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Josh Allen evolving while Darnold regresses...


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7 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

This is the thing that bothers me most. Reading pre-snap keys is on of the many things that the coaches are supposed to be teaching a young QB. So, are they teaching it poorly (or not at all)? I don't think Sam is too stupid to learn. He had a high Wonderlic. Frankly, I am baffled. But, it would not surprise me it we learn that Gase and Logjams never treated Sam like they had to educate him "how" to be a pro QB. Gase is a "plug and play" type of coach. That is why his only real success was with veterans like Manning and Cutler.

Baffling is right.   As bad as your team's offense may be, you as a QB should still make plays and in year three not throw terrible INTs.  As others have said, Darnold's throw between the numbers to Jamal was just inexcusable.  And we continue to see him making similar mistakes week after week.

So, yeah, it's either that Sam has not been taught or he is that football/coverages dumb. 

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I still think darnold is better than allen. Allen has a team around him and an offensive line. Darnold has no team outside of a left tackle and a coach who believes that players need to build around h

I watched the game last night because of fantasy football implications.  Josh Allen is progressing at an alarming rate, and I see elite talent pestering us for the next ten years. Darnold makes me sad

If they switched places I think the results would be the same.  Buffalo built AROUND josh allen, the Jets did not. Diggs, Beasley, John Brown, Singletary - a legit defense. There isn’t a skill player

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1 hour ago, playtowinthegame said:

I'm still holding out Josh Allen pulls a Carson Wentz next season in hostile environments on the road with all the fans back, thus loses confidence and continues to force things and crap out at home.

I wouldn't hold your breathe on it. Allen is a much more physically gifted player. He's actually been the most blitzed QB in the league this season. Allen improved majorly from his rookie year to his 2nd year and he made a similar jump from year 2 to 3. He makes pre-snap adjustments at the line calling out protections and moving guys around which is even scarier than his ability to toss tacklers aside in the pocket then make a throw. He transformed his game from being a 'runner' to being a mobile pocket QB. He moves around in the pocket first, then he escapes the pocket and looks for a throw then he runs. 

I think it would take a severe injury to knock him down like Wentz to where he can't move in the pocket like he does. 

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44 minutes ago, jgb said:

You raise a good point about relative strengths. Yes, I'd say you are spot on. What I mean by improvisation is that he certainly seems better when playing on instinct. It's not an endorsement -- I think he is a bust and will never been a good NFL QB. My own personal theory is that he plays with no confidence from the pocket. He consistently overthrows the deep ball, for example. When he's running around, it simplifies his mental process. 

I know what is meant by “improvisation,” I say it more the way I did because I don’t actually think it’s a meaningful thing that contributes to winning football.  At least if that’s your headline trait.

But yes, agreed.  I’d take it one step further and say he’s right to play with no confidence, because he doesn’t know what he’s doing.  He just doesn’t get it, unfortunately, and lacks meaningful physical tools to compensate for flaws.

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2 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

I know what is meant by “improvisation,” I say it more the way I did because I don’t actually think it’s a meaningful thing that contributes to winning football.  At least if that’s your headline trait.

But yes, agreed.  I’d take it one step further and say he’s right to play with no confidence, because he doesn’t know what he’s doing.  He just doesn’t get it, unfortunately, and lacks meaningful physical tools to compensate for flaws.

NFL GMs have yet to crack the code on how to reliably evaluate the mental part necessary to play QB.

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8 minutes ago, jgb said:

NFL GMs have yet to crack the code on how to reliably evaluate the mental part necessary to play QB.

Which probably makes the already strong case against the Darnold’s and Sanchez’s of the world, who come with such limited starting experience prior to the NFL.

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5 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Which probably makes the already strong case against the Darnold’s and Sanchez’s of the world, who come with such limited starting experience prior to the NFL.

Was it Bill Parcells who had his famous college QB evaluation criteria?

Just looked it up, it was Parcells. Some are a little outdated, especially 2 and 3 but interesting nonetheless:

  1. Be a three-year starter
  2. Be a senior in college
  3. Graduate from college
  4. Start 30 games
  5. Win 23 games
  6. Post a 2:1 touchdown-to-interception ratio
  7. Compete at least 60-percent of passes thrown
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There is no question that Allen would be better on the Bills than he has on the Jets.  But Allen, despite being drafted lower, is much more talented physically and likely mentally than Darnold.  But Darnold should be better than he is.   People thought Darnold could be a Romo.  Maybe a Dalton.  I would take Bortles at his best at this point.  But he has not be developed or supported.  

We know the causes-bad ownership, bad GM, bad coaching.

Mac knew that the Jets would be getting a QB in 2017, but continued to draft Defensive BAP or just crap to prepare the roster.  Mac was not a roster builder.  He just tried to hit on picks.  He was even bad with that.  He was trying to hit on picks because his boss did not tell him to build a roster.

He trades 3 second round picks to draft Darnold, when he could have kept his picks and drafted Allen or Lamar Jackson.   For his 3rd round pick, he takes Nathan Shepherd over Orlando Brown, when he already has Henry Anderson, Leo and others.  He also takes Foley later, who was actually a great pick.  Herndon in rd 4 seemed good but overlooked the fact that he is crazy.

He picks Q the next year when he should have been drafting an offense.  He followed with Polite, one of the worst picks in recent NFL history, and a short, weak T in Edoga.  Throw in a brittle ILB.  No help for Darnold.  He helps hire Gase to develop Darnold, when Darnold was better off with Bates.  Its just a poop show.  

Douglas takes over and tries, but there is no money left.  He burns $9mm on Kalil.  

This year was the year that Douglas could have helped Darnold.  I think he tried, and could have done a little better.  Robby really hurt.  But I think Douglas realized that 2 and now 3 years of Darnold’s rookie contract were wasted.    Douglas likely knew that Gase and Dowell were not helping Darnold.  Its time to start anew, unfortunately.  Under no circumstances is Darnold a better prospect that Lawrence, and he is much cheaper over the next 4 years.   I think that is the likely the case with the next QBs available if we blow Lawrence.  I think its 50/50 we blow it.   It will be up to Douglas at that point to start IRing anyone decent. 

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You still think Darnold is better than Allen?
Allen has shown that he can play like a top 5 QB. 
Last year this argument was made for lamar jackson who though is still decent has regressed. Allen looks great this year but he is on a far superior team. Statistically you can not argue that allen is the better qb this season but I have faith darnold will be better in the long haul let's see next year what he looks like with a better team around him.

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3 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

Let me ask you this. 

We all remember Darnold looked promising in his rookie season and we remember Allen looked like a RB playing QB. How do you Allen does with his best WR being Braxton Barrios and Crowder and Gase as his HC? 

Disclaimer;   More Cowbell, I'm a Bills fan.

No one in Bills' Mafia thinks Darnold got a fair shake.  He didn't get hosed as much as Josh Rosen, but pretty close.  The issue is where the QBs are right now.  As someone who has watched every snap Allen has taken since Week 1 in his rookie season, Allen doesn't even look like the same QB.

Whether it was Allen's drive to succeed, his surrounding cast, superior coaching, or a combination of all of them, the bottom line is that he is now the second best QB in the AFC behind only Mahomes and I don't think he's hit his ceiling yet.

Darnold got screwed.  No argument there.  There is still a chance he can pull a Taneyhill next year if someone gives him a shot.  

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3 hours ago, Sammybighead said:

In fairness to everyone here and the rest of the NFL, it’s probably extremely rare that a QB with the accuracy issues Allen had in college and the first 2 years suddenly becomes a 70% passer.

I’m not sure if Allen physically changed how he throws or if it’s more a testament to the system put around him (I think more the later). 

That said, even during the draft, everyone knew he had the highest upside but were terrified he’d never overcome his accuracy issues. There was always the chance if he did, he’d be the best of the bunch. Unfortunately that scenario is playing out.

Frankly, I’m not sure he’s totally fixed his accuracy. Deep passing was still off last night but he’s done wonders for his short and mid-range game (again, not sure if it’s the system more or him).

Allen was almost 70% on intermediate passes last season. It was a huge improvement from his 1st year. This year his deep ball and short game have improved as well. 

For this season, Allen is about 50% on deep ball attempts which has at #6 so I'm not sure that observation is accurate. 

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One thing I see rarely mentioned is his internal fire.

When you watch Allen play, he looks like a man possessed. He has no problem running straight into a 350 pound linemen to get 1 more inch.

When you watch Darnold play, he looks like a very scared and very timid boy.

Its night and day.

When you combine Allen’s fire with his arm and mobility, the potential to be great is very high.

 

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2 hours ago, jgb said:

NFL GMs have yet to crack the code on how to reliably evaluate the mental part necessary to play QB.

Honestly, you don’t really know until they actually get under center and start playing real NFL games.  It’s all speculation and projection.  Some kids are capable of seeing things and some are not.  Some stay confident and some lose it easily.   You simply won’t know until you get them in and under center. 

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2 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Honestly, you don’t really know until they actually get under center and start playing real NFL games.  It’s all speculation and projection.  Some kids are capable of seeing things and some are not.  Some stay confident and some lose it easily.   You simply won’t know until you get them in and under center. 

Yep. It's why Gardner Minshew can look like he belongs while Darnold is seeing ghosts. Reminds me of the quote from Moneyball, albeit about a different sport:

Image

 

All more reason to keep taking shots early, middle and late in drafts until you find the guy.

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11 minutes ago, DetroitRed said:

The first 5 drives for the Bills were all punts and turnovers. Really impressive . This is Allen’s greatness

 

 


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Bye bye Rams, Seattle, Raiders, 49ers, Dolphins, Steelers.  These are all teams the Bills have beaten this season.  Is that 'really impressive'?  Allen's greatness?  Because, I mean, even the HOF QB's never had stretches of games where they were out of snyc or getting outplayed by an aggressive defense right?? *SMH*  Allen has so far to go before he reaches his ceiling it's fantastic to be a Bills fan right now.  I can't wait to see him make another huge jump from year 3 to year 4.  He just keeps getting better and better each year......  You get to deal with the next Brady of the AFC EAST for the next 10-15 years.  Enjoy the ride amigo!!!!  Ohh yeah....That Tua guy in Miami looks pretty good himself as a rookie.  Cheers!!

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I never thought Darnold was anything special but the real place the Jets failed him was not getting him a weapon to utilize. Allen is way better than Darnold in every aspect of the game but the Bills FO knew they needed to surround him with offensive talent. That 1+ they traded to get Diggs paid immediate dividends.

 

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2 hours ago, munchmemory said:

Baffling is right.   As bad as your team's offense may be, you as a QB should still make plays and in year three not throw terrible INTs.  As others have said, Darnold's throw between the numbers to Jamal was just inexcusable.  And we continue to see him making similar mistakes week after week.

So, yeah, it's either that Sam has not been taught or he is that football/coverages dumb. 

Yeah, thing is in todays NFL with the CBA rules, the coaches on the team really don't have much time to work with the young QB's.

The real coaching of QB's is often left to private QB coaches.  In Darnold's case it's the same guy for both Allen, and Darnold, Jordon Palmer.  Much was made in the off season how they were isolated together on Palmers land.  Palmer spoke how it was a tremendous blessing in disguise.  Both QB's were going to come out vastly improved, and different QB's.

The vastly improved seems to have stuck with Allen, not so much with Darnold. 

 People are squarking about the OL.  I'm actually not seeing a horrible OL.  What I'm seeing is Sam just holding the ball, and staring at a WR who has a step on the DB, pretty much open in the NFL.   Being indecisive, not pulling the trigger, pressure starting to build after awhile, then  panicing, and throwing the ball to a guy who's in tight coverage.

Just doesn't look like Sam's got what it takes to be an NFL starting QB.  See a Sanchez type career for him.  Hang around the league 10+ years, make some money, get a few more chanches, but never put it together.

Time to move on 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

Allen was almost 70% on intermediate passes last season. It was a huge improvement from his 1st year. This year his deep ball and short game have improved as well. 

For this season, Allen is about 50% on deep ball attempts which has at #6 so I'm not sure that observation is accurate. 

You’re probably right, didn’t google all his stats so I’ll take your word on it.

That said, my other points stand. He was not accurate in college and developed tremendously. With his physical gifts, he’ll likely be the best QB of that class and one of the best in the NFL. It’s really hard to kill teams that passed on him but kudos the bills, they did get a bit lucky with Allen.

The Bills have a great supporting cast around him. I’m not just talking about offense/diggs/oline. I mean the defense as well. The confidence a shutdown defense can do for a QB is immeasurable. Just ask Sanchez. 

The bills have the D to carry them to a championship, no doubt.

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1 minute ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

I never thought Darnold was anything special but the real place the Jets failed him was not getting him a weapon to utilize. Allen is way better than Darnold in every aspect of the game but the Bills FO knew they needed to surround him with offensive talent. That 1+ they traded to get Diggs paid immediate dividends.

 

Jets had to give up a good bit of the ammo it takes to get weapons to acquire Darnold.  Then Mac threw away what the Jets had left.

Hopefully Douglas will do a lot better job with Lawrence

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10 minutes ago, DetroitRed said:

The first 5 drives for the Bills were all punts and turnovers. Really impressive . This is Allen’s greatness

 

 


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

 


And how did Allen do in the second half of the game?

Allen and the Bills offense took down the number 1 ranked scoring defense in the NFL, in December, in prime time. That happened. On the same day, Sam Darnold and the Jets offense laid another turd on the field against the 18th ranked scoring defense in the NFL. How did Allen do against that very same Seattle defense, by the way? 31/38 for 415 yards and 4 TDs. AFC Offensive Player of the Week.

Put simply: If you really think that Stefon Diggs is the only reason that Josh Allen is having a good year, then I suggest you don't know what you're looking at. How about the fact that Diggs is having the best statistical season of HIS career BY FAR? Could it be that the quarterback is elevating the WR as much as the WR is elevating the QB?

I won't dispute the fact that the Bills have given Allen great weapons and coaching. It has taken a hell of a lot of drive, hard work, and self-improvement by Allen to get to where he is today, though. To say that Allen is still "nothing special" and is good solely because he has a good #1 WR sounds like miserable sour grapes, if you ask me.
 

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6 hours ago, QB1 said:

I don’t blame him, I really don’t. I can’t think of a single QB in NFL history that has had a worse set of circumstances. 

Joe Flacco had the same circumstances and put up a 6/3 TD:INT ratio.  

Darnold, meanwhile, has failed to throw a TD pass in 5 of the last 6 games.  In the 2020 version of the NFL.  He just sh*t the bed, again, this time against the league's worst pass defense.

It's an objective truth at this point:  Darnold sucks.  

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1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Joe Flacco had the same circumstances and had a 6/3 TD:INT ratio.  

Darnold, meanwhile, has failed to throw a TD pass in 5 of the last 6 games.  In the 2020 version of the NFL.

Darnold sucks.  

What the "he's had a terrible set of circumstances" crowd doesn't acknowledge is the high probability that both the supporting cast and the QB can suck at the same time.

You can't point to a bad supporting cast and then leap 500 miles to the conclusion that Darnold is a good player.

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6 hours ago, heymangold said:

If they switched places I think the results would be the same.  Buffalo built AROUND josh allen, the Jets did not. Diggs, Beasley, John Brown, Singletary - a legit defense. There isn’t a skill player on the Jets nearly as good as those on the Bills.

It'll be awesome when Sam Darnold gets great weapons around him, so he can be a horrible QB with great weapons.  

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6 hours ago, heymangold said:

If they switched places I think the results would be the same.  Buffalo built AROUND josh allen, the Jets did not. Diggs, Beasley, John Brown, Singletary - a legit defense. There isn’t a skill player on the Jets nearly as good as those on the Bills.

 

6 hours ago, heymangold said:

so if you give him the sh!t that sam has had the last 3 years, he'd be having the same success?  you can put pat mahomes on this team for the past 3 years and i could guarantee he wouldn't be as successful.  i'm not trying to defend sam, mainly pointing out how the organization shapes how these guys progress.

 

lulz

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5 hours ago, Gastineau Lives said:

I can see what you're saying but Flacco is a finished product. He wasn't ****ed from the start. He was actually un****ed in Baltimore, so I don't think these are fair comparisons. 

Finished....like burnt toast.  

Of all the lame excuses for Darnold's sh*t play, none have been funnier than the one where people are forced to defend Joe Flacco, who has sucked for at least the last 6 years and visibly looked upset that he even had to be on the field this season.

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