Big Ben, Brees or Rivers for a year he would be good to go. Too much to overcome here and he just hasn't been good enough.

 Agreed.  My biggest concern about him would be if he loses confidence (due to being with this trainwreck of a HC and team).  I don't think that's happened and I hope it doesn't for his sake.  Sam seems like a good kid and I'll root for him if he goes elsewhere (as long as it doesn't hurt the Jets chances).

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11 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Going into this season, you had Sam as the 4th best QB in the AFC (behind Mahomes, LJ and Watson).  So 1 game into this season, you switched from that to "I knew he wasn't the guy"?!

Yes.  His play proved to me what some of you were telling me all summer and I refused to believe.  That Buffalo game made me a believer.  He should have come out sharp as a knife after 3 months at Jordan Palmer's House of Quarterbacks and he couldn't hit the side of a barn. 

Thread asks for the tipping point; the Buffalo game tipped me.  From there, it was his lack of passion, lack of fundamentals, and more injuries.  He's a dumber Chad Pennington.  He's a lesser Mark Sanchez.

SAR I

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10 hours ago, BroadwayRay said:

As we come upon another butt fumble anniversary, I was thinking ...

When did you become firmly convinced Darnold wasn’t the answer? For me, it was the New England game last year. Up until then, I saw enough good intermixed with the bad to keep me hopeful that he could become the franchise QB I envisioned when the Jets drafted him. That all changed with that one mind-boggling horror show of a game. It had nothing to do with the “ghosts.” It just became obvious to me he didn’t have the instincts and the football IQ to get it done. 

I haven't reached that point yet. I want to see what he does with the three receivers and the simplified blocking scheme we have been using the last 2 games first. Book is not closed on Sam TBH

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19 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Yes.  His play proved to me what some of you were telling me all summer and I refused to believe.  That Buffalo game made me a believer.  He should have come out sharp as a knife after 3 months at Jordan Palmer's House of Quarterbacks and he couldn't hit the side of a barn. 

Thread asks for the tipping point; the Buffalo game tipped me.  From there, it was his lack of passion, lack of fundamentals, and more injuries.  He's a dumber Chad Pennington.  He's a lesser Mark Sanchez.

SAR I

Huh?  We won the Buffalo game.

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9 hours ago, LIJetsFan said:

For me is was year 3 and he still hadn't learned the throw the ball away or to set protection pre-snap, and his deep ball seemed worse rather than better.  

I was trying to figure out a response, then I re-read this post . It is perfect. 👍

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Frankly the minute it became apparent that Lawrence might be a reality.  IMO darnold hasn’t had the protection nor has he had good wide receivers in the games he has played.  Has he even played a game with Perriman, Mims, and crowder on the field at the same time? Add to that the leaky oline and the shoulder injury it’s a wonder he can still do the job.  I know it sounds like excuses and to a degree it is.  But it does underscore the need for any QBs to have enough pieces around him.  The jets aren’t there yet.

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1 hour ago, Integrity28 said:

Yea, when the built-in excuses (regardless of what they are) have to be conjured over and over, then it becomes an exercise of recognition really...

We've had to do this repeatedly with so many players and coaches over the years. 

He needs weaponz... he’s playing out of position... if we had a pass rush, then xyz would be better... he only focuses on the defense... he doesn’t have his guys... he handpicked his guys... 

At some point we have to discern between normal mmqb hand-wringing and excuses for under-qualified players and coaches.

Frankly, I like Sam. However, he’s not very good right now - and we’ve made the prospect of him becoming good worse by setting him up to fail. 

I reached my tipping point when we hired Gase. I knew right then that Sam would eventually suffer being run out of town, as Gase does a better job manipulating his bosses than developing talent. See: getting Mac fired.

It became clearer when I realized Trevor Lawrence and a clean slate coaching staff was in reach.

The excuse is a dilemma though. We always use the excuse about coaching. That's part to blame. The FO is trash. Every year we say omg we'll be first pick let's get the QB. 

How do we know trevor won't be like darnold because of the FO and JD not building around him. 

They did the same with sanchez, that team was only built to run. 

This team can't even take the best QB. You put tom brady, mahomes, brees on this team and their passer rating drops significantly. 

I don't know about JD yet because it's a weird year. Let's see if he starts building this team. 

I honestly believe it has to do with everyone above the players. As you see Robbie is doing better in carolina. Leonard williams is having a decent year. But on our team these players were 2nd thoughts. Robbie only ran vertical and they never let darnold open up past 20 yards. 

Even westoff said they did that with sanchez. 10 yard passes because they didn't trust him. 

Unless coaching, scouting changes, I am not excited about the off season. 

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The Dolphins game in Year 1 with 4 INTs planted the seed. The ghosts game turned it into a real fear. The backfoot INT against the Bills and running out of bounds this year blew any lingering hope out.

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Two moments:

1) He ran out of bounds to take a loss instead of throwing an incomplete pass. Then possibly only a few plays later was fading to his left and threw a duck into the middle of the field off his back foot that got picked off. At that point I accepted that he'll make some stunning plays to keep you intrigued, but I just felt like he was fools gold. Taking everything into context and there's a lot: roster, coaching, wr injuries, new oline, covid plagued off season. Yet, I feel like it's time to move on. I hope he lights it up the last few games and the Jets don't need to draft another QB, but I'm not confident of that happening. Let's go Jags!

2) Old man Joe came in and starting flinging it around with generally good results. Yes, he has the benefit of being a vet coming in mid season as injured players (WRs in particular) returned to the lineup, and maybe Sam will look a lot better now too. However, the offense hasn't looked like it was getting in it's own way as it did with Sam at QB at times. As others have shown, there are a variety of videos showing Sam missing wide open guys this season so it wasn't necessarily poor wr play by the backups or a bad oline. This kind of reinforced how I felt about moment 1 above. So I hope Sam shows us otherwise, but I've moved onto accepting the Jets will be picking another first round qb in a few months. I at least have some faith since this draft (Becton, Mims, Davis) is looking better than previous drafts. The priorities seem better while there were some weird picks.

 

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58 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Huh?  We won the Buffalo game.

Two years ago we beat the Bills but didn't get the win.  This year we lost to the Bills and didn't get the win.

The point all along was the level of play on the field.  Sometimes the better team loses.  That happened in '19, not '20.

SAR I

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5 hours ago, TeddEY said:

 

 

I hated us picking Darnold.  But this was also going to be my answer, too.  Watching that clip is all you ever need to know about the guy.  His inexperience in college shows inability to read a defense, which if you look was pretty vanilla right there with the corner in standard--nothing fancy/confusing--position.  We also see what has plagued him/us these last three years:  panicking if even a mild rush is present, and throwing across his body, as well as  loss of possession due to INTs or fumbles which constantly result in being down a score.

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My tipping point is every flicking game he misses because of his frailty and we have to rely on either a over the hill guy or a guy that's not ready. He is "Mr Glass" and can't stay on the field to get better. Say what you want about Sanchez but at least he played.

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My tipping point was his first shoulder injury this year when he held the ball too long with a wide open receiver right in front of him. He just doesn’t seem to be able to process information quick enough.

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9 hours ago, GreekJet said:

You probably would have been done with Josh Allen after his first two years as well. Look at him now. 
 

It was too early to write him off after 2018 and 2019. 

Allen was better from his rookie year and showed more potential.

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the day he got Mono. i mean who gets Mono? what stupid reason os he going to miss a game next for....chicken pox .. ingrown toe nail...and sure enough hes proven to be injury prone. 

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4 hours ago, GKnight83 said:

I will let you know next year.  Barring a trade of Darnold or Morgan actually showing any promise whatsoever, Sam starts even if we draft another QB in the 1st round.

So, if we're at 1 or 2 overall, your take is that Darnold is starting over Lawrence/Fields?

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13 hours ago, BroadwayRay said:

As we come upon another butt fumble anniversary, I was thinking ...

When did you become firmly convinced Darnold wasn’t the answer? For me, it was the New England game last year. Up until then, I saw enough good intermixed with the bad to keep me hopeful that he could become the franchise QB I envisioned when the Jets drafted him. That all changed with that one mind-boggling horror show of a game. It had nothing to do with the “ghosts.” It just became obvious to me he didn’t have the instincts and the football IQ to get it done. 

After the 1st game

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1 hour ago, hamat711 said:

Allen was better from his rookie year and showed more potential.

Lol, no. Darnold showed more potential his rookie season, and was also better statistically.  

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14 hours ago, pdxgreen said:

When I realized that "But he's only 22 years old" was the lamest excuse in the world.  And I was saying it after every bad game.

source.gif.a8c7bbcfe582baa15c575cad97a73d97.gif

defo ghost game.

after playing well vs Dallas the week b4, to play perhaps the worst game i have ever seen ANY QB EVER PLAY?

4 draft picks!!!! gahhhhh!!!!!

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13 hours ago, Maxman said:

He needed to take a huge step forward this year and he hasn't. I think he will be okay, he needs to go somewhere else and get away from the QB whisperer Gase.

If he could sit behind Big Ben, Brees or Rivers for a year he would be good to go. Too much to overcome here and he just hasn't been good enough.

for me its insane to think Pitts would even kick the tires. they are about WINNING, not propping up sh*t QBs

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1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

So, if we're at 1 or 2 overall, your take is that Darnold is starting over Lawrence/Fields?

Yes, at least at the beginning of the season.  I would expect to see the new QB somewhere near mid-season.

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7 hours ago, Warfish said:

I'm split.

I never believed in Darnold the way most here at JN did.  I was a Darnold doubter from the first moment.

Yet today, I'm far less "firmly convinced" that all his problems are him and him alone than many here at JN.

I appreciate he's likely gone, but personally I think it's a shame we only ever got to see him here on horrible teams under the worst Head Coaches possible.  He probably IS the problem, but it would have been nice to see him with a legit Head Coach and on a team with some legit talent.

Personally, since we own him another year, I wouldn't trade him or cut him.  Even if we draft TL or Fields or whomever.

I fire Gase, he's horrific, he will forever be my most hated Jet staffperson.  And I let Darnold compete against whomever we draft in a fair and open competition.  Winner starts.  Loser backs up for 2021.  Having two QB's is not a bad thing.  And if Darnold sucks then too, then you don't resign him and let him walk.  Easy peasy.

Sam IS A B/U level QB. So retaining as a b/u isntthe worst idea

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