I want Penei Sewell at 2nd Overall

[nycdan]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

Im not dying on this hill but I am planting a flag that 5 years from now we look back and say "holy sh*t, why did we pass on penei sewell" the same way we say "holy sh*t why did we trade up for Sam instead of just taking Quenton Nelson" 

other teams like the Ravens and chiefs did not have to take a QB at 2. The chiefs are the number one seed in the AFC. The Steelers didn't take a QB at 2 they took ben around 10 or 11 without looking it up 

in fact the list of QBs who went top 3 to teams that weren't ready is a long list

how about Joe Burrow for a cautionary tale? His friggin knee exploded. 

 

Fant is only slightly better in pass protection than Bobby Hart, who got Joe Burrow murdered this year 

and yes we agree he's terrible at run blocking. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to run in two directions? 

Before the Sugar Bowl, I was very on board with Sewell.  But that was because I thought the gap between TL and the rest of the field (no pun intended) was huge.  Now I think Fields is much closer to Lawrence than anyone else is to either.  I still want to see what happens next week.

If Fields bombs, I'd be on the Sewell train (did I really just say that?!) but if he puts up another monster game, I think you'd be nuts to pass him.

For every Sam-over-Nelson moment, there is a Jamal-over-Mahomes moment.  

TL/DR I absolutely don't disagree with the position.  I did disagree with you appearing to not put QB above the other positions in terms of importance but I can understand the appeal of building a solid foundation like we had in 2010 and then hopefully being able to bring in a QB better than Sanchez to take advantage of it.

[Philc1]

2 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

So all NCAA QB's are now compared to Cardale Jones. 

I had my doubts about Fields but now that I know Brian Schottenheimer will be coaching him I’m totally sold 

[Philc1]

57 minutes ago, MindOverMatter said:

Sewell is a great prospect and I would love to draft him but it's painfully clear Sam isn't the answer. You argue that the Jets can wait until the 2nd 1st round pick or later to draft a QB, but IMO that's what they should do with the Tackle position. Guard seems to be the bigger problem anyway. Fant isn't a problem in pass protection, it's his run blocking that is awful.

Take Fields at 2. With the 2nd 1st rounder take highest rated skill position player, edge, or tackle. Rnd 2 grab a big runblocking guard to help out Fant or just replace Fant for good and be done with it. Hard to justify taking a Tackle at 2 with the current QB situation. 

With a better QB the line will look and play better. Taking Sewell will almost unsure that the Jets will not be picking top 3 for awhile. Line will win a few games on their own. Have to take advantage and take a QB now, IMO.

What if Wilson or Lance are available with the Seattle pick?

[bitonti]

Just now, nycdan said:

Before the Sugar Bowl, I was very on board with Sewell.  But that was because I thought the gap between TL and the rest of the field (no pun intended) was huge.  Now I think Fields is much closer to Lawrence than anyone else is to either.  I still want to see what happens next week.

If Fields bombs, I'd be on the Sewell train (did I really just say that?!) but if he puts up another monster game, I think you'd be nuts to pass him.

For every Sam-over-Nelson moment, there is a Jamal-over-Mahomes moment.  

TL/DR I absolutely don't disagree with the position.  I did disagree with you appearing to not put QB above the other positions in terms of importance but I can understand the appeal of building a solid foundation like we had in 2010 and then hopefully being able to bring in a QB better than Sanchez to take advantage of it.

I mean, Trevor hasn't declared yet. How hard is this decision exactly? His season is over. what is he thinking about? 

Fields put forth a heroic effort and if he does it again (or not), i'd be happy of him at 2. Even though I wonder what his arm velocity really is, in MPH. This isn't an anti-Fields take. Or even an anti Trevor take even though he'd probably be miserable living in New Jersey. They are both 1 and 1a and I didn't always think that was the case with fields. 

 I'd just be more happy with Sewell. draft a guy like that it gives the team an identity and makes it easier for whoever plays QB.

And there is a recency bias here, wait until Sewell out performs a small Toyota tacoma in Indy, he's a very special athlete who will have had 9 months of specialized training before the combine 

btw Jamal Adams wasn't a bad pick. The guy was flipped for 2 firsts and a 3rd or something. He had value it wasn't a shocking set back for the franchise and, others have said it was a haul. It's a little like Miami drafting Tunsil and flipping him for 3rd overall. Drafting a guy who has that kind of draft value isn't a bad pick. The Jets could be at that crossroads with Sewell and Becton in 2026 as @Sperm Edwards likes to point out

sam on the other hand, what's he worth? How much better would this franchise be with Quenton Nelson and three second round picks? It's hypothetical but value is value and it's better to draft players who have high world class value even if they aren't QBs and you need a new QB. 

 

[bitonti]

18 minutes ago, jgb said:

You know I respect you bit, and very often agree. I don't here but that's ok. I'm curious to know what your view is of the likelihood that JD (a) passes on a QB at 2 and takes Sewell (or someone else); or (b) trades down. Thank you.

Trading down from 2 is like selling a house that's worth 5+ million dollars. Yes it has value but you need to find a buyer for the pick. It's not a quick and easy sale. JD is trying to trade down, whether he finds a buyer is another question.  I don't think he will find a price that exceeds what Sewell or the QBs bring to the team. 

There is a likelihood JD passes on a QB if the QB available at 2 doesn't answer all the questions. It's probably a small chance and gets smaller if Fields throws another 6 TD vs Bama. 

I'm not here predicting Sewell. I know i'm in the minority on this and most fans just want to take another wild swing at QB. it's just not how I see other successful franchises finding Success. The program is more important than any one player. Joe Burrow was that one guy and he got slaughtered in Cinci. Andrew Luck retired before 30. the "franchise Savior QB" might not be a real thing. taking Fields at 2 or TL at 2 somehow feels like taking Darnold again. We all used to like Darnold. remember that? We all like Fields and TL now. I'm not confident it's going to work. But I'd bet money on it happening. 

they should take sewell but i don't know if they have the guts to do it or that it will happen. to pass on the QB means doing the unpopular thing and admitting the offense is a tire fire with or without the QB when fans just want dumb hope and owners just want to sell parking passes 

 

[nycdan]

11 minutes ago, bitonti said:

 

sam on the other hand, what's he worth? How much better would this franchise be with Quenton Nelson and three second round picks? It's hypothetical but value is value and it's better to draft players who have high world class value even if they aren't QBs and you need a new QB. 

 

Draft Watson or Mahomes in 2017.

Then you draft Nelson and keep the 2nd rounders in 2018. 

Maybe we take Darius Leonard where the Colts took him.  Then we don't throw bags of money at Mosley.

This is the alternate-universe Jets I would love to have seen.

[bitonti]

32 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Draft Watson or Mahomes in 2017.

Then you draft Nelson and keep the 2nd rounders in 2018. 

Maybe we take Darius Leonard where the Colts took him.  Then we don't throw bags of money at Mosley.

This is the alternate-universe Jets I would love to have seen.

i am on record on this board wanting Mahomes the day before the Jets took Adams 

no one remembers that crap it's all Drob this and Gholston that 

everyone comes at me for Sewell but I wonder if the onus should be on QB at 2 people to show their work why picking QB high is such a great move 

usually you build the team then you get the rookie QB cheap and go for the super bowl 

Jets fans seem to hand wave that whole program building part and just assume Fields or Trevor will save the franchise like a miracle

it feels like a shortcut and while i've also said there's no such thing as rebuilds, just reloads, there are also no shortcuts and this program was torn down to the foundation - it's going to take more than 1 good QB and a bunch of FA mercenaries to make this team watchable . forget about competitive or contending. Average/mediocre would be a great improvement by next year. 

it's a full gut job. Can Fields or Trevor handle a 1-15 season in 2021?  Can the fans? Cause that's the Troy Aikman/Peyton Manning model, and it's not really been replicated too often in the modern era 

 

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

i am on record on this board wanting Mahomes the day before the Jets took Adams 

no one remembers that crap it's all Drob this and Gholston that 

everyone comes at me for Sewell but I wonder if the onus should be on QB at 2 people to show their work why picking QB high is such a great move 

usually you build the team then you get the rookie QB cheap and go for the super bowl 

Jets fans seem to hand wave that whole program building part and just assume Fields or Trevor will save the franchise like a miracle

it feels like a shortcut and while i've also said there's no such thing as rebuilds, just reloads, there are also no shortcuts and this program was torn down to the foundation has to be rebuilt brick by brick.

it's a full gut job. Can Fields or Trevor handle a 1-15 season in 2021?  Can the fans? Cause that's the Troy Aikman/Peyton Manning model, and it's not really been replicated too often in the modern era 

 

What of the belief that our offensive weaponz wouldn't look so terrible without the league-worst QB throwing them the ball? I happen to think the defense is in a lot worse shape than the offense.

[bitonti]

Just now, jgb said:

What of the belief that our offensive weaponz wouldn't look so terrible without the league-worst QB throwing them the ball? I happen to think the defense is in a lot worse shape than the offense.

The only real weapon, proven, is Crowder. Mims and Perriman are not reliable for whatever reasons. The RB cupboard is bare. Herndon is a tease but he did seem to get some Sam chemistry down the stretch. Look at how good that Lindenhurst TE was for Fields the other night, the Jets have no one big and reliable like that for Sam or whoever. There's a case the post-Robby Jets have the worst weapons in football.

put it another way go position by position with Jacksonville. Only Becton and Crowder (slot) would start for sure on that offense, who went 1-15 this year.  

as for is the defense or the offense worse, my response is it doesn't matter. the league wants 48-45 shootouts if possible so rebuilding the offense has to take the priority. 

 

[jgb]

12 minutes ago, bitonti said:

The only real weapon, proven, is Crowder. Mims and Perriman are not reliable for whatever reasons. The RB cupboard is bare. Herndon is a tease but he did seem to get some Sam chemistry down the stretch. Look at how good that Lindenhurst TE was for Fields the other night, the Jets have no one big and reliable like that for Sam or whoever. There's a case the post-Robby Jets have the worst weapons in football.

put it another way go position by position with Jacksonville. Only Becton and Crowder (slot) would start for sure on that offense, who went 1-15 this year.  

as for is the defense or the offense worse, my response is it doesn't matter. the league wants 48-45 shootouts if possible so rebuilding the offense has to take the priority. 

 

Perriman is no good that we agree. Mims will be a pro bowler within 2 years. The difference between him and DK Metcalf and Chris Godwin is competent QB play.

[bitonti]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

 Mims will be a pro bowler within 2 years. The difference between him and DK Metcalf and Chris Godwin is competent QB play.

it's not Sam Darnold's fault that Mims missed 7 games this season 

DK Metcalf is a human tank who has played in 32 games in his first 2 seasons 

I like Mims but he's not a Pro Bowler or even a real starter until he proves it on the field 

[jgb]

8 minutes ago, bitonti said:

it's not Sam Darnold's fault that Mims missed 7 games this season 

DK Metcalf is a human tank who has played in 32 games in his first 2 seasons 

I like Mims but he's not a Pro Bowler or even a real starter until he proves it on the field 

Agree on the injury part. You know as well as I that the prediction game is dangerous but nothing ventured, nothing gained.  

[dcJet]

10 minutes ago, jgb said:

Perriman is no good that we agree. Mims will be a pro bowler within 2 years. The difference between him and DK Metcalf and Chris Godwin is competent QB play.

DK Metcalf!  Chris Godwin!  OMG.  You're nuts, man.

[jgb]

8 minutes ago, dcJet said:

DK Metcalf!  Chris Godwin!  OMG.  You're nuts, man.

It's not really as big a stretch as it may seem. Athletically he more gifted than Godwin and basically tied with Metcalf (much better three cone and a few percentile points lower in the other categories) -- which is one reason he was drafted earlier than both of them. Will be a nice feather to my cap after predicting Tannehill would be a pro bowler, made when he was TN's backup and that Josh Rosen was an undraftable bust. And if I'm wrong? Well we both agree it's bold so no shame in that. What's the fun of easy predictions?

[dcJet]

You have to admit that it's concerning how invisible Mims is.    I'm concerned he's nothing more than Sanu at this point.  

Bad QB play?  Maybe he would be better if on Pittsburgh or Seattle but theres a good chance he'd be on the bench for those teams too.

I agree bad QB play lowers WR stats but they don't become invisible, just lower.

Claypool just had 5-101-1 with Mason freakin Rudolph.

Aiyuk has been balling with freekin Mullins.

Perriman and Crowder are  getting some with Darnold.  

It's concerning.

 

[dcJet]

8 minutes ago, jgb said:

It's not really as big a stretch as it may seem. Athletically he more gifted than Godwin and basically tied with Metcalf (much better three cone and a few percentile points lower in the other categories) -- which is one reason he was drafted earlier than both of them. I recognize it's a bold prediction. But what's the fun of the easy ones. Will be a nice feather to my cap after prediction Tannehill would be a pro bowler, made when he was TN's backup and that Josh Rosen was an undraftable bust. And if I'm wrong? Well we both agree it's bold so no shame in that.

 

Athletic helps at WR and Mims has great hands and can high point.  What's missing?  I think he looks stiff out there.

If he ever scores a TD, I hope he doesn't embarrass himself by dancing like Baker Mayfield or Charlton.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, dcJet said:

Athletic helps at WR and Mims has great hands and can high point.  What's missing?  I think he looks stiff out there.

If he ever scores a TD, I hope he doesn't embarrass himself by dancing like Baker Mayfield or Charlton.

He was hurt -- not a good sign but he was never hurt in school so hoping it's not a trend. Also, he was catching passes from the worst QB in the NFL who is notoriously bad at the deep ball. With his athletic profile that should be his bread and butter. Guy ran a 4.38 at 6'3''.

[kdels62]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

Trading down from 2 is like selling a house that's worth 5+ million dollars. Yes it has value but you need to find a buyer for the pick. It's not a quick and easy sale. JD is trying to trade down, whether he finds a buyer is another question.  I don't think he will find a price that exceeds what Sewell or the QBs bring to the team. 

There is a likelihood JD passes on a QB if the QB available at 2 doesn't answer all the questions. It's probably a small chance and gets smaller if Fields throws another 6 TD vs Bama. 

I'm not here predicting Sewell. I know i'm in the minority on this and most fans just want to take another wild swing at QB. it's just not how I see other successful franchises finding Success. The program is more important than any one player. Joe Burrow was that one guy and he got slaughtered in Cinci. Andrew Luck retired before 30. the "franchise Savior QB" might not be a real thing. taking Fields at 2 or TL at 2 somehow feels like taking Darnold again. We all used to like Darnold. remember that? We all like Fields and TL now. I'm not confident it's going to work. But I'd bet money on it happening. 

they should take sewell but i don't know if they have the guts to do it or that it will happen. to pass on the QB means doing the unpopular thing and admitting the offense is a tire fire with or without the QB when fans just want dumb hope and owners just want to sell parking passes 

 

It is literally how other franchises find success. The difference between what Fields, Lawrence and Wilson offer and what Sam offers is a much more crucial gap than Sewell and anyone else.

The story is written in the simple reality that Sewell as great as he may end up being will always be relatively more similar to a league average tackle than a top 15 QB is to a bottom 5 QB. Tyron Smith was dominant for years, he won nothing. Trent Williams won nothing. Joe Thomas, same. Anthony Costanzo, nope. 

You say Garrett Bolles sucks but the league views him as high end, it doesn’t matter because he’s not gonna change his franchise. How great has Quinton Nelson been since Luck retired? The difference in good tackle play and average tackle play is less relevant than good QB play and average QB play. 

[MindOverMatter]

2 hours ago, Philc1 said:

What if Wilson or Lance are available with the Seattle pick?

Not worth the risk to wait around and see. Not a fan of Wilson personally and Lance is interesting but is a project. At least Fields would most likely be starting or at least being the favored to win in camp, Lance would need time. Wilson has had too many major injuries already and needs to put on like 10-15 lbs of mass/muscle or else he'll get ripped in half.

 

[bitonti]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

Agree on the injury part. You know as well as I that the prediction game is dangerous but nothing ventured, nothing gained.  

OK let's walk the dog on mims and say he turns out awesome 

That's 3 or 4 players on offense, crowder, mims Becton and McGovern maybe? 

It's not a great spot for a savior

[nycdan]

2 hours ago, bitonti said:

The only real weapon, proven, is Crowder. Mims and Perriman are not reliable for whatever reasons. The RB cupboard is bare. Herndon is a tease but he did seem to get some Sam chemistry down the stretch. Look at how good that Lindenhurst TE was for Fields the other night, the Jets have no one big and reliable like that for Sam or whoever. There's a case the post-Robby Jets have the worst weapons in football.

 

Fair but I'd put the Texans right down there with the Jets, and look what Watson did with that mess.  Just led the league in yard passing. 

Derrick Henry had almost as many yards rushing as Sam did passing this year.

[bitonti]

41 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Fair but I'd put the Texans right down there with the Jets, and look what Watson did with that mess.  Just led the league in yard passing. 

Derrick Henry had almost as many yards rushing as Sam did passing this year.

The Sewell pick creates the opportunity for a Derrick Henry type to perform 

The 2020 Jets did not have any will fuller btw who was ripping up the league before he got busted for ped. David Johnson, etc

[jgb]

4 hours ago, bitonti said:

OK let's walk the dog on mims and say he turns out awesome 

That's 3 or 4 players on offense, crowder, mims Becton and McGovern maybe? 

It's not a great spot for a savior

Let's also not forget we have 4 top 100 picks. You gotta think JD going O heavy on those. That leaves 3 after the QB. Hit on one and you've suddenly got a nice core. If you need better than that for a QB then (a) he's not the right QB; and (b) you could be waiting forever. The offense will take longer to fix than the defense IMHO.

EDIT: meant the DEFENSE will take longer to fix than offense 

[nycdan]

5 minutes ago, jgb said:

Let's also not forget we have 4 top 100 picks. You gotta think JD going O heavy on those. That leaves 3 after the QB. Hit on one and you've suddenly got a nice core. If you need better than that for a QB then (a) he's not the right QB; and (b) you could be waiting forever. The offense will take longer to fix than the defense IMHO.

5 top-100 picks.

Round 1: Second overall, 27th overall (from Seahawks/Jamal Adams trade)

Round 2: 34th overall

Round 3: 66th overall, 91st overall (from Seahawks/Jamal Adams trade)

[kdels62]

2 hours ago, bitonti said:

The Sewell pick creates the opportunity for a Derrick Henry type to perform 

The 2020 Jets did not have any will fuller btw who was ripping up the league before he got busted for ped. David Johnson, etc

The Titans do not have two top picks at the tackle position. 

[jgb]

2 hours ago, nycdan said:

5 top-100 picks.

Round 1: Second overall, 27th overall (from Seahawks/Jamal Adams trade)

Round 2: 34th overall

Round 3: 66th overall, 91st overall (from Seahawks/Jamal Adams trade)

Thank ya

[bitonti]

2 hours ago, jgb said:

Let's also not forget we have 4 top 100 picks. You gotta think JD going O heavy on those. That leaves 3 after the QB. Hit on one and you've suddenly got a nice core. If you need better than that for a QB then (a) he's not the right QB; and (b) you could be waiting forever. The offense will take longer to fix than the defense IMHO.

Only bad teams look to the draft hoping to solve immediate problems. The jets got zero production from their 3rd Rd picks Davis and Zuniga there's no reason to believe jd will find insta starters with all his picks. More likely those picks take 2 to 3 years to show anything. That's kind of how it goes after Rd 1. Mims for example did not instantly replace robby 

[bitonti]

1 hour ago, kdels62 said:

The Titans do not have two top picks at the tackle position. 

They drafted Taylor lewan high first Rd and Jack Conklin high first to create a program. They traded for Dennis Kelly and drafted Isaiah Wilson low Rd 1 to replace Conklin. They invest in their line 

[jgb]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

Only bad teams look to the draft hoping to solve immediate problems. The jets got zero production from their 3rd Rd picks Davis and Zuniga there's no reason to believe jd will find insta starters with all his picks. More likely those picks take 2 to 3 years to show anything. That's kind of how it goes after Rd 1. Mims for example did not instantly replace robby 

Didn’t say year one return. There would be value in the core growing up together 

[kdels62]

12 minutes ago, bitonti said:

They drafted Taylor lewan high first Rd and Jack Conklin high first to create a program. They traded for Dennis Kelly and drafted Isaiah Wilson low Rd 1 to replace Conklin. They invest in their line 

Cool let’s use a late first rounder on an OL.

[bitonti]

2 hours ago, kdels62 said:

Cool let’s use a late first rounder on an OL.

Let's not.

Isaiah Wilson got caught at not 1 but 2 illegal college parties and his rookie season was a complete wash. 

[bitonti]

2 hours ago, jgb said:

Didn’t say year one return. There would be value in the core growing up together 

 

There's also value in the Jets creating a top 10 offensive line. Perhaps more value, with less risk. 

 

[Philc1]

13 hours ago, jgb said:

Perriman is no good that we agree. Mims will be a pro bowler within 2 years. The difference between him and DK Metcalf and Chris Godwin is competent QB play.

[Philc1]

6 hours ago, bitonti said:

 

There's also value in the Jets creating a top 10 offensive line. Perhaps more value, with less risk. 

 

Top 10? Draft Sewell and sign Thuney we have easily the best OL in the entire NFL

[Philc1]

13 hours ago, MindOverMatter said:

Not worth the risk to wait around and see. Not a fan of Wilson personally and Lance is interesting but is a project. At least Fields would most likely be starting or at least being the favored to win in camp, Lance would need time. Wilson has had too many major injuries already and needs to put on like 10-15 lbs of mass/muscle or else he'll get ripped in half.

 

Fields with a hack like Schitty coaching him is going to bust