If a respected team makes a strong offer for Sam

[FidelioJet]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

I understand fields at 2. Zach wilson is closer to the top of Rd 2 than 2 overall 

Wilson will be the best pro.  Jets should take him at 2.

I think we all over estimate "value" or where someone should go.  If you believe he's the most likely to succeed at the NFL then you take him.

[bitonti]

1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

Wilson will be the best pro.  Jets should take him at 2.

I think we all over estimate "value" or where someone should go.  If you believe he's the most likely to succeed at the NFL then you take him.

Wilson has a great arm but a frightening injury history. You saying "he's going to be great" is not really a fact its more like a prediction.

Here's my prediction the next shoulder surgery he has, they punch a card and he gets a free foot long sandwich at any participating salt lake city area subway restaurant 

The guy has been in shoulder surgery rehab so much he makes Chad Pennington look like Adrian Peterson 

[More Cowbell]

8 hours ago, AFJF said:

Mentioned this on the JN podcast the other day and wanted to pitch it to the board.  Through several tweets from prominent insiders, here are a few things I've seen in terms of predicting what the Jets might be able to get for Sam.

Rap sheets said they an probably get a second-round pick

Breer said they should be able to get a 2 and a 3.

Matt Miller (yes, I realize he's not in the same league as Rap and Breer) said to expect at least 10 teams to bid on him.

 

If it ends up being 10 teams (or even in that ballpark), you have to figure one or two of them will be respected franchises, like the Saints for instance.

 

So if you're Joe Douglas, and you need a quarterback, does the fact that there is so much interest in Sam make you stop and wonder what it is they see in him that you don't?  I mean, if Sean Payton calls and says "Drew is retiring, so we'll give you one or two premium picks for him", doesn't that make you wonder why you're getting rid of him?  

I think they move on from Sam and I understand why, but if everyone who says "he sucks" and "he's trash" were correct, there wouldn't be anyone willing to give up anything for him.  But if it's an offer like some are predicting....

 

It's  pretty simple. You look at where you are in the draft and you look at the quality of QB's that will be on the board when your pick comes up and if you feel good about spending that pick on the QB available  in the draft. If I can still spend my first round pick on the player I feel is the right pick for  me and spend a second or even a second and third on Sam who is probably a better risk than who I would be drafting at QB there, it's not wrong to go that direction.  Of course you are probably signing him to a one year deal with an option to extend but I could see it happening.  

Gase was that bad at developing  Sam. All the new team has to do is get him to improve. Sam is at such a low point,  it's  almost like the Jet team itself. There is nowhere to go but up. 

[Chrebetfan80]

8 hours ago, Defense Wins Championships said:

Sam was the 47th out of 50th rated QB this year. He stinks. 

No GM will offer a 2nd round pick for him lol when he'll be released next off-season before his 5th year option and can be had without WASTING valuable draft picks. 

He'll go for a 5th. At best a 4th if JD hits the lottery. 

If the rumors I've heard personally and from people here I trust or true... Then your assumption of value is wrong.  

Especially if in this case there are multiple teams looking to add him, generally that drives up value.  

[FidelioJet]

7 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Wilson has a great arm but a frightening injury history. You saying "he's going to be great" is not really a fact its more like a prediction.

Here's my prediction the next shoulder surgery he has, they punch a card and he gets a free foot long sandwich at any participating salt lake city area subway restaurant 

The guy has been in shoulder surgery rehab so much he makes Chad Pennington look like Adrian Peterson 

Then why a 2nd?  

If you feel that way he should be undraftable.

[Irish Jet]

If Douglas gets a 2nd for Simple Sam then I will erect his statue myself. And speaking of erect...

[More Cowbell]

8 hours ago, Defense Wins Championships said:

Sam was the 47th out of 50th rated QB this year. He stinks. 

No GM will offer a 2nd round pick for him lol when he'll be released next off-season before his 5th year option and can be had without WASTING valuable draft picks. 

He'll go for a 5th. At best a 4th if JD hits the lottery. 

Taking this position means you believe Adam Gase got the most possible out of Sam, that nobody else could have possibly gotten more out of him, that Gase consistently  put Sam in positions to succeed. 

Is this what you truly believe, or do you believe that Gase destroyed this kid like I do. 

[More Cowbell]

8 hours ago, Rhg1084 said:

But if those 10 respected teams had the option of Fields on a rookie contract or Sam coming into his 4th year which choice do you think they’d take? 

There is no choice if you are the Jets. You take Fields. Sam is a reclamation  project. The best thing for Sam will be a new team, with new coaches, with new players. Thst will instantly be beneficial  for Sam. Keeping Sam here you are goi g to have to handle him in such a way where you don't do further damage and ues, we damaged this QB.

[Integrity28]

9 hours ago, Defense Wins Championships said:

Sam was the 47th out of 50th rated QB this year. He stinks. 

No GM will offer a 2nd round pick for him lol when he'll be released next off-season before his 5th year option and can be had without WASTING valuable draft picks. 

He'll go for a 5th. At best a 4th if JD hits the lottery. 

Do us a favor, don’t start a new thread when you have to walk this back. Kthzbai

[Integrity28]

4 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

There is no choice if you are the Jets. You take Fields. Sam is a reclamation  project. The best thing for Sam will be a new team, with new coaches, with new players. Thst will instantly be beneficial  for Sam. Keeping Sam here you are goi g to have to handle him in such a way where you don't do further damage and ues, we damaged this QB.

Not to argue, but the Jets could very well present Sam with about ALL of these parameters except the new uni. 

[More Cowbell]

Bad edit

[More Cowbell]

5 hours ago, jgb said:

I don’t buy the hype personally. There has never been a situation in NFL history that I am aware where a QB who was so bad for so long went for so high. Why is Darnold special/different from the dozens/hundreds(?) of players before? Add to the fact he’s on last year of his rookie deal and — I don’t believe — he will be acquired as presumptive starter.

Of course, maybe I’m wrong and the league feels that this team recently and Gase are such historical jokes that they can’t trust how we deal with anyone. Guess we will know soon.

[DonCorleone]

9 hours ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

If you are Joe Douglas, you have to have confidence in your evaluation of Sam Darnold. Don't be reliant on the rest of the league. 

Amen. Thank you for posting this. 

[J_Smith]

If we keep Sam i think our best case scenario is looking like the bears with trubisky. Might sneak into the playoffs, but no one considers you an actual contender 

[More Cowbell]

4 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Not to argue, but the Jets could very well present Sam with about ALL of these parameters except the new uni. 

It's  not the same as a new team. We are the Jets. We still do things the way the Jets do things. That hasn't  changes and won't  change until we totally  remove ownership.  Sam is better off getting away from the Jets and working with an organization  that does things differently than we do. 

[Bowles Movement]

5 hours ago, doitny said:

where have you been for 3 years?

ok maybe Sam isn't a headcase. but maybe he is. what if Sam really isnt that good. would you risk a 2 to find out?

the way this trade most likely goes down is on incentives. they give us a 5th rd pick in 2022. 

now if Sam plays X amounts of the OFF snaps i will make it a 4th. if he does good like gets 30 TDs and over 3k yds i will make it a 3. 

now maybe a team might go 4-3 and then a 2. but no way does a team give you a 2 with no strings attached after what Sam has did the last 3 years.

and if your wrong and Sam cant turn it around you just lost a 2nd rd pick. that is stuff that people lose there jobs over.

so if you want that #2 i will give it to you, it Sam proves he worth it. and there cant be no project. no sitting on the bench for a year. he must start right away cause he a FA after 2021. 

and theres another problem. he a FA after 2021. what if a team like Wash gives us a 2 and then Sam decides for leave. might want to play back in Cali. you could do a sign and trade. but would Sam do that one year out from FA. how much would a team trading for him be willing to pay a QB who had 9 TD and 11 INTs. 

 

 

Maybe the better question is where have you been?
Sam has been inconsistent but has played very well at times.   Do you remember Rodgers and Watt both telling him he would be a star in this league after playing him?
This year a lot was expected from Sam.   A coming out year.  It didn’t happen.  He admittedly looked bad.  Was it lack of coaching? Loss of Preseason ? Lack of continuity with his receivers?  I don’t know but he has had success and played well at times and compiled some nice stats when the Jets won 6/8 to finish last season.  Teams looking at him see some success despite being dealt a horrible hand.

[Integrity28]

2 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

It's  not the same as a new team. We are the Jets. We still do things the way the Jets do things. That hasn't  changes and won't  change until we totally  remove ownership.  Sam is better off getting away from the Jets and working with an organization  that does things differently than we do. 

?‍♂️ He’s best off being surrounded by competence - that is what he needs and can be achieved here - but it’s not what you want. Your post is about what you want. 

[Patriot Killa]

9 hours ago, Defense Wins Championships said:

Sam was the 47th out of 50th rated QB this year. He stinks. 

No GM will offer a 2nd round pick for him lol when he'll be released next off-season before his 5th year option and can be had without WASTING valuable draft picks. 

He'll go for a 5th. At best a 4th if JD hits the lottery. 

This is a very narrow minded statement. He’s a 23 year old former #3 overall pick who has flashed on occasion. There is always a coach who thinks he can fix what’s broken, mend what’s tore and give his franchise a solid QB without having to draft one in the first round. There are also teams(NOLA Saints) who are in cap hell & cannot sign a Prescott, Stafford, etc. and will have to find another way to comb the field for a QB. JD isn’t taking, shouldn’t take & will not be offered only a 4th at best. Lmao nah bruh, I refuse to believe that.

[nycdan]

Everyone arguing that Sam can't improve under a better system, coach and surrounding cast should at least consider this:

 

This was a massive leap forward in every statistical way for Allen.  Not even a different coach.  They brought in Diggs, and something clicked in his 3rd year.  It's really unusual, but there it is.  Some team would not be crazy to think they could do something similar with Sam who has all of the tools, but may just need the coach, system and cast to tap into it.  Ironically some of the same people saying Sam is toast based on his performance here also argue that Mahomes would have sucked here too.

Would I bet my job on Sam doing better?  Probably not.  But would I bet my job against it?  Nope.

[bitonti]

27 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Then why a 2nd?  

If you feel that way he should be undraftable.

If those are the only 2 choices he's not on my board at all 

But the draft is not about getting Russell Wilson at 1 

It's about recognizing the value of the player and not overpaying 

[More Cowbell]

5 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

?‍♂️ He’s best off being surrounded by competence - that is what he needs and can be achieved here - but it’s not what you want. Your post is about what you want. 

What makes you think this team is competent? That is to be seen. We showed last season we are as incompetent as we always have been. Other than Gase and the OC being removed, what has changed? Firing Gase did not take competence, it was common sense. 

[#27TheDominator]

There is a right way to stand in an elevator? 

[Chrebetfan80]

2 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Everyone arguing that Sam can't improve under a better system, coach and surrounding cast should at least consider this:

 

This was a massive leap forward in every statistical way for Allen.  Not even a different coach.  They brought in Diggs, and something clicked in his 3rd year.  It's really unusual, but there it is.  Some team would not be crazy to think they could do something similar with Sam who has all of the tools, but may just need the coach, system and cast to tap into it.  Ironically some of the same people saying Sam is toast based on his performance here also argue that Mahomes would have sucked here too.

Would I bet my job on Sam doing better?  Probably not.  But would I bet my job against it?  Nope.

I would think its a pretty fair assumption that Sam, if traded to a team with a better staff and better talent, won't be as bad as he was this year.  In fact I think its fair to assume that at worst he'll turn out to be a good nfl starter.  But the question is how do you feel about the other QB's in this draft outside of Lawrence.  Do you think they can be a Top 5 guy, a difference maker type QB?  Sam I think can move on to another team and be a solid top 15 QB in the league,  Teams that may want to trade for him i think are comfortable assuming that, they're trading with the idea that at worst he's solid, at best he realizes his full potential.  

[nycdan]

Just now, Chrebetfan80 said:

I would think its a pretty fair assumption that Sam, if traded to a team with a better staff and better talent, won't be as bad as he was this year.  In fact I think its fair to assume that at worst he'll turn out to be a good nfl starter.  But the question is how do you feel about the other QB's in this draft outside of Lawrence.  Do you think they can be a Top 5 guy, a difference maker type QB?  Sam I think can move on to another team and be a solid top 15 QB in the league,  Teams that may want to trade for him i think are comfortable assuming that, they're trading with the idea that at worst he's solid, at best he realizes his full potential.  

I am much higher on Sam's ability to rehabilitate his game than most here.  I actually think that he has top-15 potential in the right situation.  However, I would have absolutely taken Lawrence and traded Sam.  No hesitation. 

As to the rest, I'm very intrigued by Fields, but he's the only one that makes me want to switch.  I am not as high on Wilson or any of the others as a 'draft him - trade Sam' pick.  But I'll freely admit I'm not an expert on evaluating college QBs and I could be very wrong.  I really liked Josh Rosen after the A&M game and never could have predicted his outcome.

[#27TheDominator]

5 hours ago, doitny said:

where have you been for 3 years?

ok maybe Sam isn't a headcase. but maybe he is. what if Sam really isnt that good. would you risk a 2 to find out?

the way this trade most likely goes down is on incentives. they give us a 5th rd pick in 2022. 

now if Sam plays X amounts of the OFF snaps i will make it a 4th. if he does good like gets 30 TDs and over 3k yds i will make it a 3. 

now maybe a team might go 4-3 and then a 2. but no way does a team give you a 2 with no strings attached after what Sam has did the last 3 years.

and if your wrong and Sam cant turn it around you just lost a 2nd rd pick. that is stuff that people lose there jobs over.

so if you want that #2 i will give it to you, it Sam proves he worth it. and there cant be no project. no sitting on the bench for a year. he must start right away cause he a FA after 2021. 

and theres another problem. he a FA after 2021. what if a team like Wash gives us a 2 and then Sam decides for leave. might want to play back in Cali. you could do a sign and trade. but would Sam do that one year out from FA. how much would a team trading for him be willing to pay a QB who had 9 TD and 11 INTs. 

 

 

I don't see any of this conditional pick sh*t even being in the conversation.  At that point we are waiting another year.  We will have to sign another backup - Flacco or some other geezer that will likely cost a pretty penny.  Just keep Darnold at that point and hope he nets something on the comp pick formula.  As you state, to get anything back on the "conditions" he'd have to be considered a starter right away, which limits the teams I'm willing to take that deal from.  I want picks in the 2021 draft.  Better a 3rd now than maybe a 2nd next year.  Enough with this I'd gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today bullsh*t.  If we wait it should be for something decent, not pixie dust.

[Augustiniak]

3 minutes ago, nycdan said:

I am much higher on Sam's ability to rehabilitate his game than most here.  I actually think that he has top-15 potential in the right situation.  However, I would have absolutely taken Lawrence and traded Sam.  No hesitation. 

As to the rest, I'm very intrigued by Fields, but he's the only one that makes me want to switch.  I am not as high on Wilson or any of the others as a 'draft him - trade Sam' pick.  But I'll freely admit I'm not an expert on evaluating college QBs and I could be very wrong.  I really liked Josh Rosen after the A&M game and never could have predicted his outcome.

i don't think darnold has top 15 potential, he's not an inherently accurate passer and still forces too many throws and locks onto wrs.  he could be a serviceable qb somewhere better.  FWIW i always thought rosen would suck, he's got a weak arm was always overrated as a dynamic playmaker.  

as far as the draftable qbs go, i think fields has all the momentum but i worry about his ability to make quick reads, maybe that's silly.  maybe he's good at it but doesn't have to do it much at OSU.  i think wilson could be a star, he seems to 'play fast' and i buy into him having a fast processor.  gets the ball out quickly too.  i think wilson plays much faster than someone like darnold who seems to need things to unfold slowly for him to operate. 

[whodeawhodat]

29 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Not to argue, but the Jets could very well present Sam with about ALL of these parameters except the new uni. 

This is true but our timeline is not the same as say SF.  All indications point to a reset at the QB position.  I know I am in the minority here but I would rather draft sewell and draft offense unless JD thinks that one of these QBs have what it takes to be "the man".  If you can get a 2 and a 3 for Sam, I say do it and draft a project to sit behind flacco with a young offense that will learn the NFL next year.

[jgb]

55 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

lol definitely could be wrong. But any GM who spends a 1st or 2nd on Darnold can look forward to getting the boot if/when he shows himself to be the same guy he was at USC and with the Jets. A 4th makes a lot of sense for a lot of reasons. A 3rd possibly if Jets give some lower picks back in the deal.

At least no one is actually still claiming we'll get multiple 1s for Sam ala Jamal. That's a small victory ha ha.

[y2k8]

1 hour ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Herein lies the problem with the Jets placing a higher value on keeping Sam solely because other teams are interested in him -- The Jets have had Sam for 3 years and know him way better than these other teams. So, if the Jets can not trust that their own evaluation of Sam is better than other teams', there is a huge problem with the Jets self-scouting.

Also, it's not like Sean Payton will say, "we're gonna offer a two premium picks because we think Sam's main problem is blankity blank and can be fixed if we just work on his yada yada yada." The fact is whatever another team sees in Sam that they think is fixable will not be disclosed in trade talks and it may very well be something the Jets are aware of and have not been able to fix. In reality, it may not be fixable. And even if it is fixable, if it is not fixable by the Jets what does it matter?

So, the Jets have to place their own value on Sam, based on what they know about the player having had him for 3 years. This value should not be altered simply because other teams that know him not as well value him higher. IMO, if the Jets get offered 2 premium picks, Sam will be traded.

Totally agree, but I have long thought that if New England ever inquires about one of your players you should just hang up the phone and re-evaluate said player immediately.

[Jetsfan80]

48 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

There is a right way to stand in an elevator? 

Generally facing the door and buttons seems to make sense.  But that's just society telling you what to do, man.  

[Integrity28]

58 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

What makes you think this team is competent? That is to be seen. We showed last season we are as incompetent as we always have been. Other than Gase and the OC being removed, what has changed? Firing Gase did not take competence, it was common sense. 

You’re changing the argument.

[ZachEY]

Indeed, what if the NFL's worst starting QB over the last 3 years is actually good?

[Waka Flocka Flacco]

1 minute ago, TeddEY said:

Indeed, what if the NFL's worst starting QB over the last 3 years is actually good?

SAFE SPACE

[genot]

10 hours ago, Defense Wins Championships said:

Sam was the 47th out of 50th rated QB this year. He stinks. 

No GM will offer a 2nd round pick for him lol when he'll be released next off-season before his 5th year option and can be had without WASTING valuable draft picks. 

He'll go for a 5th. At best a 4th if JD hits the lottery. 

Douglas would hang up the phone if he was offered that. Doesn't matter. Darnold will be back. Football is a team game. It's not tennis

[HighPitch]

The jets destroyed sam and set him up to fail.

I doubt it could ever work here with him. It is not uncommon that a challenged player goes to a new environment and becomes reborn though and thats what I think is best case scenario for his career. I am SURE momma darnold feels the same way.

 

We need a qb at 2. We can still get a great wr and Olineman with pics 2 and 3. This seems like the most logical and beneficial path imo