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Predict the excuses for Sam Darnold's lack of productivity in Year 4


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1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

Almost no one is making excuses for Darnold this year let alone next year.

Do you deny that Ryan Tannehill is a different QB now than when he was with gase?

Do you deny Gase is the worst coach in the league?

Do you deny the Jets have had the worst talent on offense in the league?

He's been garbage and is somewhat shot so he needs to go.  He also never had a chance here.

False, look at the backlash even in this thread about Darnold and on every thread that wants to give him more time or praises him coming off a thoroughly mediocre game manager style performance like last week.

Ryan Tannehill was hurt for a large portion of his time with Gase, but yes he has improved markedly since he was in Miami

I do not deny Gase is the worst HC in the league or that the Jets are devoid of talent

 

All that said I also think the player in his 3rd year shouldn't get a free pass because he's in bad circumstances. We see rookie QBs come into the NFL and play well on bad teams, we see backups all over the league play about as well if not better than Darnold on bad teams, we should expect more of the #3 overall pick. 

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The mythical Ryan Tannehill turnaround should be in full force by then, but what if its not? We will no longer be able to lay blame on Wildman Bates, or Guru Gase so what do you think will be the ne

I've been writing this following post and deleting it for like 2 months straight now.  I'm currently in the most boring webinar I've ever been a part of, so time to let fly. First and foremost, t

so ******* what? everyone here wants the jets to be good, everyone here wants darnold to be good. so you've basically decided that he stinks....GREAT (you are entitled)...now what? why do you feel the

2 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

I think someone needs to calm him down. Sam has happy feet. He looked better in that respect against the Rams but the clock in his head is running fast. I also think a lot of stuff is coaching. If Sam's footwork is still bad at this point, don't you think that is something a coach can correct. When Sam steps into throws, it is night and day from when his feet aren't set. That is a correctable problem and I blame that on Gase. 

He also needs players that will make the tough catch. Barrios dropped a TD against the Rams. Getting him another solid WR will help as well. 

I feel the opposite.  I know Gase is the worst coach of all time in any sport at any level and also satan and hitler, but, do you really think they're not aware of the issue nor trying to work on his footwork with him?  Do you think it's just gone completely ignored?  Isn't it more realistic, that the QB with bad footwork in college, who was a converted LB, who has had bad footwork in the pros for 3 years, just isn't getting it?  Maybe he just can't maintain what he's learned in high stress situations, which is actually an extremely common thing.

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4 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

I feel the opposite.  I know Gase is the worst coach of all time in any sport at any level and also satan and hitler, but, do you really think they're not aware of the issue nor trying to work on his footwork with him?  Do you think it's just gone completely ignored?  Isn't it more realistic, that the QB with bad footwork in college, who was a converted LB, who has had bad footwork in the pros for 3 years, just isn't getting it?  Maybe he just can't maintain what he's learned in high stress situations, which is actually an extremely common thing.

Sam and Gase working on his footwork

Gase: Sam, set your feet and step up when you throw. 

Sam: OK coach. 

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1 minute ago, More Cowbell said:

Sam and Gase working on his footwork

Gase: Sam, set your feet and step up when you throw. 

Sam: OK coach. 

See, I know everyone loves coach bashing - a Jets fan staple - but this is just something you made up (obviously) and you, nor anyone else, know anything about, nor could know anything about.

You've simply decided Gase = Bad, so Sam's long term, consistent flaws are because of Gase, and invented a behind the scenes narrative.

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1 minute ago, TeddEY said:

See, I know everyone loves coach bashing - a Jets fan staple - but this is just something you made up (obviously) and you, nor anyone else, know anything about, nor could know anything about.

You've simply decided Gase = Bad, so Sam's long term, consistent flaws are because of Gase, and invented a behind the scenes narrative.

Do you recall the Pat's game when Sam was mic'd up. There was a sideline conversation between Gase and Sam while he was getting pummeled. It went something like this. OK, just throw a TD and reset. 

Adam Gase. Coaching where football is going. 

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1 minute ago, More Cowbell said:

Do you recall the Pat's game when Sam was mic'd up. There was a sideline conversation between Gase and Sam while he was getting pummeled. It went something like this. OK, just throw a TD and reset. 

Adam Gase. Coaching where football is going. 

Yes. Coaching is what happens on the sideline with the game going on. Football!

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5 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Do you recall the Pat's game when Sam was mic'd up. There was a sideline conversation between Gase and Sam while he was getting pummeled. It went something like this. OK, just throw a TD and reset. 

Adam Gase. Coaching where football is going. 

Yeah, this:

3 minutes ago, Waka Flocka Flacco said:

Yes. Coaching is what happens on the sideline with the game going on. Football!

Maybe Gase should have petitioned the refs for a 6 year time out so that Gase could work with Sam from HS on the stuff he should have learned then.

Remarkable how no coach was able to fix Sanchez, and no coach was able to fix Hackenberg, but Gase is the problem for not fixing Darnold.  I wonder if Jets fans will ever learn from anything.  Actually, I don't wonder that at all.

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4 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Yeah, this:

Maybe Gase should have petitioned the refs for a 6 year time out so that Gase could work with Sam from HS on the stuff he should have learned then.

Remarkable how no coach was able to fix Sanchez, and no coach was able to fix Hackenberg, but Gase is the problem for not fixing Darnold.  I wonder if Jets fans will ever learn from anything.  Actually, I don't wonder that at all.

Actually Sanchez played a Bell of a lot better on Philly than he ever ayed on the Jets. Still was not good enough but he looked lime there was hope. 

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2 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

I think someone needs to calm him down. Sam has happy feet. He looked better in that respect against the Rams but the clock in his head is running fast. I also think a lot of stuff is coaching. If Sam's footwork is still bad at this point, don't you think that is something a coach can correct. When Sam steps into throws, it is night and day from when his feet aren't set. That is a correctable problem and I blame that on Gase. 

He also needs players that will make the tough catch. Barrios dropped a TD against the Rams. Getting him another solid WR will help as well. 

The flaw that concerned scouts the most was his elongated throwing motion, when he was in college. He corrected that his 1st year here. Every scout felt that the few other issues.he had we're very correctable with the proper support around him. He was for the most part a shotgun QB, at USC, and learned rather quickly to take the majority of snaps from under center.

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7 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

You seriously call that coaching. Throw a TD and reset. 

What's he supposed to say: Sam this is how you read a Blitz , see #55 there he's the MLB you need to switch blocking assignments to pickup that guy . C'mon if Sam doesn't get it in year 3 how much is coaching going to help him. 

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8 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Actually Sanchez played a Bell of a lot better on Philly than he ever ayed on the Jets. Still was not good enough but he looked lime there was hope. 

Sanchez had a good game... a bunch of fans said, "SEE," and then his play tanked their playoff hopes.  He threw 11 picks and fumbled 7 times in 9 games.  The following year, he threw 4 picks and 1 fumble in 3 games.

And, sadly, Sanchez was better than Darnold.

 

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Just now, 56mehl56 said:

What's he supposed to say: Sam this is how you read a Blitz , see #55 there he's the MLB you need to switch blocking assignments to pickup that guy . C'mon if Sam doesn't get it in year 3 how much is coaching going to help him. 

This was like his second or third game after he was out with Mono. 

Maybe I should be the HC. I can say that.

We see Andy Reid and Eric B huddled with Mahomes looking at the tablet and talking to Mahomes after each O series. When was the last time you saw Gase sitting next to Sam doing that? 

I know, Sam sucks so why bother. 

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46 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

I feel the opposite.  I know Gase is the worst coach of all time in any sport at any level and also satan and hitler, but, do you really think they're not aware of the issue nor trying to work on his footwork with him?  Do you think it's just gone completely ignored?  Isn't it more realistic, that the QB with bad footwork in college, who was a converted LB, who has had bad footwork in the pros for 3 years, just isn't getting it?  Maybe he just can't maintain what he's learned in high stress situations, which is actually an extremely common thing.

See, I know everyone loves QB bashing - a Jets fan staple - but this is just something you made up (obviously) and you, nor anyone else, know anything about, nor could know anything about.

You've simply decided Darnold = Bad, so Gase's long term, consistent flaws are ignored, and you've invented a behind the scenes narrative.

 

Hey! That was fun!

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2 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Sanchez had a good game... a bunch of fans said, "SEE," and then his play tanked their playoff hopes.  He threw 11 picks and fumbled 7 times in 9 games.  The following year, he threw 4 picks and 1 fumble in 3 games.

And, sadly, Sanchez was better than Darnold.

 

How can you even compare. Sanchez played on the best Jets team I can remember, Darnold is playing on the worst possibly in the history of the league

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4 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

This was like his second or third game after he was out with Mono. 

Maybe I should be the HC. I can say that.

We see Andy Reid and Eric B huddled with Mahomes looking at the tablet and talking to Mahomes after each O series. When was the last time you saw Gase sitting next to Sam doing that? 

I know, Sam sucks so why bother. 

Again I'm not defending Gase ,he gets blamed for everything and anything because he is the HC I get that . 

The romanticized notion here that firing Gase is going to make Sam a Pro Bowl QB is just crazy talk. At this point IMO Sam is the only one that is going to fix Sam. 

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10 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

See, I know everyone loves QB bashing - a Jets fan staple - but this is just something you made up (obviously) and you, nor anyone else, know anything about, nor could know anything about.

You've simply decided Darnold = Bad, so Gase's long term, consistent flaws are ignored, and you've invented a behind the scenes narrative.

 

Hey! That was fun!

Fun, I'm sure.  But, completely inaccurate.

We actually see his play on the field, so nothing is behind the scenes.  We see it today.  We saw it before Gase got here.  We saw it in college.

Nothing is all that different between then and now.

Do better... You're above intellectually dishonest arguments...

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2 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Again I'm not defending Gase ,he gets blamed for everything and anything because he is the HC I get that . 

The romanticized notion here that firing Gase is going to make Sam a Pro Bowl QB is just crazy talk. At this point IMO Sam is the only one that is going to fix Sam. 

I don't expect that at all. Chances are we move on from Sam even if we don't draft a QB this season. I just think we will get a better sense of what Sam is without his hands and feet tied up. 

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7 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

How can you even compare. Sanchez played on the best Jets team I can remember, Darnold is playing on the worst possibly in the history of the league

They were both terrible.  But, Sanchez, occasionally, came up big in a big spot.  Darnold shrinks in them - routinely.

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17 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Fun, I'm sure.  But, completely inaccurate.

We actually see his play on the field, so nothing is behind the scenes.  We see it today.  We saw it before Gase got here.  We saw it in college.

Nothing is all that different between then and now.

Do better... You're above intellectually dishonest arguments...

I completely agree and feel the same for you. That's why I laughed when I saw your post and mimicked it in kind. 

Bottom line is that we've seen Gase for years without Darnold, and he's the exact same guy. We've seen Darnold without Gase and he was better then than he is now. We've seen others leave Gase and go on to have rejuvenations. 

I'm not saying Darnold will become an elite player at this point. I've given up on that. I'm also fully ready to move on given the financial constraints he presents as opposed to draftees coupled with the fact that I truly feel that he's broken.

What I am saying is that it's possible that with better coaching, he can get certainly improve. Giving Gase the benefit of the doubt of "working with him on obvious things" is an intellectually dishonest argument. 

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24 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

I completely agree and feel the same for you. That's why I laughed when I saw your post and mimicked it in kind. 

Bottom line is that we've seen Gase for years without Darnold, and he's the exact same guy. We've seen Darnold without Gase and he was better then than he is now. We've seen others leave Gase and go on to have rejuvenations. 

I'm not saying Darnold will become an elite player at this point. I've given up on that. I'm also fully ready to move on given the financial constraints he presents as opposed to draftees coupled with the fact that I truly feel that he's broken.

What I am saying is that it's possible that with better coaching, he can get certainly improve. Giving Gase the benefit of the doubt of "working with him on obvious things" is an intellectually dishonest argument. 

I'm sorry, but I just can't except the equivalence you're proposing here.

Gase may very well be a bad NFL HC.  I'm not interested in arguing that, and am happy to concede it for the sake of this discussion.  But, Darnold was statistically better in his 2nd year than in his first, and he's sort of the same player each year.  This year is worse, but this year has a harder schedule than last year as well.  Darnold looked less like trash last season playing an extremely easy schedule.  He's not really meaningfully worse - the data backs this up.

As for players improving after Gase, sure it's happened, but the shining example is Tannehill, who was hurt under Gase and also extremely underrated at that time, and now the benefactor of one of the very few actually dangerous rushing attacks in the NFL.  Tannehill was never "worst QB in the league" level though, and thats where Darnold is.

As for working on obvious things, sure, I'm not there either.  But, in order to believe he's not is to assume he actually knows less about football than any of us.  And that's a pretty intellectually dishonest argument.  It's the same one that essentially necessitated believing that Schottenheimer didn't really know how 1st downs worked in order for that criticism to make sense.  The equivalence would be if I were to say that I'd be better at QB than Sam Darnold.  I don't, and I won't.  Adam Gase knows a ton about football, and he knows what he's doing, even if he's a failure at the NFL level.

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23 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

I'm sorry, but I just can't except the equivalence you're proposing here.

Gase may very well be a bad NFL HC.  I'm not interested in arguing that, and am happy to concede it for the sake of this discussion.  But, Darnold was statistically better in his 2nd year than in his first, and he's sort of the same player each year.  This year is worse, but this year has a harder schedule than last year as well.  Darnold looked less like trash last season playing an extremely easy schedule.  He's not really meaningfully worse - the data backs this up.

As for players improving after Gase, sure it's happened, but the shining example is Tannehill, who was hurt under Gase and also extremely underrated at that time, and now the benefactor of one of the very few actually dangerous rushing attacks in the NFL.  Tannehill was never "worst QB in the league" level though, and thats where Darnold is.

As for working on obvious things, sure, I'm not there either.  But, in order to believe he's not is to assume he actually knows less about football than any of us.  And that's a pretty intellectually dishonest argument.  It's the same one that essentially necessitated believing that Schottenheimer didn't really know how 1st downs worked in order for that criticism to make sense.  The equivalence would be if I were to say that I'd be better at QB than Sam Darnold.  I don't, and I won't.  Adam Gase knows a ton about football, and he knows what he's doing, even if he's a failure at the NFL level.

I disagree with the first bolded part, and the reason is because of the second bolded part. I've never made the argument that Gase isn't smart. I have no doubt he is. You don't get to his positions without being smart. But being an OC or HC or primary play caller is about more than that.

Smart and Success don't always go hand in hand. Based on what you've shared over the years, I think you would probably know this better than most given your line of work. I'm sure you see it daily. 

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22 hours ago, Icer said:

The mythical Ryan Tannehill turnaround should be in full force by then, but what if its not?
We will no longer be able to lay blame on Wildman Bates, or Guru Gase so what do you think will be the next excuses?


Joe Douglas didn't get him enough weppinz? 
The Oline with two awesome OT's and maybe some IOL help via FA still suck? 
The new coach/coordinator sucks and can't scheme any WR's open?
It's his 3rd coordinator and 3rd coach you need to give him more time?
He's only 24, he can still get better?

Place your bets!

by mythical you mean the factual and very real turnaround of wasted talent by the Titans and by excuses you mean Adam Gase?

Its not hard but Adam gase wasted Tanne and almost ruined his career if not for Tenn picking him up he was out of the league or at the very best going to be a back up somewhere for a few years like Geno or Sanchez. 

He literally was seen as a disappointment, never being able to put it together and being hurt, gee sounds familiar? In your porr attempt to mock the situation you just pointed out what happened with the best comp available, another QB gase let down. Hopefully Darnold can get one more year or get somewhere else to have a chance. 

I fart on your opinion and this thread

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57 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

I'm sorry, but I just can't except the equivalence you're proposing here.

Gase may very well be a bad NFL HC.  I'm not interested in arguing that, and am happy to concede it for the sake of this discussion.  But, Darnold was statistically better in his 2nd year than in his first, and he's sort of the same player each year.  This year is worse, but this year has a harder schedule than last year as well.  Darnold looked less like trash last season playing an extremely easy schedule.  He's not really meaningfully worse - the data backs this up.

As for players improving after Gase, sure it's happened, but the shining example is Tannehill, who was hurt under Gase and also extremely underrated at that time, and now the benefactor of one of the very few actually dangerous rushing attacks in the NFL.  Tannehill was never "worst QB in the league" level though, and thats where Darnold is.

As for working on obvious things, sure, I'm not there either.  But, in order to believe he's not is to assume he actually knows less about football than any of us.  And that's a pretty intellectually dishonest argument.  It's the same one that essentially necessitated believing that Schottenheimer didn't really know how 1st downs worked in order for that criticism to make sense.  The equivalence would be if I were to say that I'd be better at QB than Sam Darnold.  I don't, and I won't.  Adam Gase knows a ton about football, and he knows what he's doing, even if he's a failure at the NFL level.

Darnold has not played better under gase this is false. I think you just dont understand the stats. If you look at them year to year as a whole I guess if the numbers show it your statement is correct - he has better numbers, increasing year over year, i suppose TD or completion percentage etc Im not sure I didnt look up the numbers but I will just agree - even though I would want to see them, because even this seems unlikely.

But if you want the games and Darnold at the end of season 1 when we was understanding the play action and making reads was making really good plays and playing very well. But when he was playing well it was towards the back end of the season, then comes Gase and all that disappeared over night and we couldn't get a first ******* down. Namely because gase system blow chunks...so maybe Darbold had more TD in year two or whatever you are using to justify your position it, but if you conclusion is Darnold played better in season 2 verse 1 you are in correct. He has done nothing but be essentially Tannehil since gase arrived and that is be shackled into a terrible system and had no help from the coaching staff.

F Gase.

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Also sorry to the OP, Im being a dick. I just disagree. I dont mean to make it personal against you and you could of course be right i just dont see it that way. I find that Gase makes me very bitter and we are coming off a win and I dont want to be like that. I just disagree. F Gase.

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13 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

I disagree with the first bolded part, and the reason is because of the second bolded part. I've never made the argument that Gase isn't smart. I have no doubt he is. You don't get to his positions without being smart. But being an OC or HC or primary play caller is about more than that.

Smart and Success don't always go hand in hand. Based on what you've shared over the years, I think you would probably know this better than most given your line of work. I'm sure you see it daily. 

Sure, but it's football.  This isn't rocket surgery.  He sees the same sh*t we're all seeing, 10 fold.  And I have little doubt he knows the fundamentals and how to convey them - even if there are plenty better at it than him.  Again, I'll buy him being a bad coach.  What I don't buy is that these are fixable issues, at least not on a reasonable timeline.  That Sam's poor footwork, his poor decision making, and his struggles in the pocket, all of which were present before Gase, are the result of Gase's ineptitude.

And frankly, at the NFL level, what everyone seems to miss, is that coaching is about getting 11 different guys to work in sync to execute a play successfully.  There's far less time for football 101.  They're supposed to learn that in high school.  That Sam Darnold didn't is why he's behind, and always will be.  Because, no one else is slowing down so that he can learn to step into a throw.

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9 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Darnold has not played better under gase this is false. I think you just dont understand the stats. If you look at them year to year as a whole I guess if the numbers show it your statement is correct - he has better numbers, increasing year over year, i suppose TD or completion percentage etc Im not sure I didnt look up the numbers but I will just agree - even though I would want to see them, because even this seems unlikely.

But if you want the games and Darnold at the end of season 1 when we was understanding the play action and making reads was making really good plays and playing very well. But when he was playing well it was towards the back end of the season, then comes Gase and all that disappeared over night and we couldn't get a first ******* down. Namely because gase system blow chunks...so maybe Darbold had more TD in year two or whatever you are using to justify your position it, but if you conclusion is Darnold played better in season 2 verse 1 you are in correct. He has done nothing but be essentially Tannehil since gase arrived and that is be shackled into a terrible system and had no help from the coaching staff.

F Gase.

I agree that if we decide that two good games out of 4 at the end of his first season are the REAL Darnold, then of course, everything else is the problem.  But, you have to do a lot of ignoring and selective attention to get there.

Look, I get it.  I watched those two games and thought, wow, if he can build on this, we have a winner.  I wanted to believe that was the real Sam Darnold.  But, more and more data came in, and it wasn't good.  I also fell in love with him at the Rose Bowl, and worked hard to ignore his follow-up 2017 college season, which was, unimpressive, to say the least - 13 picks, 9 fumbles lost, and a complete dud against OSU in the Cotton Bowl.

The fact is, he's played a lot more than two games at the end of his rookie year.  And, even after those two games, he had another dud in New England before Gase arrived.  No one talks about that game when talking about his rookie year.

Blame Gase all you want, but there's enough evidence to suggest that the QB playing bad has always played bad, with the rare bright spot.

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22 hours ago, k-met57 said:

the jets have to figure out a way to fix the situation and fix darnold in the process. he clearly has gotten caught up in the losing, and the lack of talent around him, and has regressed...question is...what needs to change? i really think the coaching thing is the biggest question of the offseason, more then any one player.

See here in lies my dilemma assuming Darnold can play better it may take three years for him to unlearn and then learn good stuff, and that is 3 years too many IMO.....

Darnold is the worst of both worlds.  The fact is Sam has played poor enough for folks to say he sucks and showed "flashes" to say he has the potential like Allen to be good.....

The worst possible position for the Jets as far as the QB goes... :( 

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5 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Almost no one is making excuses for Darnold this year let alone next year.

Do you deny that Ryan Tannehill is a different QB now than when he was with gase?

Do you deny Gase is the worst coach in the league?

Do you deny the Jets have had the worst talent on offense in the league?

He's been garbage and is somewhat shot so he needs to go.  He also never had a chance here.

Sam hasn't played well this year, hasn't--- but Tannehill when he was in Miami had a better running game better WRs & TE and a better OL ---- other than that the situation was exactly the same as Darnold and the Jets the last three years..... :) 

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43 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Sure, but it's football.  This isn't rocket surgery.  He sees the same sh*t we're all seeing, 10 fold.  And I have little doubt he knows the fundamentals and how to convey them - even if there are plenty better at it than him.  Again, I'll buy him being a bad coach.  What I don't buy is that these are fixable issues, at least not on a reasonable timeline.  That Sam's poor footwork, his poor decision making, and his struggles in the pocket, all of which were present before Gase, are the result of Gase's ineptitude.

And frankly, at the NFL level, what everyone seems to miss, is that coaching is about getting 11 different guys to work in sync to execute a play successfully.  There's far less time for football 101.  They're supposed to learn that in high school.  That Sam Darnold didn't is why he's behind, and always will be.  Because, no one else is slowing down so that he can learn to step into a throw.

Again, this is not an or function for me the way it seems to be for you. I'm not saying the blame lies with one or the other. I'm saying Darnold had poor footwork and decision making before Gase, but Gase never helped him out of it. 

The best HCs surround themselves with great assistants to work on the other aspects of the game with their players. I think it's fundamentally irresponsible that Darnold hasn't had a QB coach since Gase was hired. Some of the best QBs in the league credit their QB coaches with helping them with the things that the HC shouldn't be wasting his time on, because as you say, the HC should be about getting 11 different guys to work in sync to execute a play successfully. Furthermore, the implication that a coaching staff is not or cannot be held responsible for maximizing a player's potential is bonkers. We've seen it everywhere throughout the history of the NFL. That's like saying Andy Reid has no impact on Patrick Mahommes because he's more worried about making sure the guard pulls the right way on the play.

My entire point in all of this has always been to point out how far you're willing to reduce a HC and his entire staff's impact on a player just to stomp on Darnold. I've been on record saying we should move on from Darnold, so we're not even at odds there. I believe where we actually differ can be boiled down to this:

- I believe that with better coaching, he can improve
- You believe that coaching has absolutely nothing to do with Darnold and that he will never improve no matter what

Time will tell.  

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14 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Again, this is not an or function for me the way it seems to be for you. I'm not saying the blame lies with one or the other. I'm saying Darnold had poor footwork and decision making before Gase, but Gase never helped him out of it. 

The best HCs surround themselves with great assistants to work on the other aspects of the game with their players. I think it's fundamentally irresponsible that Darnold hasn't had a QB coach since Gase was hired. Some of the best QBs in the league credit their QB coaches with helping them with the things that the HC shouldn't be wasting his time on, because as you say, the HC should be about getting 11 different guys to work in sync to execute a play successfully. Furthermore, the implication that a coaching staff is not or cannot be held responsible for maximizing a player's potential is bonkers. We've seen it everywhere throughout the history of the NFL. That's like saying Andy Reid has no impact on Patrick Mahommes because he's more worried about making sure the guard pulls the right way on the play.

My entire point in all of this has always been to point out how far you're willing to reduce a HC and his entire staff's impact on a player just to stomp on Darnold. I've been on record saying we should move on from Darnold, so we're not even at odds there. I believe where we actually differ can be boiled down to this:

- I believe that with better coaching, he can improve
- You believe that coaching has absolutely nothing to do with Darnold and that he will never improve no matter what

Time will tell.  

The reason I think it's an "or" issue is because Darnold is so exceptionally bad.  This isn't an issue of him not reaching his potential, or at least what we all hoped was his potential.  This is an issue of him being the worst QB in the league right now, and bottom 3 for 3 years running. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm willing to buy incremental improvement vis-a-vis coaching.  What I'm not willing to buy is that Gase is a big enough problem to matter with Darnold.  He needs to make a leap just to get to below-average at this point.  So, I do agree, maybe he can improve with better coaching.  But, if he had any shot of being "Good" to "Great," he'd be much closer to that right now, and then better coaching could help him get there.

Boiled down:

Good coaching may take a QB from below average to average, average to good, good to great, but it's not going to take a QB from worst to good enough.  And that's what we'd need.  So, we reach the point where we agree.  It's time for a new QB.

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4 hours ago, Charlie Brown said:

See here in lies my dilemma assuming Darnold can play better it may take three years for him to unlearn and then learn good stuff, and that is 3 years too many IMO.....

Darnold is the worst of both worlds.  The fact is Sam has played poor enough for folks to say he sucks and showed "flashes" to say he has the potential like Allen to be good.....

The worst possible position for the Jets as far as the QB goes... :( 

its the NFL, i think Darnold could be good next year with the right coaching and supporting cast...i understand at this point its kind of a long shot for him to really have a breakout year...but that also has to do with the fact that this jets team is so low on talent i dont think one offseason is enough to rebuild it. anyways...its a game of whats better? outside of Lawrence i am not convinced any combination of first round QB and low first round pick is better then Darnold + Chase + low first round pick

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On 12/22/2020 at 12:01 PM, JoePNYJ1 said:

So say he balls out which is a possibility, do you pay him the 5th year option (I think its 25 mil)?

It's 9 mill and it's a no brainer to pick up his option at that price regardless of if you plan on keeping him or not. And the Jets have to pick up the option this offseason (after year 3). Not after year 4. Which is also why it's a no brianer

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20 hours ago, Icer said:

False, look at the backlash even in this thread about Darnold and on every thread that wants to give him more time or praises him coming off a thoroughly mediocre game manager style performance like last week.

Ryan Tannehill was hurt for a large portion of his time with Gase, but yes he has improved markedly since he was in Miami

I do not deny Gase is the worst HC in the league or that the Jets are devoid of talent

 

All that said I also think the player in his 3rd year shouldn't get a free pass because he's in bad circumstances. We see rookie QBs come into the NFL and play well on bad teams, we see backups all over the league play about as well if not better than Darnold on bad teams, we should expect more of the #3 overall pick. 

Problem is how much improvement is even possible. Tannehill had a couple of 4,000 yard seasons under his belt. There was some evidence there that he had more to give. Darnold is literally the worst starting QB in the league. A huge leap for him would be to play as the 25th best starter. QBs don’t go from worst to top 8 (upper quartile), at least no where near enough that an NFL GM should be investing in that happening 

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13 hours ago, TeddEY said:

I feel the opposite.  I know Gase is the worst coach of all time in any sport at any level and also satan and hitler, but, do you really think they're not aware of the issue nor trying to work on his footwork with him?  Do you think it's just gone completely ignored?  Isn't it more realistic, that the QB with bad footwork in college, who was a converted LB, who has had bad footwork in the pros for 3 years, just isn't getting it?  Maybe he just can't maintain what he's learned in high stress situations, which is actually an extremely common thing.

Ya know awhile back there was a thing with Jordan Palmer that struck me.. he was talking about Josh Allen and how 'coachable' he is.. he spoke about Allen took instruction, made changes and they stuck. That he was committed to making the change in his mechanics so he kept working when they were done and did it like Palmer had taught him when Palmer wasn't there. 

Palmer then went on to say that there were other guys who did all the right things when you were with them, but they weren't really committed. They were "going through the motions" of trying to change their mechanics by showing up during the day to work with him, but that's where it stopped. As soon as their sessions would end, they'd go right back to the way they always did it. So as soon as they went back to their teams and didn't have him right there harping on it, they were back to their bad habits as well. 

It kinda strikes me that is a lot of how I feel about Sam. He looks the part, he acts the part, but I don't feel that deep in his soul he wants it so badly he can't sleep some nights. 

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