Remember how bad goff looked?

[Jets723]

Sam has his issues but you can’t deny that he has had  to deal with some of the worst coaching and supporting cast  I’ve ever seen for a young QB.  Doesn’t matter how good of a QB you are you see need At least some good coaching and talent around you to really succeed.  Like I said I’m not saying Sam doesn’t have his issues he needs to fix.  However I firmly believe he was set up to fail here and in a better situation he will be much better

[WhartonJet]

1 minute ago, Jets723 said:

Sam has his issues but you can’t deny that he has had  to deal with some of the worst coaching and supporting cast  I’ve ever seen for a young QB.  Doesn’t matter how good of a QB you are you see need At least some good coaching and talent around you to really succeed.  Like I said I’m not saying Sam doesn’t have his issues he needs to fix.  However I firmly believe he was set up to fail here and in a better situation he will be much better

I agree, but what is Sam's version of "much better"?  Is that a low level starter in this league?  

[ZachEY]

2 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Yeah head coaching and and a talented roster have 0 effect on a young qb

Indeed.  Worst QB in the NFL is the only possible outcome under these circumstances.

[ZachEY]

5 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Because Jets fans should discuss the reasons for his poor play?  

Especially when so many involved mistakes that shouldnt be made again? 

The mistake was on draft day, and in scouting.  I’d have made the same one too, but that doesn’t change it.

[hamat711]

55 minutes ago, BCJet said:

Sam has traits that COULD have allowed him to be a great player as well.

If you put Josh Allen in an Adam Gase offense where he was dropping back with no motion, no easy reads, no mis-direction, and easily diagnosed RB dive plays he would look nothing like he does today.

Put Sam on the Titans with Henry and Arthur Smith and maybe isnt in the top 10 but he would be considered a legit NFL starter.

What is that great trait? Darnold was never the most accurate. He doesn't have the best arm. He never broke down defenses with his mind. He is mobile, but he is still slightly below average for current NFL starters in athleticism.

His biggest strength out of the draft was his ability to improvise, but that is offset by his tendency to turn the ball over. He still is relatively average improvising compared to the rest of the NFL. 

[Philc1]

15 hours ago, Samtorobby47 said:

It’s all about the situation these guys are put in. 
 

Sam would be doing fine in Buffalo. Josh Allen would look like trash here under Gase. Lamar Jackson would prob be terrible if he was on the lions or something. 

Allen probably ends up as another Bryce Petty if his head coach is Gase and receivers are Chris Hogan and Chris Herndon

[68JET11]

Let's face it, Macc sh!t the bed on this kid, and it wasn't even close. He should have been able to overcome some of the issues he had, but Macc iggy'd the OL for so long the kid developed cold feet. Then to top it off he got stuck with GASE... I did believe that Sam was the best prospect of the 4 coming out, but while he hasn't been put in good circumstances, he also hasn't fixed his weaknesses.

I believe he has regressed in his ability to read progressions, and I don't think that was a problem in his first year. He proved he was seeing downfield if you watch tape. For some reason, and I'm sure it's on GASE and Loggains, they did this kid wrong.

Now I'll rely on our next HC to determine if they want to keep Sam or not, and if they do, a proven backup QB is a must next year. Just imagine the draft the next 2 years, that can be had from trading down from #1. This team can be fixed in that amount of time with the right leadership.

Now before you all crucify me for saying trade out of 1st. I'm not saying that at all, just realizing that there are very few SURE things when it comes to the NFL. Anything can happen and whether we go with TL or trade down, I think the most important part of the puzzle is getting the right HC and staff in here.

[hamat711]

1 minute ago, Philc1 said:

Allen probably ends up as another Bryce Petty if his head coach is Gase and receivers are Chris Hogan and Chris Herndon

Josh Allen flashed elite play making with Zay Jones and Robert Foster his rookie year. 

[ScarletKnight89]

Even if you think Darnold isn't the problem and could be a good QB if we get Gase away from him, you simply can't pass on Trevor Lawrence. 

It's that simple.

[Biggs]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

I dont know, year two 3800 yards, 28 DTs and 7 INTS.  

Year three, 4700 yards, 32 TDs and 12 INTs

Year four, 4,600 yards, 22 TDs, 16 INTs

This YTD, 3500 yards, 18 TDs, 11 INTs

Hes capable of having bad games but he is underrated 

4 playoff games and he sucked.  This is the first year he remotely looks like an elite NFL QB.  By under rated I'm assuming you mean he's a normal NFL starting QB which is rare.  He's not a top 10 guy.  This year he is playing like one for the first time.

[BornJetsFan1983]

1 hour ago, BCJet said:

Sam has traits that COULD have allowed him to be a great player as well.

If you put Josh Allen in an Adam Gase offense where he was dropping back with no motion, no easy reads, no mis-direction, and easily diagnosed RB dive plays he would look nothing like he does today.

Put Sam on the Titans with Henry and Arthur Smith and maybe isnt in the top 10 but he would be considered a legit NFL starter.

The basic offensive strategies that normal teams use really hurt the off but also darnold as a player. There is no excuse not to use them but I agree...using them would have helped a ton to get s to succeed.

[varjet]

Mariota looked better last night.

Darnold will be a Dalton quality QB if he can get onto a real team with good coaches who can tailor a game plan to his strengths.  

[elvispookie]

Darnold is awful. Period. Enough already.. half you guys act like he is your best friend.  He is near or at the bottom everywhere.  Let's examine that long list of FRANCHISE quarterbacks that have led their team to an 0-13 record in YEAR 3!   Give me a break.  Geno showed more and you guys crucified him.  Move on and lets get Trevor

[UnknownJetFan]

20 hours ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Now he is considered a good qb and all it took was decent coaching and scheme. Sure gurley helped, but the rams are not strangers to terrible decisions and bad coaching. They won like 2 games in two years recently. 

They built through the draft and got a coach that actually could put a game plan together.

I think we are very similar to them and many other terrible teams of the past. Darnold is most likely not the problem but even I have to admit his time is probably done for various reasons, it's a shame we wasted his talent and set his career back but hopefully like Tannehil he will be able to play elsewhere.

Hopefully like the rams and miami, we will get decent coaching next year and make some smart moves soon

Hate to sound calis, but right now the way things look we only need to be concerned for the aspect of Darnold is helping our team moving forward and that is likely how much draft capital we get in return for trading him. He had only a 3 year window due to circumstances like the fact that entering his 4th year there has to be a 5th year option decision at 25M and the fact that there is an extremely high regarded prospect number 1 pick in TL that we will have for at least 3 years on a rookie contract with much more draft and cap resources to build around during that window of opportunity. Lets not worry about Sam and his future. That isn't our problem. If he progressed better he could have put the TL conversation to rest, but he didn't and that will still be partially on him that it occurred.  

[Sperm Edwards]

5 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

I dont know, year two 3800 yards, 28 DTs and 7 INTS.  

Year three, 4700 yards, 32 TDs and 12 INTs

Year four, 4,600 yards, 22 TDs, 16 INTs

This YTD, 3500 yards, 18 TDs, 11 INTs

Hes capable of having bad games but he is underrated 

28 DTs?

J!

[Maxta_p]

darnold just needs more time and some fresh weapons

[Jet Nut]

23 hours ago, Biggs said:

4 playoff games and he sucked.  This is the first year he remotely looks like an elite NFL QB.  By under rated I'm assuming you mean he's a normal NFL starting QB which is rare.  He's not a top 10 guy.  This year he is playing like one for the first time.

We were talking about his season play, now were onto playoff losses?  Ws & Ls are team stats, not QB stats.

In just about every measurable, as a 2nd to 4th year QB his in the upper part of the league.  Are we going to argue that  4700 yards, 32 TDs and 12 INTs isnt top of the league, his 2nd year starting is what a normal NFL QB throws for?  Or 4,600 yards, 22 TDs, 16 INTs the following year?  Because thats just not the case, as I said under rated

Basically better than anyone in the history of this team and others.  

Sorry, cant agree, dont think many would. 

[MichaelScott]

On 12/17/2020 at 4:38 PM, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Now he is considered a good qb and all it took was decent coaching and scheme. Sure gurley helped, but the rams are not strangers to terrible decisions and bad coaching. They won like 2 games in two years recently. 

They built through the draft and got a coach that actually could put a game plan together.

I think we are very similar to them and many other terrible teams of the past. Darnold is most likely not the problem but even I have to admit his time is probably done for various reasons, it's a shame we wasted his talent and set his career back but hopefully like Tannehil he will be able to play elsewhere.

Hopefully like the rams and miami, we will get decent coaching next year and make some smart moves soon

We looked at Sam being so young as an asset for the Jets. In the end it turns out it'll be one off the best things going for him.  He was able to waste his rookie contract and the first chunk of his career on the Jets and will still only be 24 as he begins his "start over" with a second team. It's probably the only value he has to other teams at this point - " Forth year, former 3rd overall pick only 24 years old!"

[jetophile]

On 12/17/2020 at 5:22 PM, CanadienJetsFan said:

A coach like McVay would have made Sam a QB good enough to call himself an NFL starter like Goff.

Instead, we got Gase trying to stick a square peg in a round hole.

I don't know what the guy actually did all year except act like he's a misunderstood unjustly maligned genius in post-game pressers (Gase).  Chimps are better at Fisher Price puzzles than he is, btw. Source: fly on the wall.

[pdxgreen]

I give credit to both Goff and Allen.  Both are better than I'd ever thought they'd be. 

[predator_05]

21 hours ago, WhartonJet said:

I agree, but what is Sam's version of "much better"?  Is that a low level starter in this league?  

 

We won't know until he's with a competent coaching staff. 

Whatever he's shown in his NFL career is much better than anything we saw from Goff in his rookie year. 

 

Luck is such a huge part of success. Being in the right place, at the right time, with the right people around you...makes all the difference. 

[predator_05]

On 12/18/2020 at 4:01 AM, Biggs said:

Goff played 1 year under Fisher as a rookie.  This is his 4th year under McVay and the first year he actually looks like an elite NFL QB.  He had a very good year in 2018 when the O ran through Gurley.  When they asked him to step up when Gurley couldn't carry the load he disappeared. 

 

Goff isn't elite by any stretch of the imagination. He's a mediocre QB being propped up by good coaching. He's lucky to have found a good situation; he could have easily been out the league by now if he hadn't run into Mcvay 

[FidelioJet]

Sam will be good.

[BCJet]

22 hours ago, hamat711 said:

What is that great trait? Darnold was never the most accurate. He doesn't have the best arm. He never broke down defenses with his mind. He is mobile, but he is still slightly below average for current NFL starters in athleticism.

His biggest strength out of the draft was his ability to improvise, but that is offset by his tendency to turn the ball over. He still is relatively average improvising compared to the rest of the NFL. 

Yes the ability to improvise but also the ability to feel the rush and escape while keeping his eyes downfield and then throwing accurately on the run.  That is something that you can't teach and is what led me to be so high on him as a prospect.

I figured that the things he needed help with, which you mention above as far as reading defenses and being accurate on script, are the things that actually CAN be taught.  Unfortunately the things he has needed to improve haven't improved and in some cases have regressed.

[More Cowbell]

On 12/17/2020 at 5:22 PM, RutgersJetFan said:

Goff looked like sh*t under Fisher because rookie year is a wash. It's not unheard of for guys to play amazing as rookies and then wash out or for them to play like sh*t and then get better. Sophomore year is kinda telling to certain degrees but you take things with a grain of salt. Year 3 is when you generally, with some exceptions, know what you have. That's why the three year evaluation window exists for most highly drafted QB's and it's safe to say Goff fits in right with the norm. That's why nobody puts much stock in rookie years.

McVay is a good coach but he didn't teach Jared Goff how to play football. No pro coach does. The most obvious answer to things is if a guy is good he will be good and if he's not he won't be. If Darnold could play at he'd at least be able to pull some minor sh*t off and he can't. I have no idea if Gase is any good considering the players he has and he probably is not but Darnold is certainly not his fault.

Honestly, do you really believe that? Darnold was mauled last season and this one is not a lot better as far as his protection. He just expects to get sacked on every play. That is what is wrong with him, he has happy feet. 

Sam has been ruined by this team and we need to move on. 

[Bugg]

In the back of your mind is some historic precedent of a quality QB who had a rough start but turned it around, most prominently the Manning brothers' early struggles. That was a cottage industry around here when it came to trying to find some way to reason Sanchez was going to break out. Problem with that is in NFL history there are a lot more Matt Leinarts, Carson Palmers, Dave Browns and Vince Youngs than there are Eli or Peyton Mannings. Sometimes suck is still suck. And as with Sanchez,Leinart and palmer(aside; do you see a surfer dude trend here?)  Darnold is not getting better. He may find a way like Sanchez and Palmer did to couch surf for a few seasons around the NFL as a backup, but that's it. it's not going to end well professionally. But he, like Palmer, Leinart or Sanchez,  is a young guy with a pile of money so don't weep for Sam Darnold. He simply us never going to be a great starting NFL QB. 

[Bugg]

8 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Honestly, do you really believe that? Darnold was mauled last season and this one is not a lot better as far as his protection. He just expects to get sacked on every play. That is what is wrong with him, he has happy feet. 

Sam has been ruined by this team and we need to move on. 

As to sacks, protection; he gets time. He has arguably the best LT in the NFL on his blind side, and he still hangs onto the ball forever, in part because he cannot read an open receiver. 

[More Cowbell]

8 minutes ago, Bugg said:

As to sacks, protection; he gets time. He has arguably the best LT in the NFL on his blind side, and he still hangs onto the ball forever, in part because he cannot read an open receiver. 

I think he hangs onto the ball because he doesn't trust his protection and pulls it down and runs before he needs to. 

Also, Becton can't protect Sam by himself. Other than him I don't expect to see any of the OL retained. 

[Charlie Brown]

On 12/17/2020 at 4:41 PM, Skeet Ulrich said:

I agree, if the Jets draft 7 All-Pros on offense Darnold will look semi-respectable.

Hmmmm putting Sam Darnold aside, he probably will be gone, as a thought experiment, I want to know from you, what QB would look good or has looked good with a historically terrible OL, bottom three skill position players, bad coaching staff?

Thus for example, say using Tannehill wont or wouldn't make sense, because while he had poor coaching IMO (aka Adam Gase), he had very good skill players and a far better OL for example......

Honest query here.......

[Jet Nut]

19 minutes ago, Bugg said:

As to sacks, protection; he gets time. He has arguably the best LT in the NFL on his blind side, and he still hangs onto the ball forever, in part because he cannot read an open receiver. 

In lager part because the OL cant protect him long enough for his WRs to get open.

[Charlie Brown]

On 12/17/2020 at 6:43 PM, HawkeyeJet said:

Yes like Steve Young did in Tampa.

I'm not saying your post is wrong, but if Steve Young actually said that he should probably shut up.

 

@Hawkeye JetThank you notice those who tell you to "shut up" never show facts..

Well let's look at them.....      

Throwing out Young's first year as a rookie we get this in Young's next and only year remaining in Tampa..

                        Games             ATT      COMP            PCT           QBR

Tampa Bay         14           363    195       53.72       65.5

Hmmmmmm hardly HOF numbers at all and yes Walsh knew he could use him but for folks to compare Gase to Walsh is a disgrace and Young should be ashamed cause he literally didn't "uplift Tampa" by his play.

And him playing behind the greatest QB and offensive coach of his generation in Walsh didn't help either right!! Young did it all by his lonesome self. 

Oh and Tampa Bay's record was 2-14, during that time period!

What a joke!

Men lie, Women lie.. NUMBERS DON'T!!!

[Charlie Brown]

19 hours ago, Maxta_p said:

darnold just needs more time and some fresh weapons

Hmmmmm you just can't excuse away his bone head plays....... Period

Sam Darnold has NOT played well...

[predator_05]

55 minutes ago, Bugg said:

In the back of your mind is some historic precedent of a quality QB who had a rough start but turned it around, most prominently the Manning brothers' early struggles. That was a cottage industry around here when it came to trying to find some way to reason Sanchez was going to break out. Problem with that is in NFL history there are a lot more Matt Leinarts, Carson Palmers, Dave Browns and Vince Youngs than there are Eli or Peyton Mannings. Sometimes suck is still suck. And as with Sanchez,Leinart and palmer(aside; do you see a surfer dude trend here?)  Darnold is not getting better. He may find a way like Sanchez and Palmer did to couch surf for a few seasons around the NFL as a backup, but that's it. it's not going to end well professionally. But he, like Palmer, Leinart or Sanchez,  is a young guy with a pile of money so don't weep for Sam Darnold. He simply us never going to be a great starting NFL QB. 

 

Carson palmer had a very good career. Not sure he belongs in this discussion

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, Bugg said:

In the back of your mind is some historic precedent of a quality QB who had a rough start but turned it around, most prominently the Manning brothers' early struggles. That was a cottage industry around here when it came to trying to find some way to reason Sanchez was going to break out. Problem with that is in NFL history there are a lot more Matt Leinarts, Carson Palmers, Dave Browns and Vince Youngs than there are Eli or Peyton Mannings. Sometimes suck is still suck. And as with Sanchez,Leinart and palmer(aside; do you see a surfer dude trend here?)  Darnold is not getting better. He may find a way like Sanchez and Palmer did to couch surf for a few seasons around the NFL as a backup, but that's it. it's not going to end well professionally. But he, like Palmer, Leinart or Sanchez,  is a young guy with a pile of money so don't weep for Sam Darnold. He simply us never going to be a great starting NFL QB. 

Problem is with the history of the NFL you rarely find a case, if any where a QB comes out of college as highly rated as Darnold, as young as Darnold and then have his team waste 3 seasons on the kid by providing 0 help through coaching and putting a supporting cast around him that wouldnt even allow a HOF QB to have decent production.  

So how can anyone fairly evaluate what he was or is?  For all those who kill Darnold or those who kill the players he was given to work with the fact is because theres always the thought that he wasnt given a fair chance no one will ever know what it was that went so badly wrong here.

 

[hamat711]

2 hours ago, BCJet said:

Yes the ability to improvise but also the ability to feel the rush and escape while keeping his eyes downfield and then throwing accurately on the run.  That is something that you can't teach and is what led me to be so high on him as a prospect.

I figured that the things he needed help with, which you mention above as far as reading defenses and being accurate on script, are the things that actually CAN be taught.  Unfortunately the things he has needed to improve haven't improved and in some cases have regressed.

Darnold's feel for the rush has actually been a weakness on the Pro Level. Darnold is constantly bailing from clean pockets. As I said before, his ability to keep his eyes upfield has been negated by his tendency to turn the ball over. Half of Darnold's interceptions have come when he was improvising this year.