Justin Fields vs Trevor Lawrence

[Jet Nut]

On 12/28/2020 at 9:25 AM, predator_05 said:

Fields is nice. I said it before, but it bears repeating...he's the safest QB in this draft. Might not become elite, but he'll be a decent pro. He's like Brady, reliable. 

If hes like Brady hes more than reliable.  He'd be the GOAT, sign me up!

I said it all along, I wanted Lawrence, hes the safest QB in the draft but if we didnt wind up picking first I'd take Fields and I'm sticking to it.   No QB is guaranteed to become elite, all QBs have to develop into NFL QBs, Fields has all the tools 

[section314]

23 minutes ago, bitonti said:

ill grant you this Fields wins against Nebraska, Penn St and Rutgers are more impressive than Wilson beating Coastal, UCF and whoever 

my impression those were some leaky defenses and he had all day 

the Ohio State offensive line chops wood by the way. at least 3 of those guys are instant starters in the NFL right now 

Let me ask you this, and you've made it a pretty big point in how you've looked at Fields. If Wilson was the OSU QB vs Northwestern, in the biggest game of the year for them, you think there's a snowball's chance in hell that the coach eliminates the pass and just runs the ball? Me either.

[56mehl56]

5 minutes ago, section314 said:

I'm talking side by side, making all the same throws, arm speed and strength, ball placement, footwork, mechanics. When the scouts see him doing this with all the other guys, I believe it will really elevate him. Either you have it or you don't. You can see the other stuff, how he reacts to the blitz, etc, on the tape.

I really don't think there's much difference between Lawrence/Fields/Wilson in any of these areas. 

[section314]

1 minute ago, 56mehl56 said:

I really don't think there's much difference between Lawrence/Fields/Wilson in any of these areas. 

You may be right. But my point was when all of them are doing the drills together, it will be easier for scouts to see it first hand.

[QB1]

3 minutes ago, section314 said:

Let me ask you this, and you've made it a pretty big point in how you've looked at Fields. If Wilson was the OSU QB vs Northwestern, in the biggest game of the year for them, you think there's a snowball's chance in hell that the coach eliminates the pass and just runs the ball? Me either.

They ran for 300 at 10 yard a pop, they’d be morons not to 

[56mehl56]

4 minutes ago, QB1 said:

They ran for 300 at 10 yard a pop, they’d be morons not to 

Exactly, if Clemson did that , they'd be saying the team was afraid to let Lawrence beat them so Clemson ran Etienne all day - Dabo is a genius. Its like one of the Chiefs games recently were the D was dropping 6-7 men in coverage , the Chiefs just ran the ball and threw short passes all day. Reid/Mahomes said we'll take what they give us.  

[section314]

1 minute ago, QB1 said:

They ran for 300 at 10 yard a pop, they’d be morons not to 

Fair point, and it's certainly one way to look at it.

[kdels62]

A few things are clear after reading this thread

1) some people don’t understand value as it pertains to drafting 

2) if you watch Fields vs. Indiana and think positive thoughts, please watch again and reevaluate. I don’t think Fields is bad but that tape is very concerning.

3) Some don’t understand that Lawrence is generational not because he’s the best ever but because he has all the traits and is likely to manifest those traits in the pros. Fields also has great traits but is likelihood of success is lower. 

4) Anybody advocating for Penei Sewell would probably be the Jets GM because clearly you hate success

[Beerfish]

31 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

I really don't think there's much difference between Lawrence/Fields/Wilson in any of these areas. 

This is one time when I feel the combine drills actually matter.  Seeing QBs side by side going through some drills.  I recall really liking Desaun Watson before the draft but then out came a bunch of comments about him having poor velocity on his throws compared to others.

So I watch the combine drills and I think, who cares about the radar gun this guys throws look just as good as any other QB out there and he is way more accurate and you can see he is a leader out there.

Too bad so many QBs shuck off the combine these days just to work out in the highly controlled pro day environment.

[Beerfish]

5 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

A few things are clear after reading this thread

1) some people don’t understand value as it pertains to drafting 

2) if you watch Fields vs. Indiana and thing positive thoughts, please watch again and reevaluate 

3) Some don’t understand that Lawrence is generational not because he’s the best ever but because he has all the traits and is likely to manifest those traits in the pros. Fields also has great traits but is likelihood of success is lower. 

4) Anybody advocating for Penei Sewell would probably be the Jets GM because clearly you hate success

2)  Watch Lawrence vs LSU in last years nat champ game, the most important game of the year.  Even watch him vs ohio state the week before.

3) Generational means once in a generation as in once in every 20 to 25 years best.  That means Lawrence is going to be better than Mahommes, Watson, Josh Allen,  etc etc.

4)  Who are you advocating for?  We can;t draft Lawrence.

[prime21]

My gut says to take Fields but since my wife is always telling me I'm wrong then I will do the opposite and say trade down. 

 

[Larz]

Rosen is the most pro ready QB and allen and Jackson suck

[kdels62]

1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

2)  Watch Lawrence vs LSU in last years nat champ game, the most important game of the year.  Even watch him vs ohio state the week before.

3) Generational means once in a generation as in once in every 20 to 25 years best.  That means Lawrence is going to be better than Mahommes, Watson, Josh Allen,  etc etc.

4)  Who are you advocating for?  We can;t draft Lawrence.

Were any generational prospects the best QB in the league? Elway... no, Luck... no... Peyton... yes, they were all still generational prospects. They were all at least good. That’s the generational meaning behind Lawrence, he’s unlikely to be a bust and likely to at least be very good. I’ve watched Lawrence plenty. He’s very good and will probably be very good. He has a big flaw in his delivery, he has some spells of inconsistency but they are rare. 

I’m advocating for drafting any of the top QB prospects. They are all worthy of the top 10. Wilson and Fields are worthy of the pick 2 regardless of who else is on the board. 

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

3) Generational means once in a generation as in once in every 20 to 25 years best.  That means Lawrence is going to be better than Mahommes, Watson, Josh Allen,  etc etc.

It does not mean that Lawrence is going to be better than Mahomes, Watson or Josh Allen.  It means he is a better prospect coming out than them.  Jeff George was a better prospect than Aaron Rodgers or Favre.  Legitimately.  It didn't make him a better NFL QB.

[QB1]

 

[JohnnyLV]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

If hes like Brady hes more than reliable.  He'd be the GOAT, sign me up!

I said it all along, I wanted Lawrence, hes the safest QB in the draft but if we didnt wind up picking first I'd take Fields and I'm sticking to it.   No QB is guaranteed to become elite, all QBs have to develop into NFL QBs, Fields has all the tools 

Man I have watched all of his games now. I just do not see it. I think his bust potential is huge.

[56mehl56]

Just now, johnnysd said:

Man I have watched all of his games now. I just do not see it. I think his bust potential is huge.

Just curious what don't you see. Will it be the lazy analysis repeated that he can't read a defense and holds the ball too long. I watch his tape and a see a slightly larger framed Russell Wilson. 

[bitonti]

3 hours ago, section314 said:

Let me ask you this, and you've made it a pretty big point in how you've looked at Fields. If Wilson was the OSU QB vs Northwestern, in the biggest game of the year for them, you think there's a snowball's chance in hell that the coach eliminates the pass and just runs the ball? Me either.

WIlson is a far better thrower and in fact there's a ton to like about this prospect from a QB film perspective. he's got a way better arm than Chadwick ever did, and he probably runs 4.5ish on his best day, which is still pretty damn fast. 

I just don't believe he can hold up to the NFL level of punishment -  his previous injuries have him skinny and slight because he couldn't work out while recovering from torn labrums in both shoulders

I don't see a Russell Wilson/Kyler Murray mini-tank i see a normal human male feels more like drew brees top of rd 2 value not 2 overall value. it also feels like Wilson could use another year of seasoning and a senior bowl but his camp knows there's not enough tread on his tires to risk it 

he's like a QB1 but with RB1 career expectations. Anyone really see Zach Wilson surviving a decade? or two like Flacco/Vinny T.

the game requires being a Rare specimen, Zach Wilson looks like a dude who would sell Porches at Daniel Larusso's dealership and give out bonsai trees afterward 

 

[bitonti]

50 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Will it be the lazy analysis repeated that he can't read a defense and holds the ball too long. 

it's not lazy analysis. The guy holds the ball way WAY too long. 

Jets fans are experts in QB's who can't get the ball out, it's kind of been our thing for the last decade  or more 

put it another way if Fields was bringing all his linemen with him I'd take him at 2 overall because he's not going to get Ohio St vs Rutgers type of time in the NFL 

[56mehl56]

Just now, bitonti said:

it's not lazy analysis. The guy holds the ball way WAY too long. 

Jets fans are experts in QB's who can't get the ball out, it's kind of been our thing for the last decade  or more 

put it another way if Fields was bringing all his linemen with him I'd take him at 2 overall because he's not going to get Ohio St vs Rutgers type of time in the NFL 

Yes and I'm sure you got that from watching one of two games ( vs Indiana or NorthWestern). Understand the context of those two games and then talk to me about Rutgers etc..... 

[bitonti]

1 minute ago, 56mehl56 said:

Yes and I'm sure you got that from watching one of two games ( vs Indiana or NorthWestern). Understand the context of those two games and then talk to me about Rutgers etc..... 

the context is Indiana had 35 returning letter winners and one of the best defenses in the NCAA 

NW defense wasn't too far behind 

Clemson's defense is better than both, even better than Bama's most people believe 

Friday night's game is huge 

Fields can either prove himself elite and have a signature win on national TV or.. well.. ya know

I don't make the rules of the game I just try to predict the results 

[56mehl56]

Just now, bitonti said:

the context is Indiana had 35 returning letter winners and one of the best defenses in the NCAA 

NW defense wasn't too far behind 

Clemson's defense is better than both, even better than Bama's most people believe 

Friday night's game is huge 

Fields can either prove himself elite and have a signature win on national TV or.. well.. ya know

I don't make the rules of the game I just try to predict the results 

And OSU was missing 3 starting OLmen for the Indiana game and a total of 22 players for the NW game. Take away 3 starting OL from Clemson and lets see how Trevor does - oh that's right we've seen that movie already even with all their Oline against LSU last year . Trevor stared down his wr's and held on to the ball too long.  Its kind of funny when a talented D game plans against a QB they can neutralize them. 

And don't worry even if Fields plays well against Clemson there will still be the same rhetoric flying around. 

[QB1]

The Indiana game wasn’t a bad game. He had two absolutely bone headed plays where he tried to throw a ball while getting tackled, but outside is that it was a  dominant performance throwing and running.

[bitonti]

6 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

And OSU was missing 3 starting OLmen for the Indiana game and a total of 22 players for the NW game. Take away 3 starting OL from Clemson and lets see how Trevor does - oh that's right we've seen that movie already even with all their Oline against LSU last year . Trevor stared down his wr's and held on to the ball too long.  Its kind of funny when a talented D game plans against a QB they can neutralize them. 

And don't worry even if Fields plays well against Clemson there will still be the same rhetoric flying around. 

proving TL sux (!) is not the same as proving Fields is good

2 overall is too high to take a guy who needs that much excuses to explain why he played bad

i like fields i just don't like him at 2 

the good news for Fields is it is all in front of him with this Clemson game he can shut me and everyone else up and prove he's worth that kind of draft capital and money 

wins against Rutgers aren't going to do it, and not showing up whenever there's a good defense certainly won't do it 

scouts  judge these guys on their best opposition not their worst 

the plus side is he could crap out so terribly he's there at the Jamal Adams pick or the top of rd 2 and at that point these endless excuses are easier to stomach 

he is a value pick at some point it's just not at 2 

not with the evidence so far 

also, and this isn't necessarily his fault, but the Ohio State quarterback of it all doesn't exactly help him either with the Haskins'  situation

Haskins being such a jackass, it's a bad look for his program trying to get a team to buy Fields at high first round prices 

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, johnnysd said:

Man I have watched all of his games now. I just do not see it. I think his bust potential is huge.

I didnt see Murray or Wilson as NFL QBs either.  

Fields has the athleticism, the arm, the accuracy with size.  He has to learn how to read defenses, has to develop into a NFL QB just like all college QBs not named Lawrence.  

I dont see Fields having any more bust potential, whatever that mean, than any other college QB not named Sunshine.  Any top draft pick at a position that fails 90% of the time has bust potential 

[bitonti]

4 minutes ago, QB1 said:

The Indiana game wasn’t a bad game. He had two absolutely bone headed plays where he tried to throw a ball while getting tackled, but outside is that it was a  dominant performance throwing and running.

he's the QB of Ohio State with 3 deep studs at every position 

yes Indiana was a legit defense 

also... they should have waxed Indiana 

[56mehl56]

Just now, bitonti said:

proving TL sux (!) is not the same as proving Fields is good

2 overall is too high to take a guy who needs that much excuses to explain why he played bad

i like fields i just don't like him at 2 

the good news for Fields is it is all in front of him with this Clemson game he can shut me and everyone else up and prove he's worth that kind of draft capital and money 

wins against Rutgers aren't going to do it, and not showing up whenever there's a good defense certainly won't do it 

scouts  judge these guys on their best opposition not their worst 

 

 

Evaluating a QB based on a solitary game is fools gold at best - exhibit A Sam Darnold . All draft picks need to be evaluated on a full body of work not just cherry picked games that fit a fans agenda. If Fields has a bad game against Clemson , the context of the game needs to be factored in. Is Clemson's team just that much better than OSU , Just like LSU's team was that much better than Clemson last year. If you say well its the biggest game , biggest stage nothing else matters that argument needs to be applied against the "generational" talent as well.  

[56mehl56]

8 minutes ago, bitonti said:

proving TL sux (!) is not the same as proving Fields is good

2 overall is too high to take a guy who needs that much excuses to explain why he played bad

i like fields i just don't like him at 2 

the good news for Fields is it is all in front of him with this Clemson game he can shut me and everyone else up and prove he's worth that kind of draft capital and money 

wins against Rutgers aren't going to do it, and not showing up whenever there's a good defense certainly won't do it 

scouts  judge these guys on their best opposition not their worst 

the plus side is he could crap out so terribly he's there at the Jamal Adams pick or the top of rd 2 and at that point these endless excuses are easier to stomach 

he is a value pick at some point it's just not at 2 

not with the evidence so far 

also, and this isn't necessarily his fault, but the Ohio State quarterback of it all doesn't exactly help him either with the Haskins'  situation

Haskins being such a jackass, it's a bad look for his program trying to get a team to buy Fields at high first round prices 

Complete nonsense. If a player could be a FQB teams wouldn't care if he pushed his grandma down the steps. 

[Jet Nut]

30 minutes ago, bitonti said:

it's not lazy analysis. The guy holds the ball way WAY too long. 

Jets fans are experts in QB's who can't get the ball out, it's kind of been our thing for the last decade  or more 

put it another way if Fields was bringing all his linemen with him I'd take him at 2 overall because he's not going to get Ohio St vs Rutgers type of time in the NFL 

So the expert analysis is because he has a great Lin in front of him he has to have a great line to be successful? 

He holds the ball to long at time, because he can and still have around a 70% comp percentage for his career.

Its college, its football and sometimes you dont wax teams you should, the simple answer is blame the QB.  Z Wilson should have waxed Coastal Carolina.  Trevor Lawrence should have lit up Virginia Tech.  Happens

[bitonti]

1 minute ago, 56mehl56 said:

Complete nonsense. If a player could be a FQB teams wouldn't care if he pushed his grandma down the steps. 

FQB is often an ownership level decision 

that's a bigger job that just playing football

that guy becomes the face of the franchise 

not to say Fields is a good or bad person i don't know but the league will apply guilt by association Terrelle Pryor, Braxton Miller etc 

it's not a court of law these are 31 billionaires and the city of Green Bay making business decisions about what product they want to sell.

[bitonti]

1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

So the expert analysis is because he has a great Lin in front of him he has to have a great line to be successful? 

He holds the ball to long at time, because he can and still have around a 70% comp percentage for his career.

no one used the word expert

im saying if Fields came with his 3 best linemen that's closer to 2 overall value 

 

 

 

[56mehl56]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

FQB is often an ownership level decision 

that's a bigger job that just playing football

that guy becomes the face of the franchise 

not to say Fields is a good or bad person i don't know but the league will apply guilt by association Terrelle Pryor, Braxton Miller etc 

it's not a court of law these are 31 billionaires and the city of Green Bay making business decisions about what product they want to sell.

Of all the crap you want to sell about not taking Fields at #2 this is about #755672 on the list. 

[Jet Nut]

23 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

And OSU was missing 3 starting OLmen for the Indiana game and a total of 22 players for the NW game. Take away 3 starting OL from Clemson and lets see how Trevor does - oh that's right we've seen that movie already even with all their Oline against LSU last year . Trevor stared down his wr's and held on to the ball too long.  Its kind of funny when a talented D game plans against a QB they can neutralize them. 

And don't worry even if Fields plays well against Clemson there will still be the same rhetoric flying around. 

Wasnt his HC out of the Indiana game also? 

[Jet Nut]

8 minutes ago, bitonti said:

FQB is often an ownership level decision 

that's a bigger job that just playing football

that guy becomes the face of the franchise 

not to say Fields is a good or bad person i don't know but the league will apply guilt by association Terrelle Pryor, Braxton Miller etc 

it's not a court of law these are 31 billionaires and the city of Green Bay making business decisions about what product they want to sell.

Which is why Haskins never should have been drafted where he was or if drafted should have sat and learned what it means to be an NFL QB, every aspect of being the face and leader of a team.  He came out as an immature baby who didnt get it, wasnt a leader in any way and was called lazy.  The exact opposite of what is said of Fields, who is said to be a leader, who reportedly is one of the hardest workers on the team, works incredibly hard at improving on his weaknesses.  Doesnt guarantee success, but isnt Haskins

[56mehl56]

2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Which is why Haskins never should have been drafted where he was or if drafted should have sat and learned what it means to be an NFL QB, every aspect of being the face and leader of a team.  He came out as an immature baby who didnt get it, wasnt a leader in any way and was called lazy.  The exact opposite of what is said of Fields, who is said to be a leader, who reportedly is one of the hardest workers on the team, works incredibly hard at improving on his weaknesses.  Doesnt guarantee success, but isnt Haskins

Using his standards we should never draft a player from Florida because Aaron Hernandez went there.