Josh Allen evolving while Darnold regresses...

[Dunnie]

Let me ask you this. 
We all remember Darnold looked promising in his rookie season and we remember Allen looked like a RB playing QB. How do you Allen does with his best WR being Braxton Barrios and Crowder and Gase as his HC? 

Or Mims , Herndon, Perriman, Bell, Hogan ...

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[hamat711]

4 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Let me ask you this. 

We all remember Darnold looked promising in his rookie season and we remember Allen looked like a RB playing QB. How do you Allen does with his best WR being Braxton Barrios and Crowder and Gase as his HC? 

Allen did much better last year with similar talent.

Beasley and Brown vs Crowder and Anderson.

The Jets offensive line was better  than believed but Darnold has poor pocket presence unlike Allen.

[Sammybighead]

In fairness to everyone here and the rest of the NFL, it’s probably extremely rare that a QB with the accuracy issues Allen had in college and the first 2 years suddenly becomes a 70% passer.

I’m not sure if Allen physically changed how he throws or if it’s more a testament to the system put around him (I think more the later). 

That said, even during the draft, everyone knew he had the highest upside but were terrified he’d never overcome his accuracy issues. There was always the chance if he did, he’d be the best of the bunch. Unfortunately that scenario is playing out.

Frankly, I’m not sure he’s totally fixed his accuracy. Deep passing was still off last night but he’s done wonders for his short and mid-range game (again, not sure if it’s the system more or him).

[jetophile]

If I were The Boot I would see where the chips fall after this season and that's it. Make plans to get a Master's Degree in an area of interest (if necessary), couple that with career plans for life after football, invest well, bank my shekels, feel good about life. Heath Schuler turned out pretty OK. 

Not panning out in his original, chosen, profession doesn't qualify as a failure in life by any stretch. If Vernon Gholston handled his windfall well, who's laughing now? Not me, that's for sure.

The problem as I see it is players who succumb to injury/off the field issues/multiple arrests who have no other life skills other than being on a football field are doomed to drown. They're truly lost. Robby Anderson is a classic example of someone who could've wound up in an untenable situation because - not trying to be mean here - I'm not convinced he's even functionally literate. I stand by my opinion that better life counseling should be in place for at risk players. They're not adults in the classic sense, so it's really protection from themselves.

Anyway, we hear about the indigence, bankruptcy, other people bleeding players dry (sponges, "financial advisors") far more often, but that's because it's truly far more prevalent than the success stories, and not just because people are rubbernecking at the scene of an accident. Two major success stories that really stick out are Leland Melvin and John Urschel.  Developing better life skills and mentoring should be a mandatory pre-requisite in college. I wish Sam Darnold luck, and I get the kneejerk indictment over his football skills, but if he gets out I wouldn't call him dumb or a failure. Go live in exile on Elba or something, not a bad gig. I'm sure he can re-invent himself. I'm just really sad that I seriously got my hopes up - and I'm talking wayyyyy up there - because at the end of the day, it's all about me.  I never thought at 56 I'd still be waiting for Godot. 

EDIT & P.S. I don't really care about Josh Allen. It doesn't help me or change the situation. 

[More Cowbell]

Just now, hamat711 said:

Allen did much better last year with similar talent.

Beasley and Brown vs Crowder and Anderson.

The Jets offensive line was better  than believed but Darnold has poor pocket presence unlike Allen.

Dude, you are delusional. Gase turned Anderson into garbage. He had over 900 yards under Bowles and looked like he was a breakout deep threat until Gase got a hold of him and he became Lam Jones. Crowder was the only player that even resembled a WR on the team last season. And how do you have pocket presence when there is no pocket. Did you even watch the games last season? 

Similar talent? The Bill's were loaded last season. Cole Beasley, John Brown, Tyler Kroft and LeSean McCoy were a hell of a lot better than anything we put on the field last season. 

[jgb]

21 minutes ago, hamat711 said:

Allen did much better last year with similar talent.

Beasley and Brown vs Crowder and Anderson.

The Jets offensive line was better  than believed but Darnold has poor pocket presence unlike Allen.

 

10 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Dude, you are delusional. Gase turned Anderson into garbage. He had over 900 yards under Bowles and looked like he was a breakout deep threat until Gase got a hold of him and he became Lam Jones. Crowder was the only player that even resembled a WR on the team last season. And how do you have pocket presence when there is no pocket. Did you even watch the games last season? 

Similar talent? The Bill's were loaded last season. Cole Beasley, John Brown, Tyler Kroft and LeSean McCoy were a hell of a lot better than anything we put on the field last season. 

Allen is in a much better situation than Darnold. No one can credibly argue otherwise. But that still doesn't erase or diminish from the fact that Allen is balling. 

[Lupz27]

7 hours ago, Slikmojet! said:

This is too painful to watch, Allen is destined to be a top 5 QB in this league while Darnold is coming close to getting a one way ticket to the CFL like his buddy Rosen. Many believed Allen would never fix his accuracy issues but he has become a 70 percent passer while our very own Sammy Pickinpaw has trouble completing 50 percent of his.

Who here still thinks Darnold is better than Allen?

 

Swap where they got drafted and Allen would be on his way out the league and Darnold would be having threesomes with half the student body of Buffalo U

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Lupz27 said:

Swap where they got drafted and Allen would be on his way out the league and Darnold would be having threesomes with half the student body of Buffalo U

And Darnold would be missing games with scabies instead of mono

[munchmemory]

I made a point of watching Allen last night.  It was obvious that as cliche as it sounds, the game had slowed down for him.  He calmly looked over the coverages and made the correct reads.   Sadly for us, Darnold still looks skittish and unable to figure out defenses.

[ScarletKnight89]

Darnold has not delivered. But if you don't think coaching plays a role in a QB's ability to "make it" in this league or not, you aren't paying attention. A Head Coach is so important to a QB's development. Look no further than what the Bills have done with Josh Allen. 

Maybe Darnold will figure it out somewhere else, I guess we'll see.

Whether we end up with pick 1 and Trevor, or pick 2 and Fields, we first have to nail this Head Coach hire. 

[slimjasi]

6 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Swap where they got drafted and Allen would be on his way out the league and Darnold would be having threesomes with half the student body of Buffalo U

So does this mean that you think Todd Blackledge would have been a hall of famer if he got drafted by Don Shula and the Dolphins instead of KC? And I guess Marino would have been a JAG? 

IMO, this is an absurd post. 

You aren't putting enough onus/responsibility on the player.

 

[DonCorleone]

7 hours ago, Slikmojet! said:

This is too painful to watch, Allen is destined to be a top 5 QB in this league while Darnold is coming close to getting a one way ticket to the CFL like his buddy Rosen. Many believed Allen would never fix his accuracy issues but he has become a 70 percent passer while our very own Sammy Pickinpaw has trouble completing 50 percent of his.

Who here still thinks Darnold is better than Allen?

 

So the question then becomes, why do the Jets keep trotting Darnold out there? 

What can he possibly do which would undo 9 horrific games? The Jets know what he is there is NOTHING that he can show in 3 games which can give anyone reason to hope. Why NOT look at James Morgan to see what he has? I mean, if Seattle actually caught the 3 gift interception which they should have had, this game could have ended in the 50's or even 60's point range. How much worse can ANYONE do? I am sorry for being long winded, I simply don't get it. 

[More Cowbell]

20 minutes ago, jgb said:

 

Allen is in a much better situation than Darnold. No one can credibly argue otherwise. But that still doesn't erase or diminish from the fact that Allen is balling. 

Allen has made the most of his situation. No denying that. 

[jgb]

7 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Allen has made the most of his situation. No denying that. 

Perfect case of marrying scheme with a QB's strengths.

[Thai Jet]

2 hours ago, Matt39 said:

From a physical standpoint Allen may be the most gifted QB the league has ever seen. He has Marino’s arm and then some plus he runs like a tight end.The throws he can make are unreal.

I  watched a lot of Allen's college games, hey it was 11pm here and there was football on.  The big reason I liked Allen,while he was at Wyoming , was his heart and desire, I'd watch those late night games Allen played and all I saw was a big armed kid who would do anything to win. He'd sacrifice his body on a run just to get a 1st down, anything it took. I said here at the time that he had little help from his wide receivers and that a lot of his passes were long bombs which by nature reduce your accuracy percentage. He's gotten some great coaching with the Bills and has improved every year. I'm left wondering if he had been drafted here and Sam went to Buffalo how things would have turned out. Hmmmm. 

[DetroitRed]

Josh Allen is ok. People need to slow down. Stephon Diggs is way more valuable. He elevates Allen incredibly


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[Matt39]

Just now, Thai Jet said:

I  watched a lot of Allen's college games, hey it was 11pm here and there was football on.  The big reason I liked Allen,while he was at Wyoming , was his heart and desire, I'd watch those late night games Allen played and all I saw was a big armed kid who would do anything to win. He'd sacrifice his body on a run just to get a 1st down, anything it took. I said here at the time that he had little help from his wide receivers and that a lot of his passes were long bombs which by nature reduce your accuracy percentage. He's gotten some great coaching with the Bills and has improved every year. I'm left wondering if he had been drafted here and Sam went to Buffalo how things would have turned out. Hmmmm. 

Yeah he’s nails too. I didn’t think he’d be able to make up for the accuracy stuff. But the dude is all football so it’s good to see it paying off. His talent is pretty ridiculous.

[DetroitRed]

I said it last year with Lamar Jackson. Allen is better than Jackson, but he has not shown to be anything near a great Qb


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[ZachEY]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

Perfect case of marrying scheme with a QB's strengths.

Hopefully we can find a QB with some “strengths.”

[jgb]

Just now, TeddEY said:

Hopefully we can find a QB with some “strengths.”

Darnold has strengths -- improvising, outside the pocket play -- the problems are two-fold:

1. Those strengths are not enough to be a FQB; and

2. Gase is terrible at leveraging those strengths. Ask like 5 guys from his Dolphins tenure lol.

[Sonny Werblin]

Quote

Josh Allen evolving while Darnold regresses...

We see it. You know who also sees it..... ? Sam Darnold, Darnold's Agent, Jordan Palmer, JD .... and pretty much everyone in the football world. You can blame coaching but I don't think it matters any longer because the destroyer of every elite athlete has crept into Sam's mind... Doubt. Sam no longer believes in his own ability. The kid who threw 6 TDs to 1 Interception on his way to a 99 QBR in the final four games of his rookie season is gone. He's skittish and lack confidence in everything he does. 

Ironically, Josh Allen is one of the few people with the ability to help Sam gain his confidence back. They'd been through the same type of experience with wildly different results.  Josh Allen needs to be in Sam's ear this off season telling him, "Hey, we practice together countless hours, I have no doubt you can be as successful as me. You were just dealt a crappy hand. If you had my O line, Skill players, Coaching and Defense, you'd be right there with me." And Sam needs a new team, new coaches and new players around him. It can't be new players and coaches with the Jets because the waft of his demise permeates the building. He needs a new franchise which will be free to bad mouth the Jets for not getting him the proper coaching and support. He also, IMO, he would benefit from a season on the bench watching a veteran on a team that employs and an actual QB coach. Darnold needs to be broken down and rebuilt. He needs to unlearn everything he has learned in the past two years. He has a chance to be one of the better comeback stories in NFL history but he needs to go to the right situation with the right coach.  

[ryu79]

3 hours ago, QB1 said:

Josh Allen is already the 4th best QB in the NFL in my eyes, just a beast.

Darnold has been broken. His confidence shattered. He threw in the towel in the second half today, afraid to throw.

I don’t blame him, I really don’t. I can’t think of a single QB in NFL history that has had a worse set of circumstances. 

I still think he is young enough and works hard enough to turn his career around in a better situation, it’s happened before (Steve Young), but that’s irrelevant to us at this point. 

Sam looks like....Josh Allen in his last year in Wyoming. Allen back then was dealing with a terrible supporting cast and mentally you could tell him both pressing and not trusting his protections, timing off, apparently, hopelessly inaccurate. Its what made everyone discount Allen's measurables and arm strength coming out of the draft and think he would bust. 

I don't know if Sam will be a success else where in this league (or if he ever would have) - but I can say this - I don't think Josh Allen would have developed the way that he has if he'd come to New York and I think THAT is what the Johnson's should be focused on. 

Sam has really struggled this year and its clear his future is elsewhere - there doesn't seem to be anything to do about it at this point - but the team cannot do this to Lawrence or whoever the next guy is.

[hamat711]

48 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Dude, you are delusional. Gase turned Anderson into garbage. He had over 900 yards under Bowles and looked like he was a breakout deep threat until Gase got a hold of him and he became Lam Jones. Crowder was the only player that even resembled a WR on the team last season. And how do you have pocket presence when there is no pocket. Did you even watch the games last season? 

Similar talent? The Bill's were loaded last season. Cole Beasley, John Brown, Tyler Kroft and LeSean McCoy were a hell of a lot better than anything we put on the field last season. 

You clearly didn’t watch the Bills.

Kroft was hurt last year and McCoy was cut before the first game.

The talent the Jets had last year was decent, but it was made worse with Gase. Everybody on that Jets O-line last year is still a starter on some team in the league right now. They aren’t great, but they have been serviceable. Shell and Beachum are actually grading out better than Fant.

Again, Darnold bails from clean pockets. Darnold has poor pocket presence and Allen has good pocket presence.

[UntouchableCrew]

Kudos to the Bills. They took an extremely gifted but extremely raw and flawed QB talent and developed him. He should be good for a very long time.

Like many, I didn't think they could do it... And I know the Jets wouldn't have done it.

[kmnj]

Just now, UntouchableCrew said:

Kudos to the Bills. They took an extremely gifted but extremely raw and flawed QB talent and developed him. He should be good for a very long time.

Like many, I didn't think they could do it... And I know the Jets wouldn't have done it.

no Joe would have surrounded him with trash wrs and trash rbs and tight ends that dont catch passes

we would be talking about Allen being a bust like the talk of Darnold being a bust

[More Cowbell]

2 minutes ago, hamat711 said:

You clearly didn’t watch the Bills.

Kroft was hurt last year and McCoy was cut before the first game.

The talent the Jets had last year was decent, but it was made worse with Gase. Everybody on that Jets O-line last year is still a starter on some team in the league right now. They aren’t great, but they have been serviceable. Shell and Beachum are actually grading out better than Fant.

Again, Darnold bails from clean pockets. Darnold has poor pocket presence and Allen has good pocket presence.

If this is your opinion I have nothing to add. IMO you are just trying to spin this. 

The talent on this team has been decimated by Idzik and Mac. There is no way to denoe that. Gradi g out better than a guy that was a backup a year ago is a pretty low bar. 

[ZachEY]

13 minutes ago, jgb said:

Darnold has strengths -- improvising, outside the pocket play -- the problems are two-fold:

1. Those strengths are not enough to be a FQB; and

2. Gase is terrible at leveraging those strengths. Ask like 5 guys from his Dolphins tenure lol.

But, are these relative strengths, or absolute strengths?  I think it's pretty clear they're relative.  Is Sam Darnold really one of the best QBs outside the pocket?  Is he better than Wilson, Rodgers, Mahommes, Murray, etc?  Or even at their level?  I don't see it.  For Darnold, I think the rolling out is obvious.  He has the athleticism to do it, and it takes away half of the field, giving him less decisions to make.  As he can't process the whole field, this is an advantage for him.  However, I'm still not sure that makes him "better" outside the pocket than anyone except in comparison to himself, inside the pocket.

As for improvisation.  I'm not even sure what that means, and is it simply a matter of him constantly bailing on the pocket and looking to make a play elsewhere?

As such, I'm not sure what there is to leverage.  Do NFL DC's really fear a guy who rolls out most plays, limiting the field he has access to?

This all sounds a lot like when we fans, and even some media, tried to sell us the notion that Chad Pennington was meaningfully better than the rest of the NFL (except, maybe, Peyton Manning), at selling the play action fake.

[Maxman]

The Bills do this really weird thing, some are referring to it as voodoo. Anyhow they have a coach that is dedicated to the QB position.

Witchcraft I tell you.

[Sonny Werblin]

50 minutes ago, munchmemory said:

I made a point of watching Allen last night.  It was obvious that as cliche as it sounds, the game had slowed down for him.  He calmly looked over the coverages and made the correct reads.   Sadly for us, Darnold still looks skittish and unable to figure out defenses.

This is the thing that bothers me most. Reading pre-snap keys is one of the many things that the coaches are supposed to be teaching a young QB. So, are they teaching it poorly (or not at all)? I don't think Sam is too stupid to learn. He had a high Wonderlic. Frankly, I am baffled. But, it would not surprise me it we learn that Gase and Logjams never treated Sam like they had to educate him "how" to be a pro QB. Gase is a "plug and play" type of coach. That is why his only real success was with veterans like Manning and Cutler.

[hamat711]

3 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

If this is your opinion I have nothing to add. IMO you are just trying to spin this. 

The talent on this team has been decimated by Idzik and Mac. There is no way to denoe that. Gradi g out better than a guy that was a backup a year ago is a pretty low bar. 

I stand by my statement. You had decent talent that was poorly coached.

 

Gase coaches teams have a track record of poor O-line play. He had a few decent lineman in Miami and the line was always the biggest issues for Miami during his tenure. 
 

 

[Icer]

Josh Allen always had a higher ceiling than Darnold, the supposed bust factor was just larger. He is making plays happen all over with his athleticism, and ridiculously good arm. I have no doubt the Bills would not be as good with Darnold under center, he doesn't have any exceptional traits like Allen.

[Sonny Werblin]

2 minutes ago, Maxman said:

The Bills do this really weird thing, some are referring to it as voodoo. Anyhow they have a coach that is dedicated to the QB position.

Witchcraft I tell you.

Is that allowed? It seems like an unfair advantage.

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

But, are these relative strengths, or absolute strengths?  I think it's pretty clear they're relative.  Is Sam Darnold really one of the best QBs outside the pocket?  Is he better than Wilson, Rodgers, Mahommes, Murray, etc?  Or even at their level?  I don't see it.  For Darnold, I think the rolling out is obvious.  He has the athleticism to do it, and it takes away half of the field, giving him less decisions to make.  As he can't process the whole field, this is an advantage for him.  However, I'm still not sure that makes him "better" outside the pocket than anyone except in comparison to himself, inside the pocket.

As for improvisation.  I'm not even sure what that means, and is it simply a matter of him constantly bailing on the pocket and looking to make a play elsewhere?

As such, I'm not sure what there is to leverage.  Do NFL DC's really fear a guy who rolls out most plays, limiting the field he has access to?

This all sounds a lot like when we fans, and even some media, tried to sell us the notion that Chad Pennington was meaningfully better than the rest of the NFL (except, maybe, Peyton Manning), at selling the play action fake.

You raise a good point about relative strengths. Yes, I'd say you are spot on. What I mean by improvisation is that he certainly seems better when playing on instinct. It's not an endorsement -- I think he is a bust and will never been a good NFL QB. My own personal theory is that he plays with no confidence from the pocket. He consistently overthrows the deep ball, for example. When he's running around, it simplifies his mental process. 

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, hamat711 said:

I stand by my statement. You had decent talent that was poorly coached.

 

Gase coaches teams have a track record of poor O-line play. He had a few decent lineman in Miami and the line was always the biggest issues for Miami during his tenure. 
 

 

I agree that with a competent HC/QB combo, our weaponz will miraculously look a whole lot better.

[KRL]

Brian Daboll's work with Allen has been amazing.  Should be on Douglas interview list