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Bengals win last night was HUGE


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33 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Hey, I was screaming about Mac ignoring the O line (the largest starting position group) in the draft for years. I am all for drafting O linemen in the first 3 rounds. But, the GMs job is to build the whole team. Trading the #2 pick for more draft capital and taking a C and a  different RT in the first 3 rounds will still improve the line greatly. IMO, the Jets simply have too many holes to spend the #2 pick on a RT. However, I agree, the line would be dominant. It is reminiscent of the Jets using successive first round picks on LT Marvin Powell and RT Chris Ward in the mid 70s. The line was always good when anchored by those 2. Just like it was always good when anchored by Brick and Nick. I do see the wisdom in what you want to do, I just think there are other moves that fill more needs.

Speaking of needs --- how about the Jet LB corps? It may be the least talented position group in the entire NFL, Wouldn't JD be tempted to take Micah Parsons at 2 if he's not trading the pick because it fills a bigger need?

I'm somewhat comfortable with what we have in the middle of the LB core. I do think we still (always) need a DE in a 4-3 or a linebacker that is a pass rush threat all day. That said, I'd much prefer we continue to work on the units that win games - the o-line, the QB, one more WR and/or a TE threat. Then on defense, we need a corner who can play man-to-man on the outside.  You are never going to be totally strong at every unit. Linebackers is one of the lowest priorities to me. We should have a stout interior D-line and Maye is pretty good along with some decent young pieces in the secondary that will look even better when we can start actually laying pressure on the QB.

Frankly, I would never draft a linebacker early. The only defensive players that should go in Round 1 are elite shutdown corners or elite pass rushers. Not run stuffers and safeties like we normally go with.

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2 hours ago, Jetsbb said:

We would never be able to sign both Becton and Sewell to second contracts. Why would we draft a guy we know we can only keep for 5 years?

Because if we're not competing for a Super Bowl in the next 5 years what the hell is the point of any of these threads?

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2 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

The team has greater needs than overspending draft capital on a RT. In 3 years, Sewell will be demanding a trade because he can not make as much money as a RT than if he was a LT, or he will want the Jets to pay him LT money. It makes better sense to trade out, fill other holes and take the 4th or 5th best T in the draft to play RT. While I agree a line with Sewell at RT would be dominant, JD is building a team that can be successful year after year and Sewell at RT makes little sense in the long term rebuild of a perpetually successful team.

I totally get this line of thinking, but having the most dominant line in football is an extremely valuable asset- it improves the performance of (and necessity to overspend on) multiple positions. If he wants a trade, we can recoup picks if he (or Becton) want out. It’s really not a terrible option, and it could be argued that it is exactly how you build a perpetually successful team. I get your perspective, though. 

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2 hours ago, bitonti said:

Since we are talking about the Bengals game, juju is an embarrassment. I don't want that d bag anywhere near this roster 

Always beware former Steelers WRs. They are rarely the same player after they leave the warm bosom of one of the more WR-friendly systems in the league.

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No way should JN be rooting for a Bengals win over the TEXANS (Miami has rights to their 1st round draft pick). 

• With a Texans win the Dolphins would end up picking anywhere from 7th-12th. 

• With a Texans loss the Dolphins would be picking within top 5. 

You're absolutely psycho if you want to see Cincinnati beat the Texans...

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38 minutes ago, the Claw said:

I totally get this line of thinking, but having the most dominant line in football is an extremely valuable asset- it improves the performance of (and necessity to overspend on) multiple positions. If he wants a trade, we can recoup picks if he (or Becton) want out. It’s really not a terrible option, and it could be argued that it is exactly how you build a perpetually successful team. I get your perspective, though. 

I think what @Sonny Werblin is getting at is using the #2 overall pick on a 2nd bookend tackle isn't required to build the most dominant line in football, let alone the best roster we can put on the field. One can build a top (if not the top) OL by using a later 1st round pick (or 2nd rounder, or even a later day 2 pick) at RT. The upside there is that #2 can be used elsewhere. 

Also agree with him that there's a longer-term look at a player than a 4 yr contract + 5th yr option when you're taking a player that early. First and foremost you want elite production but it's unlikely they'll be able to hang on to two elite LTs so we can put one at RT. It's overkill in that the #2 overall pick isn't required to find an elite (or elite-enough) RT. Seems it's a less difficult to find a top 5-10 RT later in the draft than a Bosa-type edge rusher, seeing how there's only 1 that was drafted inside the top 4 in the first place (and the only reason that happened is because he wasn't suited for LT plus Jason Peters being an ageless wonder. 

If you're locked in with an elite LT and are looking for 4 years of "sure thing" production at RT, then ante up for a Jack Conklin in FA and use the #2 overall pick to fill a hole that can't be adequately filled in free agency or later in the draft. Is he as good as Sewell is expected to be? No, but it's really not necessary that he is. Whatever problems Cleveland has this year - or Tennessee the prior 5 years - if RT was among them then they've got the best roster in history and therefore it still doesn't matter.

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4 hours ago, JetPotato said:

I'm not basing decisions on pure speculation about Sewell's hypothetical contract demands 4 years from now (when he'll still be under contract and can be franchised beyond). I'm trying to build the best possible team now. And the best possible team is built in the trenches. At some point our fan base needs to learn this. 

I'm unclear why building the teams O line has to be mutually exclusive from trading back from #2 and not taking Sewell. I see JD trying to build the O line and solving many other issues by trading back from #2, doing something like this. But, we'll have to wait and see. Bottom line is that a dominant O line is not dependent on drafting Sewell.


16.Creed Humphrey OC Oklahoma
26. Travis Etienne RB Clemson
33. Pat Freiermuth TE Penn State
49. Derion Kendrick CB Clemson
66. Dillon Radunz OT North Dakota State
79. Hamilcar Rashed Jr. EDGE/OLB Oregon State
89. Kuony Deng LB California
96. Jamien Sherwood S Auburn
129. Amari Rodgers WR Clemson
139. Paris Ford S Pitt
160. Kary Vincent Jr. CB LSU
173. Tyler Linderbaum OC Iowa
216. Ed Ingram OG LSU
2022 CHI 1st
2022 CHI 2nd

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2 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I'm unclear why building the teams O line has to be mutually exclusive from trading back from #2 and not taking Sewell. I see JD trying to build the O line and solving many other issues by trading back from #2, doing something like this. But, we'll have to wait and see. Bottom line is that a dominant O line is dependent on drafting Sewell.


16.Creed Humphrey OC Oklahoma
26. Travis Etienne RB Clemson
33. Pat Freiermuth TE Penn State
49. Derion Kendrick CB Clemson
66. Dillon Radunz OT North Dakota State
79. Hamilcar Rashed Jr. EDGE/OLB Oregon State
89. Kuony Deng LB California
96. Jamien Sherwood S Auburn
129. Amari Rodgers WR Clemson
139. Paris Ford S Pitt
160. Kary Vincent Jr. CB LSU
173. Tyler Linderbaum OC Iowa
216. Ed Ingram OG LSU
2022 CHI 1st
2022 CHI 2nd

I'm ok with trading down if this is the approach. But I'd prefer Sewell. That line would be straight up nasty. No one would want to play against them.

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7 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Also agree with him that there's a longer-term look at a player than a 4 yr contract + 5th yr option when you're taking a player that early. First and foremost you want elite production but it's unlikely they'll be able to hang on to two elite LTs so we can put one at RT. It's overkill in that the #2 overall pick isn't required to find an elite (or elite-enough) RT. Seems it's a less difficult to find a top 5-10 RT later in the draft than a Bosa-type edge rusher, seeing how there's only 1 that was drafted inside the top 4 in the first place (and the only reason that happened is because he wasn't suited for LT plus Jason Peters being an ageless wonder. 

 

this would all make sense on a team with other assets or obligations

the Jets have like 4 players on the roster worth a damn and they are all on their rookie deals (Becton, Williams, Foley and sometimes Mims) 

100 mil in cap space 

Cmon dude i know you're like Woody's unpaid part time accountant but this team can afford Becton and Sewell, easily 

 

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1 minute ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I'm unclear why building the teams O line has to be mutually exclusive from trading back from #2 and not taking Sewell. I see JD trying to build the O line and solving many other issues by trading back from #2, doing something like this. But, we'll have to wait and see. Bottom line is that a dominant O line is dependent on drafting Sewell.


16.Creed Humphrey OC Oklahoma
26. Travis Etienne RB Clemson
33. Pat Freiermuth TE Penn State
49. Derion Kendrick CB Clemson
66. Dillon Radunz OT North Dakota State
79. Hamilcar Rashed Jr. EDGE/OLB Oregon State
89. Kuony Deng LB California
96. Jamien Sherwood S Auburn
129. Amari Rodgers WR Clemson
139. Paris Ford S Pitt
160. Kary Vincent Jr. CB LSU
173. Tyler Linderbaum OC Iowa
216. Ed Ingram OG LSU
2022 CHI 1st
2022 CHI 2nd

Thing is - and it's early yet as there's still time for prospect slot shuffling after #1 - I don't know that I'd want them to trade that far down, and then take a ****ing center with the #16 pick any more than a RT with the #2 pick. Also McGovern had a disappointing season - particularly early on - but if center is the first pick of the Jets' 2021 draft then it'll be an extreme disappointment.

The Jets have a ton of high picks, and yes they could accumulate another 1 or 2 by moving down from #2, but they aren't desperate enough for day 1-2 picks to drop all the way down to the middle of the 1st round after going 1-15 or whatever the final record is, let alone for a center.

They're not drafting 13 players because you can't start that many year 1-2 players in 2021 and 2022. Veterans need to be on the field and not just 1 or 2 of them, and you don't trade out of an elite slot to shore up depth. JMO. 

But I totally agree with you on not using the 2nd pick in the country on a RT (I think you meant to say a "dominant O line is not dependent on drafting Sewell" above). The very point of having Fant on a reasonable-enough starter contract (with another half-season of guaranteed money remaining I think), is you can draft someone else later and make him beat out Fant (or have him take over at some point during the year as Fant's play is uninspiring or if he gets injured again). 

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27 minutes ago, bitonti said:

this would all make sense on a team with other assets or obligations

the Jets have like 4 players on the roster worth a damn and they are all on their rookie deals (Becton, Williams, Foley and sometimes Mims) 

100 mil in cap space 

Cmon dude i know you're like Woody's unpaid part time accountant but this team can afford Becton and Sewell, easily 

 

All the more reason to not take a RT at #2 overall. I'm ok with trading down but not that far down, and not to take center. I'm also ok with staying at #2 and taking someone there, but not a RT.

I wouldn't avoid drafting a center at all this year but I don't think it's the team's top priority to make it the first position we draft. McGovern is one of those I can see having a bounceback season in 2021; he wasn't the only player to get off to a crappy start after a unique 2020 offseason (plus substandard Jets coaching didn't help, plus Darnold makes any lineman look worse).

Also it's got a 0% chance of happening anyway, seeing how McGovern's entire 2021 salary is guaranteed. It's doubtful JD hoarded 2021 cap space just to throw it away by turning it into dead cap space. 

It has nothing to do with Woody affording both tackles now; duh they can afford them now and 5 years from now technically can fit both under the cap by making major sacrifices elsewhere. But I can't recall any team paying top-3 LT money - presently $22-23MM/year - to two offensive linemen (which is what they'll both get) and still fields a playoff roster, let alone one superbowl bound. One would have to be a savant in later rounds, and if one is such a savant there's no need to use such a high pick to take one's RT.

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18 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I think what @Sonny Werblin is getting at is using the #2 overall pick on a 2nd bookend tackle isn't required to build the most dominant line in football, let alone the best roster we can put on the field. One can build a top (if not the top) OL by using a later 1st round pick (or 2nd rounder, or even a later day 2 pick) at RT. The upside there is that #2 can be used elsewhere. 

Also agree with him that there's a longer-term look at a player than a 4 yr contract + 5th yr option when you're taking a player that early. First and foremost you want elite production but it's unlikely they'll be able to hang on to two elite LTs so we can put one at RT. It's overkill in that the #2 overall pick isn't required to find an elite (or elite-enough) RT. Seems it's a less difficult to find a top 5-10 RT later in the draft than a Bosa-type edge rusher, seeing how there's only 1 that was drafted inside the top 4 in the first place (and the only reason that happened is because he wasn't suited for LT plus Jason Peters being an ageless wonder. 

If you're locked in with an elite LT and are looking for 4 years of "sure thing" production at RT, then ante up for a Jack Conklin in FA and use the #2 overall pick to fill a hole that can't be adequately filled in free agency or later in the draft. Is he as good as Sewell is expected to be? No, but it's really not necessary that he is. Whatever problems Cleveland has this year - or Tennessee the prior 5 years - if RT was among them then they've got the best roster in history and therefore it still doesn't matter.

I completely understand all of that and I don’t even necessarily disagree with any of it, but I have to think that this year, at #2 there really doesn’t seem to be a Bosa-type player (I wouldn’t mind Rousseau but at 2? I dunno). Surtain could be an interesting pick. I just think that at the 2nd pick a great tackle is a huuuge value because it directly effects the performance of other members of the offense. If there was a can’t miss prospect  then I would have zero qualms about taking him and finding a solid RT or G in other rounds. There doesn’t seem to be, from my perspective, so take the great tackle at 2 and build from there since there are more opportunities for other positions in later rounds.  It’s more about what the cards are showing this year. 
 

all this being said, a trade down is preferable to me and we don’t know where JD is going in FA. I’m mainly going with what I know now and that is taking Sewell at 2. It’s unconventional but it would be a massive boon to this offense.

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12 minutes ago, the Claw said:

I completely understand all of that and I don’t even necessarily disagree with any of it, but I have to think that this year, at #2 there really doesn’t seem to be a Bosa-type player (I wouldn’t mind Rousseau but at 2? I dunno). Surtain could be an interesting pick. I just think that at the 2nd pick a great tackle is a huuuge value because it directly effects the performance of other members of the offense. If there was a can’t miss prospect  then I would have zero qualms about taking him and finding a solid RT or G in other rounds. There doesn’t seem to be, from my perspective, so take the great tackle at 2 and build from there since there are more opportunities for other positions in later rounds.  It’s more about what the cards are showing this year. 
 

all this being said, a trade down is preferable to me and we don’t know where JD is going in FA. I’m mainly going with what I know now and that is taking Sewell at 2. It’s unconventional but it would be a massive boon to this offense.

Then you trade down. You don't double up on a position that's already filled, nor reach for a lesser-value position at such a high slot.

I'm ok with trading down if the #2 prospect is Sewell and then a 7-player logjam of roughly equal prospects. In that case the Jets can do well to move down and still get a #3-ish prospect at #6 or #7, and pocket a future 1 or an extra high 2 this year plus another (hopefully high) 2 next year, in the process. 

Also think it's early to say no one else will be worthy of the #2 pick. I wouldn't know it since I know little about these players compared to most here, but I'll just say it's unusual for draft slot projection in December to hold steady through April. 

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The double trade down is most intriguing to me 

Trade down to #3 so conci can grab a LT

trade down again to 4-9 range so someone can grab a QB at #3

we should walk away from that with 4 extra premium picks and still be able to grab someone like Pitts

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Then you trade down. You don't double up on a position that's already filled, nor reach for a lesser-value position at such a high slot.

I'm ok with trading down if the #2 prospect is Sewell and then a 7-player logjam of roughly equal prospects. In that case the Jets can do well to move down and still get a #3-ish prospect at #6 or #7, and pocket a future 1 or an extra high 2 this year plus another (hopefully high) 2 next year, in the process. 

Also think it's early to say no one else will be worthy of the #2 pick. I wouldn't know it since I know little about these players compared to most here, but I'll just say it's unusual for draft slot projection in December to hold steady through April. 

And he didn't play football this year. But it doesn't matter because he became a riskless generational prospect the second it started looking like the Jets were going to have to settle for him.

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Then you trade down. You don't double up on a position that's already filled, nor reach for a lesser-value position at such a high slot.

I'm ok with trading down if the #2 prospect is Sewell and then a 7-player logjam of roughly equal prospects. In that case the Jets can do well to move down and still get a #3-ish prospect at #6 or #7, and pocket a future 1 or an extra high 2 this year plus another (hopefully high) 2 next year, in the process. 

Also think it's early to say no one else will be worthy of the #2 pick. I wouldn't know it since I know little about these players compared to most here, but I'll just say it's unusual for draft slot projection in December to hold steady through April. 

Right tackle is not a position that is easily filled 

This idea that jd can find a Rd 1 rt in Rd 4 is not really based on evidence 

He couldn't even find a right guard in Rd 4 this year 

Look at what the raiders are paying Trent brown that'd what rt are worth 

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On 12/22/2020 at 3:02 PM, bitonti said:

Right tackle is not a position that is easily filled 

This idea that jd can find a Rd 1 rt in Rd 4 is not really based on evidence 

He couldn't even find a right guard in Rd 4 this year 

Look at what the raiders are paying Trent brown that'd what rt are worth 

Totally wrong.

How many RTs were drafted #2 in the country?

Answer: none of them

How many RTs have contracts that average more than $10MM/year?

Answer: 3 of them

Right tackle is arguably the most easily-filled position on the line, and GMs know this & that's why it gets paid the least and typically drafted the lowest (neck & neck with center). Plus Trent Brown got paid that much because he was a 1st team AP left tackle with NE, otherwise he'd never have gotten a contract that high. 

And I'd sooner pay one of those three $14-18MM/year contracts than I'd burn a #2 overall pick on a RT. Particularly while the team is playing its LT under a $4.5MM/year rookie contract like the Jets. But as veterans? Both Becton (and if he's all that, Sewell, too) will be in line for contracts in what is currently the $22-23MM/year range. And nobody does that. No winners, anyway.

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5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Plus Trent Brown got paid that much because he was a 1st team AP with NE, otherwise he'd never have gotten a contract that high. 

And I'd sooner pay one of those three $14-18MM/year contracts than I'd burn a #2 overall pick on a RT. Particularly while the team is playing its LT under a $4.5MM/year rookie contract like the Jets. But as veterans? Both Becton (and if he's all that, Sewell, too) will be in line for contracts in what is currently the $22-23MM/year range. And nobody does that. No winners, anyway.

 

Sewell is the better prospect

Becton would be the RT our Trent Brown

how many RTs were drafted 11 - lots like Lane Johnson & Jack Conklin both went 8 overall 

***

the problem with your thinking is that you assume they will have other stars to pay 

it's a big assumption

like Randy Moss part 2 is just gonna fall in their laps because they need it to happen 

the team doesn't have other options to choose from either internally or externally 

 if they want to build around 2 perennial all pros at OT (5 or 6 years from now) they can do so easily 

they have no other stars to pay

literally zero Jets have any long term money committed to them 

this is not a positional thing is a star thing 

if Sewell was a WR i'd say draft the WR 

you take the all pro hall of fame guy when he comes 

don't make the Quenton Nelson mistake again 

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5 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Thing is - and it's early yet as there's still time for prospect slot shuffling after #1 - I don't know that I'd want them to trade that far down, and then take a ****ing center with the #16 pick any more than a RT with the #2 pick. Also McGovern had a disappointing season - particularly early on - but if center is the first pick of the Jets' 2021 draft then it'll be an extreme disappointment.

The Jets have a ton of high picks, and yes they could accumulate another 1 or 2 by moving down from #2, but they aren't desperate enough for day 1-2 picks to drop all the way down to the middle of the 1st round after going 1-15 or whatever the final record is, let alone for a center.

They're not drafting 13 players because you can't start that many year 1-2 players in 2021 and 2022. Veterans need to be on the field and not just 1 or 2 of them, and you don't trade out of an elite slot to shore up depth. JMO. 

But I totally agree with you on not using the 2nd pick in the country on a RT (I think you meant to say a "dominant O line is not dependent on drafting Sewell" above). The very point of having Fant on a reasonable-enough starter contract (with another half-season of guaranteed money remaining I think), is you can draft someone else later and make him beat out Fant (or have him take over at some point during the year as Fant's play is uninspiring or if he gets injured again). 

I think Center is the most underrated position in football. Having an elite center is really really valuable.

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10 hours ago, bitonti said:

Fields played so poorly last week I'm not sure if he's a first Rd pick anymore

He looked like Geno Smith 

That team also has like 22 players not able to play. Keep in perspective they are 5-0 and Fields is the starter that keeps winning even though a game or two have not been great for him.

Matt Ryan looks great almost every game yet his team loses almost all the time. Winning is the only stat that matters.

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19 hours ago, bitonti said:

 

Sewell is the better prospect

Becton would be the RT our Trent Brown

how many RTs were drafted 11 - lots like Lane Johnson & Jack Conklin both went 8 overall 

***

the problem with your thinking is that you assume they will have other stars to pay 

it's a big assumption

like Randy Moss part 2 is just gonna fall in their laps because they need it to happen 

the team doesn't have other options to choose from either internally or externally 

 if they want to build around 2 perennial all pros at OT (5 or 6 years from now) they can do so easily 

they have no other stars to pay

literally zero Jets have any long term money committed to them 

this is not a positional thing is a star thing 

if Sewell was a WR i'd say draft the WR 

you take the all pro hall of fame guy when he comes 

don't make the Quenton Nelson mistake again 

I wouldn't move Becton to RT just because. Whatever prospects they were on draft day Becton is a LT without flaws other than experience. The last thing I'd do is mess with that just because of body type/mass that suggests he's better-suited to RT than Sewell. 

Also funny you'd bring up Conklin because Tennessee lost him specifically because they couldn't hold both him and Lewan without taking from elsewhere. That's without paying a top tier QB (Bridgewater being a relative bargain for veteran QBs at a mere $20MM per). 

Johnson is also a poor example because the Eagles already had built in one of the following scenarios: the ageless Peters holding him off at LT for the entirety of Johnson's rookie contract, or holding Johnson off even beyond that, or Johnson sliding over to LT to take over for Peters if/when he starts to show his age. But Peters was locked in at $10MM/year, which was a 20% pay drop from his prior contract, as the cap ceiling was about to rise steadily under the new cba.

Neither of those apply to keeping a Becton and Sewell at elite LT money which is now in the $22MM/year range. Which means you're basically building in from day 1 that you're losing one of the two after their rookie contracts are up. 

Quenton Nelson is the extreme exception to the rule -- the only guard in football who's as valuable as a rock-solid LT. Truth is you said the same thing about many other prospects that were anointed by you as future sure thing HOFers before they got drafted, like Jonathan Cooper and Chance Warmack. 

You want a solid RT alongside Becton at LT? Next time don't sit on our hands and sign Fant instead of Conklin when the opportunity is there.

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18 hours ago, johnnysd said:

I think Center is the most underrated position in football. Having an elite center is really really valuable.

I think it's the most overrated OL position by fans.

By teams it's rated about right. Almost zero NFL GMs and HCs think it's underrated, which is why it's the lowest-cost OL position (one has never been taken with a top 10 pick (and I don't think more than a handful have ever been taken in the top half of the 1st round). That's also what can make centers such good draft value in the 20s and 30s, because the best of the best ones slide no matter how good they're supposed to be.

The reason why is a matter of supply and demand. There are only 32 starting centers needed, but it's not a position like QB where there aren't 20 that are worth playing, and you can win without a great (or even without a good) one. I think sometimes we can lose sight of that due to a stupid GM doing such a poor job of choosing one year after year -- just like it can be over-valued, it can also be under-valued, and Maccagnan put on a clinic in the latter.

It's great to have a great center, but it is really not a necessity. I'd be surprised if 0.1% of NFL fans could name the Chiefs' starting center. Very few teams make center their 1st round pick, let alone while they're in teardown/early-rebuild mode, and go on to become champs. Honestly I can't think of a single time it's happened.

Center is just unworthy of such a high pick. Particularly on a poor roster like this with so many more pressing needs and a veteran center already under a guaranteed starter contract for 2021.

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