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Mel Kiper: Jets should trade #2 pick and keep Darnold


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3 minutes ago, y2k8 said:

Everyone here is so worried about restarting the clock - if so, why waste the first 2 years of a rookie contract on the 2021 season that will be a train wreck anyway?

I think you have a faulty premise - Darnold is a big part of why the team is bad. He's not the only part but he doesn't pass the metric or eye test.

A rising tide lifts all boats. Better QB and you'll see the offensive weapons aren't exactly as bad as they've looked before, the OL will be bolstered in FA/draft, they'll have money to fill in spots.

If the Jets get Lawrence I think it's highly likely they'll win 7-8 games next year with a couple of shrewd moves.

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51 minutes ago, genot said:

The DNA evidence against O.J was overwhelming, but when you put the evidence to the test in the trial, it became very suspect. On the surface yea, Darnold hasn't been impressive. When you look at all the reasons why he hasn't been, you begin to think that things very well could be different with a real HC, and a more talented and STABLE supporting cast

  Darnold would be acquitted of being an elite NFL QB even if they switched his urine sample with Johny Unitas.

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12 minutes ago, genot said:

Thats not what im saying. A cursory analysis of Sam would lead you to believe he' s not very good. When you delve deeper, you realize the issues go way beyond what the QBs capabilities are. Miller's.txt

A cursory analysis? Maybe.

My "cursory analysis" is watching the guy play in his third year and comparing his performance to a large sampling of other NFL QBs each week with Sunday ticket. My "cursory analysis" suggests he sucks. If you have some alternative (more thorough?) analysis that suggests otherwise, please do tell. 

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1 minute ago, Biggs said:

  Darnold would be acquitted of being an elite NFL QB even if they switched his urine sample with Johny Unitas.

Thats your view not mine. People need to read Matt Miller's article on players anonymously talking about changes needing to be made, with Darnold not being one of them. 

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9 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

A cursory analysis? Maybe.

My "cursory analysis" is watching the guy play in his third year and comparing his performance to a large sampling of other NFL QBs each week with Sunday ticket. My "cursory analysis" suggests he sucks. If you have some alternative (more thorough?) analysis that suggests otherwise, please do tell. 

The dozen or more teams that would jump at the chance, to trade for him It's not tennis. It' s football. QB's aren't single-handedly responsible for winning football games. Even with a world of talent around them.If Douglas listened to some of the posters on this board , QW, wouldn't be here. Of, Leo was a jag. Really. He has Dexter Lawrence taking the heat off him and he's playing at a pro bowl level. He went to a pro bowl here when he had Wilkerson taking the attention away from him. Douglas is going to the best thing for the long term future of this team. That could mean trading down, building around Darnold , and drafting talent on defense

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4 minutes ago, genot said:

Thats your view not mine. People need to read Matt Miller's article on players anonymously talking about changes needing to be made, with Darnold not being one of them. 

Changes need to be made no matter who the QB is.  There is still no evidence that Darnold is any more than a floundering prospect at this point.  I would be skeptical about what you read.  There's a lot of money involved in pumping up Darnold's value.  Someone is going to be right and wrong about Darnold but right now he's a prospect who's first contract is running out.

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4 minutes ago, genot said:

Thats your view not mine. People need to read Matt Miller's article on players anonymously talking about changes needing to be made, with Darnold not being one of them. 

Maybe, but you aren't going to convince people that Sam is good until we consistently see it for ourselves on the field. Sam doesn't pass the "eye test." 

Now, this is where people revert to "the Jets ruined him" argument. Maybe, maybe not. The thing is, it doesn't really matter. Nothing changes the fact that he is entering the last year of his rookie deal and we have to make a decision on him sooner than later. Hence, the other big problem for Sam is that replacing him with a guy on a rookie contract becomes economically attractive. 

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4 minutes ago, genot said:

The dozen or more teams that would jump at the chance, to trade for him It's not tennis. It' s football. QB's aren't single-handedly responsible for winning football games. Even with a world of talent around them.

Maybe. I guess we'll find out what the trade market is for him this offseason. 

Also, my comment had nothing to do with his team's record. It's about watching him play and comparing his individual performances to those of this peers on a weekly basis. 

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18 minutes ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

I think you have a faulty premise - Darnold is a big part of why the team is bad. He's not the only part but he doesn't pass the metric or eye test.

A rising tide lifts all boats. Better QB and you'll see the offensive weapons aren't exactly as bad as they've looked before, the OL will be bolstered in FA/draft, they'll have money to fill in spots.

If the Jets get Lawrence I think it's highly likely they'll win 7-8 games next year with a couple of shrewd moves.

It's not a flawed premise, just a difference of opinion on 1. the ability of Darnold and 2. what needs to be prioritized.

For me, I want an above average HC and staff (we have not had one since Rex if not Parcells) and as many ballers as we can get, especially on the O line.

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3 minutes ago, y2k8 said:

It's not a flawed premise, just a difference of opinion on 1. the ability of Darnold and 2. what needs to be prioritized.

For me, I want an above average HC and staff (we have not had one since Rex if not Parcells) and as many ballers as we can get, especially on the O line.

Why do you think Darnold is good? He's statistically one of the worst QBs in the NFL, plus he can't stay healthy.

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7 minutes ago, y2k8 said:

It's not a flawed premise, just a difference of opinion on 1. the ability of Darnold and 2. what needs to be prioritized.

For me, I want an above average HC and staff (we have not had one since Rex if not Parcells) and as many ballers as we can get, especially on the O line.

The problem is, it is a flawed premise. 

Basically, you aren't acknowledging (or accounting for) the fact that consistently poor QB play is part of the reason the team is bad. 

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40 minutes ago, y2k8 said:

Well, this team hasn't with current coaches.

And again, my point isn't that they should not try to replace him, it's that the team is still in early rebuild. I'd rather trade out, get more #1 picks (maybe use a late one on a QB) and stock this team with talent quickly. Everyone here is so worried about restarting the clock - if so, why waste the first 2 years of a rookie contract on the 2021 season that will be a train wreck anyway?

Ahh, there it is again. 

This is the issue with your premise. What we are telling you is that 2021 won't be a train wreck with above average QB play. That's what you don't seem to account for. 

In other words, a basic way to improve is to upgrade the most important position on the field. 

 

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11 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Maybe. I guess we'll find out what the trade market is for him this offseason. 

Also, my comment had nothing to do with his team's record. It's about watching him play and comparing his individual performances to those of this peers on a weekly basis. 

No TE, as part of the offense, which wasn't the case his rookie year. Average talent at best on the offensive line without having any time to work together as a group, because of covid and injuries. Injuries at WR, with no pre- season to develop chemistry. These aren't excuses. They're real issues that affect a quarterbacks ability to perform at a high level.

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4 minutes ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

Why do you think Darnold is good? He's statistically one of the worst QBs in the NFL, plus he can't stay healthy.

I think Sam can be good and has been failed by the organization - but that's irrelevant to the point. 

I'd rather use #2 pick and the draft capitalit can bring to stock the team with talent and then address QB either later in the draft or next year. If new coach thinks Sam is garbage, get rid of him and sign another veteran. Lots of QBs are going to be looking for landing spots next year.

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3 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Ahh, there it is again. 

This is the issue with your premise. What we are telling you is that 2021 won't be a train wreck with above average QB play. That's what you don't seem to account for. 

In other words, a basic way to improve is to upgrade the most important position on the field. 

 

Well then that's the problem with your premise, because it will be,.

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4 minutes ago, genot said:

These aren't excuses. They're real issues that affect a quarterbacks ability to perform at a high level.

Agreed, but should he be ranked 31st or 32nd in the league? In his third year? With over 30 starts under his belt? 

Sam hasn't just been average to slightly below average - he's been bad. 

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2 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

 

Sam hasn't just been average to slightly below average - he's been bad. 

It's bizarre to me. You hear all the time around here how Lamar Jackson sucks, Mitchell Trubisky sucks, Brady now sucks, Baker Mayfield sucks.... yet they're all 10 to 20 times better than Darnold.

 

Stop grading Jet QBs on a curve. Darnold is awful. 

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4 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Agreed, but should he be ranked 31st or 32nd in the league? In his third year? With over 30 starts under his belt? 

Sam hasn't just been average to slightly below average - he's been bad. 

Statically the difference between him ranked at 20 or at 32 isn't that great. Would Herndon being used in the passing game elevated those stats. Yes. Would we have won more games. Probably not. Herndon not being used as a receiving threat has really hurt Darnold. He's a mismatch that should have been utilized. Also is probably the best receiver we have gaining more yards after the catch.

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2 minutes ago, kmnj said:

I love when folks says sam is not a good qb and then say the jets should trade him for a high pick and lots of teams would want him lol

so he sucks but teams will be lining up to offer high picks for him..... 

 

I think this is a strawman, at least on JN. 

Most people who think Darnold sucks on this board seem to think we would be lucky to get a second round pick for him

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33 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I think this is a strawman, at least on JN. 

Most people who think Darnold sucks on this board seem to think we would be lucky to get a second round pick for him

a second round pick for a guy that sucks? we have lots of guys that suck can they all be turned into second round picks

 

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40 minutes ago, kmnj said:

I love when folks says sam is not a good qb and then say the jets should trade him for a high pick and lots of teams would want him lol

so he sucks but teams will be lining up to offer high picks for him..... 

 

Reminds me of the same people saying TL will refuse to play for the NY Jets. 

Bad teams usually get the #1 pick in the NFL Draft. 

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45 minutes ago, genot said:

Statically the difference between him ranked at 20 or at 32 isn't that great. Would Herndon being used in the passing game elevated those stats. Yes. Would we have won more games. Probably not. Herndon not being used as a receiving threat has really hurt Darnold. He's a mismatch that should have been utilized. Also is probably the best receiver we have gaining more yards after the catch.

Where are you getting this from? 

Darnold is currently ranked 33rd in QBR and Lamar Jackson is currently ranked 20th. Compare Sam and Lamar this season:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr

I'm not trying to be offensive at all, but you guys are downright delusional about Sam at this point. Ya'll are just making stuff up now. 

And not using Herndon more is an excuse now? Really? Have you watched Herndon this year? There was a stretch of games there where Herndon had a killer drop or fumble almost every time he touched the ball. Come on! 

Also, you guys have sooooo many excuses. What about the other countless litany of excuses other QBs could name? You guys act like Darnold is the only QB in the NFL who has had to deal with adversity - whether it be injured WRs, bad OL play, bad coaching, etc. 

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8 minutes ago, kmnj said:

a second round pick for a guy that sucks? we have lots of guys that suck can they all be turned into second round picks

 

It's because of the positional value. 

The Cardinals got a 2nd and 5th for Rosen - who they thought sucked. 

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if we couldn't get better than a 3rd or 4th for Sam. 

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8 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Where are you getting this from? 

Darnold is currently ranked 33rd in QBR and Lamar Jackson is currently ranked 20th. Compare Sam and Lamar this season:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr

I'm not trying to be offensive at all, but you guys are downright delusional about Sam at this point. Ya'll are just making stuff up now. 

And not using Herndon more is an excuse now? Really? Have you watched Herndon this year? There was a stretch of games there where Herndon had a killer drop or fumble almost every time he touched the ball. Come on! 

Also, you guys have sooooo many excuses. What about the other countless litany of excuses other QBs could name? You guys act like Darnold is the only QB in the NFL who has had to deal with adversity - whether it be injured WRs, bad OL play, bad coaching, etc. 

Good points. Herndon had a few drops. Not good. You must admit he hasn't been a part of the gameplan because he is a very good blocker, and that is another indictment of Gase and our offensive line. If he isn't involved in the passing game because they think he stinks. Let's trade down and draft Pitts. Herndon looked real good as a rookie. Has he lost his skills already

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3 hours ago, Ex-Rex said:

If you build the team first you will never get a franchise QB. They go very high in the draft and 8-8 teams don't draft high (or low) enough to get the best ones. Then you are stuck with FA washouts. 

You actually have it backwards. Most of the successful Qbs taken this decade were taken late or by playoff teams.

Russ - Third Round

Dak - Fourth Round

Josh Allen - Playoff team traded up for him

Mahomes - Playoff team traded up for him

Watson - Playoff team traded up for him

Lamar Jackson - Last pick of the first round

Carr - Second Round

Kirk - Third Round

Jimmy G -Second Round

 

Goff, Tannehill and maybe Kyler are the only exceptions. The rookies and second other second year players are too early to call.

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1 hour ago, y2k8 said:

I think Sam can be good and has been failed by the organization - but that's irrelevant to the point. 

I'd rather use #2 pick and the draft capitalit can bring to stock the team with talent and then address QB either later in the draft or next year. If new coach thinks Sam is garbage, get rid of him and sign another veteran. Lots of QBs are going to be looking for landing spots next year.

What are you expecting for the #2 pick? Suitors would likely be Dallas at 4, Philly at 6 and Carolina at 7

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19 hours ago, Beerfish said:

You do not even have to stick with darnold after another year, there are good QBs every year in the draft.

Build the team then draft the QB.

Now of course most people feel that lawrence is so so good that you have to take him.  I do not feel he is that good and is not a must have.

Why the **** is it always either or?  Do both.  Build the team and always try to get the best QB.  I will never understand this one or the other bullsh*t.  I feel like when I watch my friend eat 5 big macs because he is "in a bulking phase and will cut in April."

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20 minutes ago, Waka Flocka Flacco said:

People in Uzbekistan think you take jocksniffing to levels ordinarily only approached by scat porn.

Your a jerkoff. Are one of the 12 teams that would trade for Darnold jocksniffers.Perhaps they know something you don't know. If Darnold is here next year, Douglas and the new HC presumably would be jock sniffers too.You peobably spend everyday watching you tube highlights of Trevor. Who's the jocksniffer. Me or you.

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20 hours ago, Beerfish said:

You do not even have to stick with darnold after another year, there are good QBs every year in the draft.

Build the team then draft the QB.

Now of course most people feel that lawrence is so so good that you have to take him.  I do not feel he is that good and is not a must have.

That quote may someday adorn a poster's signature to remind you of what you just said.....

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